Tell HN: Burnout is bad to your brain, take care

[tuyguntn]

I am depressed and burned out for quite some time already, unfortunately my brain still couldn't recover from it.

If I summarize the impact of burnout to my brain:

- Before: I could learn things pretty quickly, come up with solutions to the problems, even be able to see common patterns and see bigger underlying problems

- After: can't learn, can't work, can't remember, can't see solutions for trivial problems (e.g. if your shirt is wet, you can change it, but I stare at it thinking when it is going to get dried up)

Take care of your mental health

[burningChrome]

Early on in my career (I was a late bloomer and already in early 30's) as a developer, I got burnt out pretty bad twice. After the second time and teetering on a third, I knew I had to do something to change what I was doing and how I managed my work load.

I just focused on getting MY stuff done and that was it. I stopped taking on other's people work. I stopped taking on more work once I got my stuff done. I would do exactly what a Sprint called for. Nothing more, nothing less. If I finished early with my tasks, I would stretch out the time and just tell the scrum master I was close, but not done yet, but always finished on time. I basically just did what was required of me. I wasn't out to impress anybody, I just became "Mr. Dependable" on any of the teams I worked on.

This was the approach that changed everything.

Now, some ten years later? I'm never too high or too low. I still do the same thing, I still just do what is asked of me and that's it. 5pm every night? Laptop gets turned off. Friday at 6pm? Laptop is off for the entire weekend. I turn it back on right before my meetings on Monday. Separating my personal life from my work life with a hard delimiter was paramount.

I found out that if you don't protect your sanity and your own well being, people will take advantage of you and your time and it will never end. Once you break the cycle and get that time back for yourself? You'll make sure you never willingly give it to someone else ever again.

Protect yourself. Protect your sanity. Once you lose it, like OP said, it's very, very hard to get back.

I hope this helps someone else struggling to break this cycle.

[kody → burningChrome]

I'm really curious, how do you factor in time to learn ("up skill")?

I'm a self taught dev with 2 young kids. I've always had a healthy approach to work, but now I'm feeling quite a lot of pressure to learn new things on my own time, whether to make sure I'm prepared for the interview circuit if I get laid off, or to patch my skills that are needed at work.

I'm starting to feel burnout creep in, getting an hour of study in the morning, taking care of family, and then working 8 hours.

I appreciate your insight.

[Baeocystin → kody]

You do it during work hours. Period.

Your brain only has so many truly 'on' hours in a day, and it's already less than 8. Trying to burn even more in the pursuit of complex knowledge isn't just robbing Peter to pay Paul, it's eating the seed corn and wondering why your harvest failed.

It's a scary thing to realize, and can be hard to stick with. But limits are real, and respecting them gets more work done in the long run than not.

[livearchivist → Baeocystin]

100%

This is so important. I have a 3yo and wife, I currently work for a series-A startup - It's incredibly easy to do things out of hours, answer messages, train, lab things up, etc... But at the end of the day that is a part of my career.

So except for when I'm traveling for work, I don't do a GD thing past 5pm, unless i choose to. When I choose to, it's likely because a lot of my team is in IST time zone rather than EST.

When you're a family person, your job is to be there for yourself first, your family second, your other commitments after that.

I have a weekly 4:30p friday call. Would i rather have that at 1:30p? Yes. But i've chosen to work remotely in Ohio instead of move to Cali like the last four companies have asked. So I take that friday 4:30p call.

But you better believe that i check out until monday after that.

During the week I'll take odd hour calls for my counter-parts in IST, but that's nearly entirely out of courtesy than necessity.

Take care of things in the following order: 1. You, as a human, holistically 2. Your family, spouse first, kids second 3. Your work 4. Everything else

It's reduced a huge portion of stress from my life by doing this.

[jaredhallen → livearchivist]

You've said it twice, and I'll reiterate it a third time. Your own well being has to come first. You can't deliver on the rest of your commitments if you neglect your own needs. Being a martyr does not serve those who depend on you.

[antimemetics → jaredhallen]

If you can’t love yourself how are you going to love someone else?

[devanil → antimemetics]

Can I Get an Amen?

[sandeep1998 → livearchivist]

I am trying to move to a country where this is a reality... I just need a life outside of work (and some quiet and peace and fewer people around me all the time) I want to be able to sit down in the park, stroll around the neighbourhood, ride cycle, swim, cook, etc without the worry of job looming over my head all the time. I want to live for myself.

[djsamseng → sandeep1998]

Come to Siem Reap, Cambodia. Start your day with a sunrise walk to the gym ($40/month). Grab an omelette and coffee for $3. Head home by 9am before it gets too hot. Work/learn/read/nap in the AC until 5pm. Take a sunset bike ride through the temples of Angkor Wat. Grab dinner downtown at the open breeze restaurants while people watching ($2-3 for a healthy meat and vegetable stir fry, $1 for pancakes, $2 for fried rice). Grab some drinks ($1) and play billiards with some friends. Head home to your modest 1 bedroom apartment for the night ($300/month). Not to mention the locals are really friendly here and if you’re in to helping out in some of your free time, you will be greatly valued and appreciated!

There’s a few other expenses and some cons of living here but some research and YouTube videos will help you figure out if it’s right for you. And of course you can ask me :)

[pnut → sandeep1998]

I say this as a person who emigrated away from the US in my late 30's...

The hedonic treadmill exists in all countries, stepping off it is a personal priority and discipline regardless of where you live.

[ddingus → Baeocystin]

Very high value, lucid advice.

My experiences were similar, however I must add when your day job is not related to skill building activities, you may find your "on" time to be greater.

Still, be careful.

In my case, my day job was manufacturing and I was an effective prototype mechanic. Loved the work, hated the pay, so...

I used a percentage of my free time learning more computer related things.

When the time was right, I was ready to take the jump.

Landed nicely, and have no regrets.

Now, later in life I find the dynamics above are in play and we all ignore them at our peril.

[beaglesss → Baeocystin]

All hours spent with kids under 5 is basically 'on'. Which would leave most mothers I've met at zero 'on hours' left for work. A reason for the 'gender pay gap'?

[BobaFloutist → beaglesss]

Childcare is skilled, necessary labor, and should be subsidized by the government at the level that food production is. Maternity leave and paternity leave in the United States are also woefully insufficient.

[beaglesss → BobaFloutist]

Proposal rejected by society. You will raise the child into a productive citizen, then society will tax the shit out of them while yelling "we paid our property taxes for our shit schools, so we deserve a slice."

Then the social security cut gets distributed regardless of preference to who raised the kids who now pay the taxes.

It's a classic tragedy of the commons, offload almost all the cost on moms then socialize the taxed gains.

[BobaFloutist → beaglesss]

It works great until women have control over whether or not they have children.

[JamesBarney → nunez]

Most of the research actually supports what op says. When you adjust for industry and such the vast majority of the remaining gap is due to motherhood. So much so that many researchers in the field call it the motherhood pay gap as opposed to the gender pay gap. Childless women make about the same as men (within 2-3%, some show higher, some lower).

Now is the fact women take over the majority of the childcare and are more likely to take off to raise their children misogyny? Depends on your definition and perspective.

[nunez → JamesBarney]

> Now is the fact women take over the majority of the childcare and are more likely to take off to raise their children misogyny? Depends on your definition and perspective

Yes, given that:

- In conservative circles, there is a strong expectation that a woman's chief job is to be a mom,

- Many businesses are lead by conservatives, and

- Many states (at present) are run by conservatives and enact policy to make this so (anti-abortion laws being the biggest example)

Regardless, whether women want to enter motherhood or not should be irrelevant when determining employee compensation.

Many of us developers justify our sky-high compensation packages in today's remote-first working culture by the "value" that we provide relative to the profit margins produced by our work.

If this is true, then this should apply equally apply to working moms since them being moms doesn't take away from the value they bring to the table. Moms don't stop being great programmers once they bring children into this world!

However, if we're going to use _availability_ as a compensation-affecting performance metric, then dads should also be paid less since, in an ideal world, they are just as involved in parenting as moms are.

Given that being paid less due to being a parent is de facto illegal in the US, then I think that any argument for suppressing women's wages is either uninformed or in bad faith.

(As an aside, we don't and won't have kids, but I am a huge advocate for equal-length parental leave; nobody is at their best when they're working on two hours of sleep because the baby's always crying through the night.)

[JamesBarney → nunez]

I also think leave for father's should be as long as leave for mothers so families can decide how they divy up the childcare in a way that works for them.

> Regardless, whether women want to enter motherhood or not should be irrelevant when determining employee compensation.

Whether a women wants to enter motherhood is irrelevant to her compensation. But how much time, effort, and experience she brings to the job is relevant to her compensation. And despite there being plenty of mothers who bring more of those things to their job than their childless counter parts, most people cannot bring as much time and energy to bare on work as they could if they were childless given how we currently divide up childcare. If you're on partner track at a lawyer, you're expected to bill 2000 hrs a year which means working 3000. It's very hard to continue to work 3000 hrs a year while raising a kid and the lack of billable hours will effect bonuses and promotions. How could it not?

[hunterrrrrr → nunez]

Completely agree. And it’s just one more creepy weird thing that companies allow to be normalized. If you refuse to work in these conditions, you’re “burnt out” or you’re “a bad fit” or whatever other bizarre messaging folks want to astroturf on social media hangouts.

[room4 → nunez]

From the HN guidelines:

Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes.

Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity.

[huijzer → nunez]

Yes! And Christianity to this day is still very and subtly misogynistic. For example, why does a woman need to give up her last name when marrying?

[zxexz → huijzer]

Not arguing that Christianity and other religions aren't misogynistic - I mean, seriously, there is a borderline unfathomable amount of serious misogynistic baggage there.

However, on the point of last names, I feel the urge to point out that I personally know several, very devout and traditional, catholic couples who kept their last names in wedlock.

[rpastuszak → zxexz]

We have records of patronymics as old as the writing itself. It's hard / impossible / pointless to decouple religion from culture though.

On a slightly different note: Hammurabi's name means literally "his uncle is a healer" (related to Arabic عم (ʕamm) meaning paternal uncle, and the latter part to rabbi).

I my mind there's a mildly funny* movie where Hammurabi, the person who created/codified the foundations of our law, someone remembered for 1000s of years... was an insecure overachiever. "You conquered the Elamites? And Larsa? Oh, that's cute my boy. Now get a real job like your uncle who is a doctor!"

* (for me, my bar is low)

[Earw0rm → zxexz]

Yep, look at the Spanish naming system for example. It doesn't get much more Catholic than that, but they combine both partners' family names.

[chopsuey5540 → Earw0rm]

Sure, but traditionally only the man’s name gets passed down to children

[badpun → huijzer]

How’s that related to Christianity?

[acdha → badpun]

It’s not a strict requirement but it was part of the culture when the Bible was written, and fits with the general hierarchy which is specified in various scriptures – the most common justification cited is in Ephesians where there’s an injunction for wives to be submissive to their husbands. Coupled with the way the Bible assumes the traditions of the time (e.g. sons taking their father’s name, the patriarchal line of inheritance, etc.) it’s common to many Christian cultural traditions even though there are exceptions.

[badpun → acdha]

It was part of our culture before Christianity emerged, it remained part of the culture afterwards. Seems like Christianity didn’t have much to do with it.

[acdha → badpun]

It wasn’t “our” culture unless you still live in the Bronze Age but I’d think of it more as a historical artifact which was preserved in part due to reinforcement based on that religious text. If Christianity did not give that text special significance you wouldn’t have millions of people saying they _must_ continue the practice.

[badpun → acdha]

Culture is a continuity that builds upon the past - in that sense it's our culture. Also, I've never ever heard anyone say that wives need to take names of their husbands, because the Bible says so. Is that an American thing?

[acdha → badpun]

> Culture is a continuity that builds upon the past - in that sense it's our culture

Cultures share history but the whole point is that they’re not continuous. You specified the pre-Christian era, and there have been many significant changes since then which any common definition of the term would consider discrete boundaries.

> Also, I've never ever heard anyone say that wives need to take names of their husbands, because the Bible says so. Is that an American thing?

It’s not specific to the US but there are certainly American churches which have strong opinions on this point. One thing to remember is that these things aren’t just the literal text of the scriptures in whatever version of the Bible they use but also the collection of interpretation and custom around it, and people have a history of interpreting scriptural text differently based on a position which they want to support.

[mejutoco → huijzer]

There are places with a Christian tradition where that is not the case. For instance, Spain.

[parpfish → kody]

If you’re learning a thing that you actually do for your job (eg, new language or tech), do the studying and training during work hours

[Bayko → kody]

Unfortunately when it comes to preparing for interview leetcode is pretty much required at all stages. For that the way that works for me is to never let go of it. I will solve 2 3 problems over a week even when I have a job. That downtime at work when you are at home or waiting for the next meeting...just leetcode. I absolutely hate LC and hate the fact that it is omnipresent but now no longer fear it. Except Dynamic programming. That thing can go f*ck itself. But ya now when it comes to LC I am "always" or rather one week away from interview ready.

[AnimalMuppet → Bayko]

> Unfortunately when it comes to preparing for interview leetcode is pretty much required at all stages.

I have never had a leetcode-style interview in 40 years. (I may have had one such question, maybe - hard to remember for sure.) So, no, it is not required at all stages.

Disclaimer: I'm in embedded systems, which is very different from FAANG.

[dheera → AnimalMuppet]

The weird thing is I've gotten everything from no code to entry level to ultra-hard coding questions in FAANG-level interviews.

I also have a hunch I've gotten easier coding questions when an existing team member referred me to hiring for their own team.

[giantg2 → AnimalMuppet]

Funny enough, I just had my first LeetCode question ever... for an internal job posting. Wtf

[toomuchtodo → giantg2]

That is dystopian level hilarious.

[giantg2 → toomuchtodo]

We normally do minor fizz buzz code screens internally. But that's just a small test to see how much of the tech you know, like if you were switching from say Python Lambdas to Angular front-end. And it's mostly to see about how you approach the problem.

But some of the internal postions do it differently. My favorite was a mock code review on a PR that had intentional flaws. Then you'd call put what was wrong and how to fix it - not just pure code but also requirements, tests, commit messages, etc.

LeetCode is different though. The rating and stuff. Even the interface... I still don't know what it's doing behind the scenes to run the code and feed inputs and what those inputs are. Believe it or not, this LeetCode interview wasn't my worst internal code screen. I once had one that HR said to bring my laptop and use any language I wanted. When I got there, the manager handed me a Mac (which I've never used), told me to use Angular to create a page with a table (hadn't used Angular at that point), and told me to do it in Webstorm (most teams were still using Eclipse at that time, so no experience here either). I managed to Google my way to a working table, but cut the interview short when he wanted me to style it. It's and internal posting. I clearly know the basics and got something working, even in the worst possible interview scenario where I didn't know the tools at all. Surely I can learn the rest (this was a midlevel posting, not even senior).

[BehindBlueEyes → giantg2]

I'd interpret that as they wanted actual usable work from the interview, I've had a few of those "technical tests" that boiled down to "if we get enough applicants to add to this code we won't need to hire any of them"

[taurath → giantg2]

You can be assured that the person who actually got the job worked on a Mac in Angular using Webstorm and that nobody wants to entertain ideas that their methods of interviewing are in any way tipping the scales.

[charles_f → giantg2]

Interesting, I had the same thing a few years ago while interviewing internally for a manager position, and from a VP

[dheera → giantg2]

Can't they just look at your code commit history ...

[giantg2 → dheera]

They absolutely could.

On the opposite side, I usually skip teams for their repo so I can review them. Are there test cases built out? Do they have east to follow code design, or descriptive comments? Do they have a normal level of abstraction, or are there multiple layers of interfaces for not real reason? I recently declined a position because the team was building a UI, didn't have a CMS, didn't have any real rests, and the code looked like a bit of a mess. It didn't help that the languages (Go, React) were completely new to me, so I wouldn't be able to make an impact on improving these issues.

[hirvi74 → dheera]

But then where is the opportunity for ego stroking?

[parpfish → AnimalMuppet]

I’ve run into a leetcode once over the course of five job hunts. There’s always some sort of screener that may use a leetcode style interface, but the problem is something like fizzbuzz/write a function to say if a number is prime/etc.

The interview is about finding the obvious resume frauds and seeing if they can communicate their problem solving process, not finding a genius that’ll invent new algorithms

[SoftTalker → AnimalMuppet]

Also never interviewed at FAANG and never been asked to write code in an interview

[swatcoder → SoftTalker]

I'm with you and the GP, but I suspect all three of us have pursued a balanced and satisfying career instead of the one with top of market compensation.

Some of the folks here don't see alternative options when FAANG compensation is some integer multiple of what the rest of the industry has been supporting for the last 40+ years, and I don't entirely blame them for that. I'm not surprised when some later find themselves miserable and feel like they're trapped by golden handcuffs and insufferable bureaucracy, but I understand how they got there.

[SoftTalker → swatcoder]

Yes, I’ve been in tech for 30+ years and just recently broke 6 figures in salary. But I live where a nice house is under $300K and I take satisfaction in living frugally.

[copperx → SoftTalker]

That's interesting. What's your line of work?

[SoftTalker → copperx]

Webdev in various stacks, database design, programming and administration, linux administration. Mostly in higher ed with a few forays into short-lived startups.

[batshit_beaver → swatcoder]

As someone currently in the process of trying to move from a cushy, interesting startup job to a soulless FAANG for that compensation multiple, the ONLY reason I'm doing it is because I have a young kid now. I wish there was another way, but it is genuinely impossible to provide a comfortable level of family life on a startup salary, unless your partner is also in tech and is ok with not being a stay at home parent.

[sadcherry → batshit_beaver]

> I wish there was another way, but it is genuinely impossible to provide a comfortable level of family life

It's all a matter of perspective, isn't it? It's basically the top 1% speaking. And you can't tell me that the other 99% have miserable lives.

> unless your partner is also in tech and is ok with not being a stay at home parent.

Stay at home parent is a choice, and a pretty expensive one. One does not have to choose that and can still live a comfortable life. Many women (and let's face it, we're unlikely discussing the man staying at home for the next 7-15 years, eh?) even prefer not to interrupt and/or basically end their careers because of parenthood.

Americans often look to Europe, claiming that these things are so much easier there, which might be true, but at least as much is it a matter of personal choice as well.

[BehindBlueEyes → sadcherry]

Can confirm that the 99% have very comfortable family lives, lower stress jobs, plenty family time... (based on having many lower income friends) Bottom n% is a different story, but a FANG salary is not a necessity unless your lifestyle choices and personal expectations make it so.

[eropple → batshit_beaver]

There are other companies, too. I work at, statistically speaking, Your Phone Company, and they don't pay FAANG money but they certainly pay a lot better than I was doing at startups.

Caveat: I don't live in the Bay Area, though the Boston area isn't exactly cheap.

[toomuchtodo → eropple]

I hope it’s a great experience there, have friends in the risk/cyber areas and have heard nothing but good things.

[eropple → toomuchtodo]

Thanks! It's an interesting place, and I think the technical quality depends pretty heavily on what org you're in. But the quality-of-life is very high and I'm mostly enjoying myself.

[quern → batshit_beaver]

I did the same for the same reason , but I moved from a soulless FAANG to a high frequency trading company. This is another integer multiple.

To my pleasant surprise, the HFT is more rewarding (not just in comp) than the FAANG was. At least for now, or that's what I keep telling myself.

[kody → Bayko]

Funny enough I had an interview today with a dynamic programming whiteboard problem. I feel like if I hadn't been putting in my leetcode hours I would have totally bombed

[TheKarateKid → kody]

Apparently Google and finance firms are the ones that still ask dynamic programming. If any non-FAANG company is asking that, especially startups, I'd tell them to get off their high horse.

[brailsafe → kody]

I'd agree with what others have answered (do it on company time if it's company related), but although I don't have kids, I've burnt out quite badly 2 or 3 times. Apathy is the scar tissue you get from burnout, it's helpful in avoiding it after recovery, but it's best if you don't include your family in that. If possible (probably if you try hard enough) I'd suggest separating the things you want or feel you should learn into the things you're learning for yourself and things you're learning for your job, and then allocate a deliberate day or significant block to just that. Ask for help from your family if possible in letting you occasionally just isolate and immerse. Jon Carmack does this, and although I'm just an average guy or w/e, I've found it to be the only way to give hard subjects the attention they actually require. For example, the Nand2Tetris project, Swift programming, Postgres, they really take some tinkering time and deliberate practice. Nothing super valuable comes from passively digesting podcasts while driving imo either, or walking down the street, or buying groceries, so take those airpods out if you're doing it, and let your brain take a break in those moments.

[reaperducer → brailsafe]

Ask for help from your family if possible in letting you occasionally just isolate and immerse.

My family wouldn't understand that, so I play hookie.

Twice a year, I schedule a vacation day that I don't tell my family about. I act as if I'm going to work like normal, but I spend the day at the art museum or sitting in the park reading, or something else that doesn't involve anyone else.

[dyingkneepad → reaperducer]

And then some day someone will recognize you somewhere, tell your wife "hey, I saw reaperducer at the park today!", and then she will think you're cheating on her.

[brailsafe → reaperducer]

I mean, that sounds great, I can totally get behind this in a way.

My big thing is being able to protect my sense of autonomy, even when I'm responsible for things or obligated toward others. If I literally can't take a day away from my phone or without telling people where I am, I've found myself in a risky space emotionally. So I'll occasionally leave the phone at home, or go hiking from sun up to after nightfall alone with the phone off, only maybe telling someone (including my spouse). People need their own space.

In addition to my previous comment, burnout seems to happen when you're working a lot on something you don't really control the outcome or reward of, along with the presence of some force that gradually erodes your sense of autonomy. If you feel like someone else is the arbiter of not just most of your energy, but all of it, over a long enough period of time, you'll grow to resent yourself, those people, and the work.

[rramadass → kody]

Advice from another thread : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41462980

[croshan → burningChrome]

This sounds depressing. I’m sorry that you had that experience.

It’s a frustrating position to be in, and you can feel quite helpless.

In my experience, it’s less about “do only what’s asked”, and rather “say no”.

I.e. explain “I can do X, but if I do that then Y will suffer, and Y is a priority”. (Y being another company priority, or even your own mental health). Stated in these terms, it’s easier to negotiate your time with your coworkers.

[pjerem → croshan]

Thing is that may not depend on you.

I did this but I was surrounded by coworkers who were stupidly running straight into burnout themselves and said yes to anything.

Well, upper management felt I wasn’t doing enough in comparison and pressured/harassed me. Ultimately, I were the first to burn out.

Of course, in hindsight, I should have left way before it happened, but when you are in, you have no hindsight. Sometimes you can’t grab the surrounding toxicity before being hurt.

[culi → burningChrome]

This feels impossible for someone who is early career. How could you balance growth with this? You could say "if your job isn't providing you with opportunities to grow, look for a new job or talk to your manager". But that takes extra time as well. You need to work on portfolio/side projects with in-demand skills you don't currently use, talk to managers, apply to jobs, network, read, etc.

[xtracto → culi]

I'm 43 now and you couldn't pay me enough to do several things at job now, like working saturdays (normal here in mexico), working from an office, doing death marches and whatnot.

But, I did all that and more in my 20s as IC and 30s as a leader. I helped 3 startups go up and now 2 of them are unicorns (That was pure luck but doesn't change my view).

My point is, there is a time for everything. I've hired a couple of JRs at my startup nowadays, and I tell them: what you lack of experience, I want you to cover by will.

Guys at 20s want to eat the world. The energy and motivation is amazing. Those are the years to run and hustle like a demon. However, I would never do that in a big Corp environment (like Goog, IBM, MS, etc) because you will only be abused by middle manager.

But as 1st, 2nd or 3rd engineer in a startup. I'll do it all again.

[crossroadsguy → burningChrome]

I have a slightly different aspect (as I was the complete opposite of that) of this from my life - but it's not a disagreement.

So I have always had such a nice (some would say epic) work-life balance as far as "hours" and "availability" go. After a (forced) break from work, and exploring health related help professionally, I came to know I was clearly burnt out. I was told high number of "hours" working or "visible or quantifiable work load" don't necessarily have to be present for a burn out. There are other factors at work which cause stress/etc and they are often more insidious than the typical "load" (not to reduce the ill effect of the typical load^). And were those signs abundant in my life and work!

It was quite shocking. I always used to think that with my kind of work-life balance at least burn out was never going to be a problem.

^ It was added by them - those typical load/etc almost always cause mental health damage so I should not consider them okay all.

[ahaferburg → crossroadsguy]

Your comment is very vague to the point of not containing any information. I would sum it up as "there are factors other than hours spent when it comes to burnout". What are those factors?

[setopt → burningChrome]

> Laptop is off for the entire weekend. I turn it back on right before my meetings on Monday. Separating my personal life from my work life with a hard delimiter was paramount.

That sounds like a good philosophy for work-life balance. I sometimes work evenings or weekends, but it might be a bit different since I don’t work at a company but at a university, so my work hours are a bit flexible. I have had burnout before, especially during Covid home office.

A big improvement for me was:

- Regardless what’s going on, have at least one day per week when I don’t work at all (usually Saturday) and never pull all-nighters (no work after midnight);

- Stop syncing work email to any mobile devices, and close the mail app on my laptop outside standard working hours. (This does wonders for destressing.)

- Track the amount of time you “try to work” (e.g. how long you have your work laptop open). Note that this is not the same as tracking e.g. “focus hours”. Keep an eye on it and don’t let it accumulate too much per week.

[BossingAround → setopt]

> Regardless what’s going on, have at least one day per week when I don’t work at all (usually Saturday) and never pull all-nighters (no work after midnight);

Why are you working during the weekend and after work hours?

[rawbot → burningChrome]

> I just focused on getting MY stuff done and that was it. I stopped taking on other's people work... I would do exactly what a Sprint called for...

This is my reason for burnout, opposite of your example. There's a thin balance doing more work because you enjoy, and doing it because managers are pushing you to do it. And now that I JUST do my job and what I'm asked to do, I have lost a lot of the drive that I loved about being a developer and engineer, making life kind of dull. Weird thing is that it is the job description that put me into this place, with no room for growth, and the search for new jobs has been dry, year after year of searching.

I traded my sanity for a big chunk of my life's enjoyment. That ain't great either.

[BigJono → rawbot]

My theory is burnout comes from a lack of autonomy.

If your "do the minimum" is having complete control over a module and implementing features as slow as you can without pissing anyone off too much, you're going to have a great time.

If your "do the minimum" is picking up the bare minimum number of Jira cards in a sunshine and roses "teamwork makes the dream work" team where everyone is responsible for every line of code but nobody knows more than 5% of the codebase, your mental health is going to go straight down the toilet, because nothing is more stressful than working with over-complicated code you didn't write, and the less cards you pick up, the less code you're going to understand.

[BehindBlueEyes → BigJono]

your example seems to show that autonomy doesn't matter so much if your choices are ill informed or the environment in which you have autonomy is toxic.

Personally, I think autonomy has little to do with it and lacking autonomy is dangerous to pin burnout on because it puts the responsibility on the person, when burnout is often the result of a system (broken or exploitative).

Sure having autonomy can help cope or delay burnout, but I don't think lacking autonomy is causing burnout singlehandedly.

[gwathk → burningChrome]

Thanks for sharing and really appreciate the "break the cycle" mindset. A lot of people feeling stuck is holding on "strong work-ethics" as their identity, but it is an endless cycle and you are going to lose as you age.

And your sanity is only yours to keep, protect it at all cost.

[parpfish → burningChrome]

It’s worth pointing out that the people you need to protect yourself from aren’t necessarily doing anything malicious — they just don’t know your limits and will keep feeding you work as long as you keep saying yes.

It was a revelation for me when I realized I could tell people “no, I’m swamped right now” and they’d be “ok, no problem”

[mrmetanoia → burningChrome]

You really do have to protect yourself. I think at some point I felt like if I set boundaries I'd get fired, then I realized if I didn't set boundaries I'd go insane which seemed worse than fired so I started telling people "no," and logging off on time. It's been an improvement.

"Will the fight for our sanity, be the fight of our lives?" - flaming lips

[paulcole → mrmetanoia]

> You really do have to protect yourself

I don’t know why this is a revelation to so many people.

Who cares about you more than you do? Nobody — especially not anybody at work.

[BehindBlueEyes → paulcole]

For me the revelation wasn't so much that I have to protect myself but that it wouldn't get me fired.

Maybe it is a revelation for those who haven't been taught to say no outside work?

I was told to be quiet and obey growing up, why would anyone expect me to be equipped to stand up for myself as an adult after that?

[mverv → burningChrome]

Any words of encouragement to a 32 year old considering a career switch to software development? I have a CS undegrad and have been working in the industry, although in strategy roles and never as a developer.

[manuel_w → mverv]

Where do you live?

I transitioned to software development in the age of ~30 and am based in Austria, Europe. The way I did is was to work on a project in my free time, and use that to a) LEARN, b) demonstrate that I can aquire skills myself and c) can stay motivated and push through. I wanted to show that I'm worth being given a chance. It worked flawlessly, I got hired on the first try.

Just try it, what's the worst that can happen? :)

I've got the feeling good software engineers are a bit more rare here, though, and Whiteboard interviews are not a common thing either.

[dclowd9901 → burningChrome]

You might as well be narrating my own experience. This is the definition of work life balance.

[shortrounddev2 → burningChrome]

> I stopped taking on more work once I got my stuff done. I would do exactly what a Sprint called for. Nothing more, nothing less. If I finished early with my tasks, I would stretch out the time and just tell the scrum master I was close, but not done yet, but always finished on time.

A PM at my company told me a few weeks ago "if you finish your work early, we can always find other things for you to work on" and I told him "you understand that my incentive is not to do that, right? If working faster only gives me more work to do, then why would I work faster?" He told me that fast workers are repaid with bonuses, promotions, etc., but I don't think most people believe in that kind of upward mobility anymore. I certainly don't

[brainless]

Giving you a big hug.

I have been through really rough periods and as my health took a big toll, the only means I had to recovery was to move away from crazy startup life. Gradually I understood that, maybe, there is a better balance. I still want to learn, grow, solve problems, dream big.

Instead of making 3 year plans, I started making 10 year plans. I started taking care of my health, like it is the most important thing. I unplugged for a couple years, lived in cheap places to lower my financial burden.

Now I live in a small village, have built a work routine that has no deadlines and I am happy, very happy. I have a hostel I run here, I write software I love, I am planning a product. I just setup a camping spot, it is lush green around here, a slow and simple life (all shops close at 20:00 for example).

I sacrificed those magazine cover dreams but in return I got a wonderful life and I am building again, just at 0.5x speed. I hesitate to think about accelerators like YC. I know I will panic so much when it comes to all those metrics, money and everything else I cannot process anymore. But that is OK.

[anonzzzies → brainless]

I did roughly the same thing; I live in a small village in protected nature. I still run startups, but I sit at my stream in my forest working for them. Life is cheap here so I was able to buy a house and the land; when I feel overwhelmed, I can just throw my laptop and phone out and live out my life tinkering in the house, the land and on hardware. But since I moved (long ago) I haven't had that feeling again.

[BehindBlueEyes → anonzzzies]

Did you already run startups when you initially moved? curious to hear how the transition went because I moved to the countryside but still have a corporate job and find it hard to let go of that safety net even though it is taxing my mental health.

Definitely better since i can hand our in a forest or work in my garden though...

[vinc → anonzzzies]

Same thing here. I bought a little piece of land with an old farm to renovate 7 years ago. The house is right next to a large forest, it was built 175 years ago when this area was cleared, and now I'm letting the forest come back to the parts I'm not using. I watch the small trees grow up, it's peaceful. I charge my laptop with a solar panel and got just enough mobile connectivity to be able to work efficiently.

I still got burn out at my last job because I let the pressure got me. Now I'm recovering while coding small projects and I hope that I'll find a better balance in the next job, or maybe one of my projects will take off.

[BehindBlueEyes → vinc]

Also curious how your transition to working from a farm went.

[yukimura → brainless]

your life is pretty good.

[IamTC]

From my own experience of burning out and getting out of it:

Mechanics: it seems easier to get in to burn out but far far longer to get out of.

I know what I wanted to do but could not bring myself to do it.

Though not always, gut health (or the lack of it. My burn out coincided with my IBD episode) could be an early symptom to back off the throttle a bit.

Subjective: I've learnt to remember that look on someone face who's heading down burn out wall.

In long distance cycling, in order to not 'bonk', you must fuel and hydrate sufficiently and consistently over time. With burn out, I feel the same dynamics apply, but with different 'fuel' and 'hydration'. And every person is so different that the rate of replenishment needed should and have a wide variance.

What really helped me get out was, ironically COVID, when I couldn't do anything about my startup and I had to stop it and rest. The bleeding with my IBD just went away during the peak of lockdowns. Started to build and buy stuff, for leisure, that I enjoyed and had postponed away in my hustling years.

On hope: The human body and brain has a remarkable capability to recover and heal itself. But one does need to give it the right input: hanging out with wholesome or wise people, exercise, eating well, getting medical intervention when needed etc.

[xupybd → IamTC]

I have a similar story. Burnt out and thought my brain was cooked. Then I got my sleep apnea sorted. Then found out I had celiac (the apnea might be related).

Getting that all sorted is like an insane nootropic. I'm smart again and can work real fast.

[gk1]

For me the critical moment was recognizing I had burnout. It happened when I saw this post on HN, whose list of symptoms almost perfectly matched what I was feeling: https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2022/03/29/how-people-fall-ap...

I’ve obviously heard of burnout and experienced it before, yet somehow I failed to recognize what was happening until then.

So thank you for posting this. Hopefully it’ll help someone out there realize they’re burned out and start addressing it.

[LeftHandPath → gk1]

> Rego emphasized the need to lean into life “with your hands, senses and via others.” To allow the prefrontal cortex to rest, he suggested doing hands-on activities, such as arts and cooking, and indulging the senses — especially in nature — and talking to people often.

In my hardest semester at college, I wound up spending a somewhat unreasonable amount of time in nature. I would walk 3-5 miles a day and up to 20 miles on the weekend. I had a wetlands preserve across the street (well, highway) from my apartment, and a great state park about 10 minutes away. My workouts got more intense as I was more stressed as well.

It all seemed to balance out and I've been trying to get back to that sort of balance of activities since I graduated.

[cpeterso → LeftHandPath]

Studies of ecotherapy support your experience:

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/ecotherapy

[Carrok → gk1]

This article really hit home for me as well. But this sentence leaves me in possibly more distress than before reading the article.

> The Cornell study found that after a month of reduced stress, these effects disappeared.

I do not believe I will ever be able to experience “a month of reduced stress” until the day I die. But maybe that’s just the burnout talking.

[olyjohn → Carrok]

I am burnt out from work currently and am in the recovery process now. I told my work I was taking a leave of absence, and used my short term disability insurance to be able to afford the time off. If your company or state offers it, please take it. I am protected by FMLA laws so they can't lay me off while I'm gone. My therapist recommends that I stay out of work up to 3 months. I'm on week 2 and it's already taken a huge weight off of me.

[Carrok → olyjohn]

I’m in my first month of my new job so it’s not really an option. Appreciate it though.

[BlueTemplar → Carrok]

Well, you better watch out, because with enough stress you can get burnout.

At which point I guess at least you will not be able to do whatever stressed you any more.

But then also there's no (complete) coming back from burnout, even after years of reduced stress :

https://web.archive.org/web/20230607211423/https://www.econo...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12234937

[carlosjobim → Carrok]

> I do not believe I will ever be able to experience “a month of reduced stress” until the day I die.

Read your sentence again, so you can see how ridiculous it is. What do you have to do that is so incredibly important that you have to throw away your entire life for it?

[Carrok → carlosjobim]

Provide for my family.

[carlosjobim → Carrok]

There are billions of people who provide for their families without being stressed out until the day they die. You should ask one of them how they do it.

Or you are using your family as an excuse for your self destructive patterns.

[Carrok → carlosjobim]

Please tell me how as an average American I can take a month off work.

You blaming me for the capitalist hellscape I happen to have been born into is hilariously absurd. I have some very not nice things I’d like to say to you, but I’ll just leave it at that.

[seabearDEV → gk1]

Damn, this article is describing me.

I’ve always been an eloquent speaker in meetings but recently it seems like I can’t respond at all, I have these thoughts and then when I go to speak nothing comes out. I’ve began to doubt my skills and abilities even though I’ve been a senior dev for almost 20 years.

The past several weeks I get in front of my screen at work and just stare, sometimes for hours… it’s as if I have waking sleep paralysis or something.

Everything feels fake, like I’m observing myself from the outside and the person I’m seeing is someone else.

[mizzao]

I experienced several episodes of what I thought was burnout (from all the symptoms often described), but in retrospect were periodic recurring depressions from type 2 bipolar disorder, triggered by stress.

PSA for anyone who might have the same situation — if you've experienced anything that resembles hypomania this may be worth investigating. The average time from first bipolar depression to diagnosis is 10 years, and I mistook several depressions for burnout while doing plenty of damage to my career and personal life during that time.

This is one of the best books on the topic: https://www.amazon.com/Depressed-Recognizing-Managing-Bipola...

[sneed_chucker → mizzao]

Did reading the book help you? Did you seek treatment?

[mizzao → sneed_chucker]

I read many many books, re-read my personal journals, and basically had self-diagnosed by the time I spoke with a psychiatrist, who agreed with my assessment upon presenting the evidence.

The huge challenge with diagnosing type 2 BPD is that it basically needs a historical time series of data to be detected properly, so either you or someone close to you needs that data. It's believed to be a lot more prevalent in the population than officially diagnosed, which sucks because it results in consistent, increasing depressions that don't respond to treatments for "unipolar" depression (major depressive disorder), which are actually dangerous as they can trigger mania.

I was lucky that the first medication I found worked really well with no side effects, and I basically went from "random 3-6 month depressions every 1-2 years" to "normal person", which removed a huge debuff, in video game terms.

[8Z7FpV6eDp]

WFH and the general state of tech burned me (and continues to burn me) out big time.

I am extremely over Zoom meetings multiple times per day, every day, and what-feels-like-constant Slack interruptions. I usually love meetings, too!

Tech consulting is what I love doing, but all of the small consultancies are getting hoovered up by the big 4 or WITCH firms, and all of the big firms make you wear business casual and have strong money/sports/golf cultures, which sucks ass.

Going back to engineering and spending all day pairing on Zoom and dealing with petty politics isn't the way either.

Work just isn't exciting anymore; the last four years have felt like different takes of the same job (despite me changing jobs a few times! ). But going back to the office in a world where half of the folks there don't want to be there isn't fun either.

Also, all of the energy in tech is going towards AI, which I couldn't give less of a shit about. Startups are hella exploitative, but big companies prevent you from getting anything done.

I don't know.

[rlabrecque → 8Z7FpV6eDp]

Yeahhh; I feel this. I'm in the office 4-5 days a week again; and the rare days where most of my day ends up being in-office only interactions are great. The quick catchups in the hallway; not either forced catchups that always happen at the wrong time for someone, or never catching up. Socializing while going out for lunch; not doing lunch alone, and then having to make time for socializing when I need to be working. Those days are waay better than zoom meeting hell days OR WFH on no-meeting days. Commuting is new to me since Covid and that sucks but those days remind me what work could be like so I put up with it. :/

[arnejenssen]

A recent study from Sweden: https://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A1851...

The traditional approach of treating burnout primarily through rest and recovery is overly simplistic and may not address the root causes of burnout. Newer models, such as Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT), suggest that addressing psychological and existential needs, rather than just biological ones, can lead to more effective recovery.

Burnout treatment should not only focus on rest but also on helping individuals reconnect with what gives their life meaning, addressing feelings of fear, shame, and high self-demands, to achieve a more comprehensive and lasting recovery.

[paxys]

Also important to note – a lot of people correlate burnout strictly with overwork. You could be burned out due to overwork, sure, but you could also be burned out due to not having enough work. Or doing an average amount of work but not finding real meaning in it. Or another reason not directly related to work at all.

If you aren't 100% happy with your situation, and not getting out of bed every morning with a smile on your face, do your best to address it before things get really bad.

[rakejake → paxys]

Yes, this is called "boreout". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boreout

[okwhateverdude → rakejake]

TIL. Like, this is the majority of the jobs I've had in the last 20 years. A bit mind blowing that this concept has been written about and studied.

[cm2012 → paxys]

Do people really go to work with a smile on their face?

[wadadadad → cm2012]

I think there's a difference between being 'content' and being 'happy', where happy would lead to a smile, and content is more of a general satisfaction that may not lead to a smile. I would argue that being content is the minimum here rather than necessarily having the smile (but certainly a smile is much stronger and more noticeable of a sign); and that there are many more people who are content going to work than those who go with a smile.

[kmarc → cm2012]

Yes

I did it on my last job for a year at least. Good project, learning, good direction for the team, etc. (and of course "more important" things like a salary, friends, family, etc was all in balance).

It was not an easy job though, sometimes I was tired, exhausted by the end of the workday. But it felt like being tired after a good exercise session: feeling of accomplishment.

I left the job when the smile disappeared (non-technical reasons). Then I realized that the smile in question was a really important thing to me :-)

[ddingus → cm2012]

Yes!

I did for may years after my career change into the high end CAD world.

And more recently I am doing it again working with people I love on a startup (manufacturing related) I believe in.

[swatcoder]

Many of us have experienced what you describe and it sucks. I hope you're able to sort it out and feel better about things sooner than later. That's generally the case.

But you and others should keep on mind that "burnout" is not a very precise or actionable word and thinking of your current challenges as being products of burnout doesn't give you much traction on what you can do about not feeling well or what external circumstances might help you recover.

Reading between the lines, and trying to be more precise, it sounds like you may have pushed yourself too hard for too long while neglecting essential self-care pracfices.

* You probably weren't resting very well (sleep; low-stimulation idle time).

* You probably weren't eating very well (fresh, nutritious food) and may not have even been preparing food for yourself (cooking).

* You may not have been physically tending to your self (being active, cleaning, dressing) and your space (cleaning, decorating).

* You may not have been keeping up with your relationships (friends, family) and your community (hobby groups, church/etc, light acquaintances).

For most people (and animals) -- when you don't do those things for long enough, it eventually just catches up with you. You're wired to do those things almost every day and the wires short out and things get funky when you ignore them for weeks or months or years as many fall into the habit of doing.

"Burnout" often suggests that the malaise is a product of what you were doing instead when that often isn't even relevant. Presumably, if you're here, the thing you were doing was something you were passionate about (impressing someone, acheiving something) and probably isn't suited for villification anyway.

Rather than just casting everything that feels wrong into the big vague lot of "burnout", try to take a minute to figure out what you were specifically neglecting and then try to get your hands dirty doing those neglected things (even if it's clumsy or slow or whatever in your fog and fatigue).

[strken → swatcoder]

You can get burnt out while not neglecting any of those things. Going to bed at 10pm with fresh sheets after a nice healthy dinner with friends is not able to offset an unlimited amount of workplace stress, although it's surprisingly effective.

Once you're in a slump you'll probably start neglecting things, but that's getting the causation the wrong way around.

[StapleHorse → strken]

You are maybe right at the begining, but then I think it's both. It becomes a negative feedback loop.

[senectus1 → swatcoder]

You missed one of the most important things they may not be doing, excersize.

This has an incredible "freeing" effect on the mind and "soul". You dont need to be a HIT or cross fit fanatic. just get out and active reguarly. This will also help with sleep and eating better.

Get into regular tiring excersize. It will help with so much.

[swatcoder → senectus1]

Indeed!

I had it there, then revised as "being active" as I think a lot of people get distracted and discouraged by the the contrived, abstract thing that is modern "exercise". I personally enjoy exercise as a hobby, but doing some productive labor, commuting or running errands by foot/bicycle, engaging with active kids, etc, can all hit the same mark in terms of ongoing wellness.

[kd5bjo → swatcoder]

When I was a kid, I developed a strong aversion to anything described with the terms “healthy” or “exercise” because anytime they were used, it inevitably meant that the activity had nothing else to recommend it and would be unpleasant. I think I’m finally over that particular hang-up, but it took decades.

[parpfish → swatcoder]

People on HN either hate exercise because they associate it with the old nerd vs jock battles OR they are absolutely obsessed because it’s just hacking on a big blob of meat

[Earw0rm → parpfish]

It's funny because it's true.

Front-enders get surface body modifications. Ink and piercings.

True engineers know that the worthwhile body modifications are a resting heart rate sub 45, or being able to bench double their body weight.

[Clubber → senectus1]

Walking for 30 minutes 3 times a day helps me a lot. I need to start doing it again. It's so easy to ass out on the couch after a grueling day, and when you're burned out, every day is a grueling day.

[meztez → swatcoder]

Seems complicated, although this is the best description of depression I've ever read, go outside and start walking.

[RomanPushkin]

I've been dealing with burnout multiplied by cancer in the family. My spouse was diagnosed back in 2020. It was tough and unmanageable until I got back to P.Cubensis and started microdosing it just to stay alive. I didn't go to stratosphere, and not a fan of a mAcrodose. But mIcrodose helped me to rewire my brain. Can't recommend it enough. Don't do P.Cubensis though, since P.Natalensis is the better, easier choice in all aspects. Also, dried Amanita Muscaria does a great thing - you're probably just one dried (!) 10cm cap away from getting back on rails. And no, you won't have a "trip" from it. I'm not talking about "trips", euphoria, etc. I'm talking about saving your life instead of wasting one.

I've learnt the hard way that there are protocols from getting back on your feet from the shittiest shit in your life. There are communities of people with MUCH SEVERE problems.

It's also in books, read "PSYCHEDELIC OUTLAWS: The Movement Revolutionizing Modern Medicine" by Joanna Kempner. (there is also audiobook). There are communities, really really good communities that will help you to get back on your feet again, quickly, no b/s (I'm a bit hesitant to share the links, but you can always reach out). This really works, verified.

If you're suicidal, call 988. Also, I can send you a link to a protocol that helped many people with a very good reviews. I discovered it by accident, and there is a community of people who implemented that. Once you have all the things, the help is so quick, in a week you gonna enjoy life again.

[concerndc1tizen → RomanPushkin]

I've met several Americans who are into self-medicating like this. One guy was talking about his 500k USD salary at Facebook, so clearly successful, while obsessing about where to source drugs, so clearly struggling.

Have you considered that there may be permanent changes to your brain, that you're not able to perceive, similar to the radical shift in personality we've observed in Elon Musk?

[RomanPushkin → concerndc1tizen]

I've accepted and embraced all the permanent changes for one very simple reason: it's better to be alive than depressed and/or dead and/or being in vegetative state. Note that I was dealing with extreme circumstances - life and death on a daily basis. I had stress that was so intense that all of my teeth were in pain, every day two weeks straight.

I am happy I was able to exchange it for the "permanent changes" that made me back alive. I won't hesitate to do it again (have to admit I don't need it know, I'm in peace).

> obsessing about where to source drugs

It's one of the things I avoid, because sourcing is dangerous. Everything is contam now, even weed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehvIkZCZmzA. So "sourcing" and "drugs" are not the words from my vocabulary.

1000-year-old medicine I call it, that nature provides, ideally unprocessed (see /r/herbalism for safe-for-work examples).

Also, try to read the book I mentioned if you have time, it's in the very beginning (first 10% of it will answer most/all of your questions).

[concerndc1tizen → RomanPushkin]

Very good points.

That they lace with fentanyl is really scary, but obviously financially lucrative, and on-brand with the mindset of the industry.

I'm sorry to hear about your stress. It's disappointing that we've never been wealthier and more productive, but that ruthless exploitation is still going strong.

[pcthrowaway → concerndc1tizen]

> Have you considered that there may be permanent changes to your brain, that you're not able to perceive, similar to the radical shift in personality we've observed in Elon Musk?

I think people undergo permanent changes to their brain that they can't perceive, all the time. Hacker News and other social media definitely change your brain. So does having more wealth than you can conceivably spend in lifetime. I suspect the latter is more directly responsible for Elon Musk's trash personality than microdosing.

While I am a strong advocate for legalizing hallucinogens and empathogens, and am certain there are clinical uses for at least some of them which we are in the early days of understanding, I'm not as convinced by the science on microdosing (which specifically refers to sub-perceptual doses). But with so many people who seem to benefit from it, I support people who find it helpful doing so, even if it's just placebo effect.

[VonGuard]

The number one trait I have seen in people who are burned out is that they utterly and completely deny they are burned out. They often furiously push back on the idea. "I cannot possibly be burned out, because I have way too much to do," or something less articulate.

Admitting you're burned out is the fist step on the path back. It can take years to get back to normal and have passion again. But it will return if you take care of yourself and avoid the kind of things that send you spiraling into stress.

[parpfish → VonGuard]

A related trait is people who tie their self identify up with their job.

When your identity is “person who does this job”, it’s hard to see that you’re doing the job too much.

And even if you do have that realization, it opens up a new struggle to figure out what you’re supposed to do if you’re not doing the job.

[al_borland → parpfish]

This was (and still is) one of my issues. I had the realization that I need a life, so I stopped working 60-80 hour weeks, but didn’t have anything to fill the time with… and even if I did, I’m too burned out to do anything.

[parpfish → al_borland]

Congrats and welcome to living your life! I know it’s overwhelming to find a new hobby or interest, just throw yourself into something and realize that you’re not going to be good at it

[gnulinux → VonGuard]

This is a very naive take. There are people who live paycheck to paycheck with the threat of homelessness. They can't just "accept" they have burnout, they have to work as if they don't just like any other person. I myself had a brutal burnout recently (hopefully recovering now slowly) but it was very difficult because I work on a visa and I can't afford to take a break or PTO etc. Yes I "accepted" that I'm burned out in an academic manner but almost everything my therapist offered was out of question. In that sense of course "I can't be burned out because I have too much to do." I still have to work every day, churn the churn, hustle the hustle, write the performance review forms, avoid PIPs, otherwise I'm deported in a matter of months. Managers expect exponential return every quarter!

[changexd → gnulinux]

Well in this case my friend, perhaps sometimes it's okay to go back home? I have lots of friends doing this to them, they are burned out both physically and mentally, people usually have options if they can step back a bit, do you really want to sacrifice your happiness for working abroad and become "successful"? Only you can drag yourself out as you've mentioned your therapist's solutions do not work for you, it's okay to take a break, giving it up is not giving up, but a reason to look different path, you can be truly be free only if you let yourself free.

[gnulinux → changexd]

It's not possible to do so due to having my entire life here and nothing "back home" where I haven't even visited last 15 years. I have my fiancée, my cat, my house, my career here and there I have nothing. Would you leave your future wife, mom of your future kids, and go to the other end of the world to a country you last visited when you were a kid?

[Neikius → gnulinux]

Maybe just get married and get that citizenship sorted eh? You are in a situation which obviously is exploited by your employers.

[BlueTemplar → gnulinux]

Wait, did you keep jumping from country to country during 15 (!!) years or something, that you couldn't get citizenship in one of the new ones ?!?

[gosub100 → gnulinux]

Its not "naive" to limit the scope or infer what the limited scope is, in this case it's tech workers. We aren't under contract to account for everyone else who is on a visa (that they chose to undertake) or works a low wage job. The comment is correct for an implied subset of the population.

[gnulinux → gosub100]

"Mental health problems and life struggle doesn't matter unless you're privileged like me."

[gosub100 → gnulinux]

that's not what "privilege" means either.

[ajkjk → VonGuard]

I think the basic mechanism is:

You have an identity that says you're good at something, responsible, motivated, etc. that identity is the one that talks in meetings, promises to do stuff, signs up for things, etc. This is the part that would push back on the idea of being burned out as well, because it identifies with not being that way. Part of your brain is dedicated to projecting this identity out into the world.

Meanwhile you have another part of your brain which is your actual executive function, which responds to your needs and makes you want to do things. It will try to do what the first identity says, to a point, but if it starts wear down, be bored, be frustrated, etc, it will start to fail.

What's supposed to happen is that your first identity, or rather your whole coherent self with all of its parts, recognizes that something is not working and does something: takes a break, quits, stops working so hard, changes something, adjusts the identity to be healthier, whatever.

What happens instead is that those small failures are ignored and start accumulate into a larger and larger debt, of being behind, not getting what you need, and draining yourself of executive function to keep up with it. Eventually this becomes untenable and your brain just starts to shut down.

The way out is somehow reconciling the two. I expect that it looks like: first, realizing that you're drained and properly recuperating, then second, realizing that you're not getting what you need to stay driven and doing something about it. Just recuperating on its own isn't enough.

[ChiperSoft]

I recognized I was burned out three months ago, but wasn’t in a situation to do anything about it. Then work got even harder, and I tried to push through it.

My brain broke last Friday, I couldn’t think about even the most basic programming concepts without a lot of struggle and developing a nasty headache. I’m now in the exact same place as OP, and just told HR today that I need to file for temporary disability.

I’m scared, I fear my career may have just come to a screeching halt.

I regret not listening to myself months ago.

[ein0p → ChiperSoft]

If you’re worried about the “gap”, don’t be. In my experience it doesn’t matter nearly as much as people believe. And don’t worry about your “career”. It’s basically all bullshit anyway.

[astura → ein0p]

This comment makes no sense.

Your ability to provide for yourself and your family isn't "basically bullshit," and filing for short term disability doesn't leave a gap on your resume.

[ein0p → astura]

In the grand scheme of things arbitrary and artificial “career ladders” don’t matter. Your best strategy is to ignore all that and move around every 2-3 years looking solely at the dollar figures and ignoring the titles. If you do not move, you’re going to end up underpaid, even if you do get to a fancy title or “more responsibility”.

[madmask → astura]

Career as playing the game and climbing the ladder is bullshit. One can provide without a “career”.

[FractalHQ]

Every-time burnout comes up, I can’t help but notice that people are describing my default state as someone with severe ADHD and a fundamental dopamine deficiency. I can relate so much to every reported symptom that it becomes very difficult for me to frame burnout in the context of my own experience. Medication, exercise, healthy food, and cold showers are the tools I’ve always used to get myself close enough to a neurotypical background to be able to do things like teach myself how to code.

I feel for you, and I wish you a swift recovery! And if you get Covid, SLEEP AND CHUG WATER like your life depends on it, or you may get permanent burnout in the form of long covid (my worst nightmare), without the hope of recovery that you currently have to look forward to and strive towards :)

[blueyes]

I got super burned out working in startups for about 8 years. didn't realize it on the inside. now that i'm out, i look back and realize i was in a constant state of stress and anxiety. i got my sleep back, started exercising, started doing ice plunge/sauna, cut stress, limited exposure to stupid messaging streams like slack. it's a new world. i had to remake myself chemically in tiny steps and it took about two solid years to do it.

[siamese_puff → blueyes]

While working?

[blueyes → siamese_puff]

Yes, while working and raising a young boy. I just needed to escape the hellish pressure of having raised millions to build a business that didn't work, and worrying about my obligations to investors and the team members I hired. It was a bunch of tiny steps that I had to slot into the constraints of a working life. I recommend "Tiny Habits": https://tinyhabits.com Fogg has good ideas about how to redesign behavior under constraints.

[ddingus → siamese_puff]

My guess is nope. That is very difficult to do, unless one works with people willing to make an investment to heal one of their own.

That is out there. But it is rare.

[gfody]

"burnout" can be anything from mental exhaustion to stress induced psychosis, and should be treated like any bodily injury - like you're not going to be playing tennis soon after a severe ankle sprain, and possibly never again at the same level after a nasty wrist break. mental injuries are real and take time to heal but when you don't realize this you just keep playing tennis on your sprained ankle and turn a small injury into a big one.

it feels like you can't learn, can't work, can't remember - this is just your body protecting itself, your ankle is wrapped. you have to listen to your body and give your mind a break before it takes one.

[floating-io]

I wonder how much burnout is exacerbated by the fact that projects never actually end in this business?

You never truly finish something. If you think you did, you are quickly disabused of that notion. You are lucky to ever feel that sense of pride in completion, and if you do, it is brief.

Pride in a job well done is fleeting, if you are ever allowed to feel it at all.

Yes, I'm a recovering victim of burnout, and no, this was not the only cause, but sometimes I wonder...

[yarg → floating-io]

What did it for me wasn't the fact that the project had no end in sight,

It was the fact that every time I made an effort to move towards that point, the boss would pull in a dickhead architect (let's call him Huy) who would then veto my entire roadmap.

This happened many times, each time I felt more and more worthless; by the time I eventually left Bravura I was suicidal.

[jdthedisciple → yarg]

Too relatable, few things worse than a half-committed architect constantly tripping you over...

[yarg → jdthedisciple]

Someone else shat the bed on the first project I worked on for the company.

He blamed me, so for the next four years took every opportunity to had to fuck me over regardless of what I was trying to get done.

I once had to get through six weeks of work in a month (what need for testing?), because he told me last minute about major vital changes that were needed in the next release with zero advanced warning.

This was in addition to my standard workload.

After I somehow managed to pull it off, he then informed me that the changes weren't that important and weren't required for the release.

Yeah, fuck that guy.

[noobermin]

I've been burned out for two years after moving to a new country to work in one of the worst post-docs of my life. But, I've found I have no one to rely on but myself because employers don't care that you're burned out, they want to keep up their kpis. Sometimes you have to work even if you're already unhealthy.

By the way, this isn't a "when the going gets tough" sort-of post, I'm just stating the reality of life.

[al_borland → noobermin]

My company sends out blasts to everyone that tells us to take care of our mental health and stuff like that, but it’s all a show. Our actually managers drive us into the ground and any sign of weakness are met with a kick while the person is down. Everyone I work with is burned out and miserable, but too scared to say anything about it or take the time they need. Hearing grown men break down and cry on calls isn’t fun. I’ve heard it several times now.

At this point, quitting seems like the only option. However, I’m in what should be the best earning years of my life, and it seems like any new job would mean a pay cut. I don’t want to cut my legs out from under myself… especially when a new job is an unknown, it could be even worse. I also have this idea in my head that I would be able to be mentally strong enough to find happiness in any situation, and if I run away from something bad, rather than being pulled toward something better, than I won’t grow as a person.

[okwhateverdude → al_borland]

> At this point, quitting seems like the only option.

Man, given this story, I think you have way more options. Like burning the place down, Milton-with-the-red-stapler style.

Jokes aside, GTFO that place, bro. Leave a harsh glassdoor review for the cathartic release (even if it won't get posted). The grass is definitely greener somewhere else even if it might be a gamble to find it.

Just note down everything you don't like about your current shithead employer and ask yourself, "what questions can I ask in an interview that will reveal these shithead employer tendencies?" Then go interview and remember that you are interviewing THEM. Don't worry about actually getting the job, interviews are a coin flip anyhow, just worry about how much shithead signal you're getting from them. If you end up jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, just update your list of shithead employer questions and do it again. Life is way, way too short to deal with shitheads. Love yourself more than that.

[bityard → al_borland]

> Hearing grown men break down and cry on calls isn’t fun. I’ve heard it several times now.

Okay. Let me stop you right there. If that is something that happened once, I could believe you ran across someone who wasn't very emotionally balanced at the time. Twice could be a coincidence. Three times or more means you work in one of the most toxic workplaces I have ever heard of.

I want to be a crystal clear as I can on this point, so I'm going to raise my voice a bit to be heard: THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

> I don’t want to cut my legs out from under myself… especially when a new job is an unknown, it could be even worse.

Yes, a new job is an unknown. But that's life, change is a constant and you have to embrace and embody that in order to truly thrive.

Based on the fact that very few companies are staffed entirely of psychopaths, outside of fintech anyway, let me ask you this: do you really think throwing a dart at a random list of companies is likely to hit one that's materially worse?

Either way, if you're not happy where you're at, wouldn't it make sense to throw the dart anyway, just to see where it hits?

> and it seems like any new job would mean a pay cut.

1. You are already halfway to the mental ward if you think a little extra money is worth all your sanity.

2. You are probably wrong anyway. If one company is willing to pay you X dollars for your skills and experience, others will too. In fact, and I speak from recent experience here, many are willing to pay a great deal more.

> I also have this idea in my head that I would be able to be mentally strong enough to find happiness in any situation, and if I run away from something bad, rather than being pulled toward something better, than I won’t grow as a person.

No offense, but that is extremely backwards thinking. Would you continue to live with a physically abusive partner until a better mate showed up on your doorstep? No? Why would you continue to live with an emotionally abusive one?

It sounds like you are waiting to be rescued from this situation by something or someone. Let me assure you: no one is coming to save you. You are the one in charge of your physical and mental well being. That isn't to say you shouldn't ask for help, but you need to be the one to stand up to whatever fears are holding you back and say, enough with this bullshit, enough working for fuckwits, I deserve respectful coworkers, competent managers, and rewarding work.

You may not find complete happiness, but you don't have to stand for constant misery.

[al_borland → bityard]

> outside of fintech anyway

Funny you say that. We seem to use various fintech companies as our feeder for senior management positions, who then bring in all their people. I usually try to wait them out, as they typically only last a few years. The idea being that it can't get worse, so the next person will be better, but they just keep getting worse somehow. We just got a new guy recently, so the impacts from that remain to be seen.

> do you really think throwing a dart at a random list of companies is likely to hit one that's materially worse?

When I look at job postings online, without relocating, it seems I'd likely take a 25-50% pay cut. I also have some golden handcuffs on me, so I'd have to forfeit a bunch of stock. While money isn't everything, and I keep my cost of living pretty low, it is a concern when I think about retirement.

I've shared some of my frustrations with my dad, who spent his whole career in corporate IT and worked at several different places. I don't know that I brought up the crying, but I've told him quite a bit. His general replies are that he can relate, and will often point to Dilbert to show that it's the same everywhere... if it wasn't, that comic wouldn't have been popular. I've also seen people leave and beg to come back. These things together make me think the grass isn't always greener.

On the flip side, I've also seen a lot of people leave who end up with a permanent smile on their face after leaving. Several have also lost significant amounts of weight, as they stop needing various coping mechanisms or find healthier outlets.

I suppose this means the fear of regret is stronger than the hope that something new will be better.

My old boss seems to have a standing offer if I want to go work for him. However, a former co-worker did, and he texted me about a month ago saying how bad it was. And the boss is saying he makes less than me now, so the pay cut comes up again. While he liked me and gave me a lot of autonomy, he also lied to me for several years, manipulating me to sell my house and move several states away from home. When I was finally fed up and decided to move back near family/friends in my home state, he tried to keep the lie going. I called him on it, and found out it was all BS. So I'm not excited to jump into that again.

> No offense, but that is extremely backwards thinking. Would you continue to live with a physically abusive partner until a better mate showed up on your doorstep? No? Why would you continue to live with an emotionally abusive one?

I think what screws with me is that I will occasionally see someone who seems happy in spite of it all. It's rare sight, but there are a couple. I wonder what their secret is and how I can get to that place, where I can be happy in spite of my circumstances. Maybe it's all an act.

> I deserve respectful coworkers, competent managers, and rewarding work.

My coworkers, the ones I've been working with for 10-15 years, I like. I feel some loyalty to them. Maybe I shouldn't, but we've been in the trenches together for a long time. They've had my back and I've had theirs.

When it comes to management competence and rewarding work, that's currently at an all time low. I used to take on a lot of these shortcomings myself, to fill the gaps in leadership, but with 4 re-orgs leading to 4 new bosses, in 4 years... I'm sick of starting over and sick of doing other people's job, so I stopped. So far it's not gone well and everything is worse as a result, which has me questioning if I should go back to working 60-80 hour weeks to try and get the house in order as I've done in the past, but these people don't deserve that. I don't deserve that. And if I do all that work, they're just going to re-org in 6 months, so it will all be for nothing.

I once told my old boss I thought about quitting every day for 15 years. Though the reasons why changed over time. At first it was impostor syndrome (which also gets in the way when I look for new jobs), then it seemed like I had nothing more to learn and hit a dead end, and now it's the overwhelming toxicity of the culture.

Thanks for the tough love. You've given me a lot to consider. It's a difficult decision for me. It's been one of the few constant things in my life, and as a result I don't have much of a life outside of work. Quitting is an event that would shake loose my identity. Oh god... is this why people stay in abusive relationships for so long?

[whoknw → noobermin]

It depends on where you work, but some employers extend mental health benefits to post-docs as well. Depending on the country, therapists have sliding scales too. The irony of looking for a therapist while you are burned out is that it can be a long process, but there is the chance of it being worth it and to see more options afterwards.

[xyst]

This is too real. This weekend is when I finally start looking for a new job. Corporate life just fucking sucks. Work is "easy" but it's just not rewarding. The before/after OP described is kind of on point. But add in the fact that I just don't give a fuck about this company anymore. There's nothing I work on that contributes to the betterment of society. Equivalent of pushing paper at this point.

Going to get a good fucking rest (10 hours of full sleep). Run in the morning. Then grind out applications and hitting up connections.

[famahar → xyst]

I'd argue that most dev jobs contribute nothing to society. The ones that do unfortunately don't pay well. I went into teaching for now and while it pays less, it's also tremendously fulfilling and the most human I've felt at a job. Tech work is soulless to me. Corporate environments are sterile fake bubbles of ego, profit and exploitation. It's not the real world but it pays well. If money weren't an issue I'd be a teacher for the rest of my life.

[pvsk10 → famahar]

Did you have to take any certifications to get into teaching? What subject do you teach?

[morkalork]

Ever since I snapped at a C-level exec and more or less told them to fuck off and stop asking me for shit, in more polite words, when they are categorically _not_ in the chain above me, I've been feeling a lot better. I may have completely burnt any and all bridges I have though, I don't know yet.

[famahar → morkalork]

I'm glad you're feeling better. Sometimes burning bridges is the fuel you need to build better ones.

[sfmz]

I was doing a startup with a high achiever, I estimate ~160 IQ or higher; he worked 7 days a week, at least 12 hours a day, but often 16 for at least 20 years. He was a step-change smarter than me; PhD in Chem E. from top school, brilliant computer scientist... the only time I saw him relax is once he played Sonic the Hedgehog for like 10 hours straight. He fried his motherboard... his wife texted me one day... he's in a coma... 12 days later he emerges from the hospital with amenesia... that was years ago, still has amensia, can't create new long-term memories, can't work, etc.

One thing that helped me during burnout is reading biographies, idk why it helped, but I'm passing it forward.

[ethanol-brain]

I have burned out at least 10 times in my career. The last time, it was like I lost half a decade, even though it didn't last quite that long. It was as if I had amnesia. I fell into a deep depression. I considered killing myself just because everything seemed so difficult and pointless.

Give yourself some more time. You might not emerge exactly as who you remember, but its possible to mostly recover from the pretty extreme cognitive impairment that you are likely struggling through.

[mrmetanoia → ethanol-brain]

It really is a difficult thing to heal and a difficult thing to know when you've healed. Same with grief. And you're right it takes - relative to our lifespan - a rather long time to start to see yourself again.

[parpfish]

You should also know that it can take a LONG time to fully recover.

I got burnt out 3-4 years ago and am only now feeling like I’m coming back to normal. Maybe if I took a more intentional path to recovery I’d be back earlier, but it’s not like the kind of thing where you can take a couple weeks PTO and expect it to clear up

[CooCooCaCha → parpfish]

Did you take a break from working or did you find a way to recover and work?

[parpfish → CooCooCaCha]

Month off and then to a new job that was arguably even worse. Only stayed there a year, but my new gig is good

[jpm_sd → CooCooCaCha]

Getting a new job at a big, slow moving company can be a good way to recover while not becoming destitute

[parpfish → jpm_sd]

For me, the big slow moving org CAUSED the burnout

Burnout isn’t always about overwork. There are several different typologies and mine was more related to a lack of control/pointlessness that led to a very extreme form of ennui. The end result was the same with depression, anhedonia, and cynicism.

[herbst]

I was only a few years in IT until I burned out and never really found back into a 'normal' life a bit more than 8 years ago.

I haven't had a normal job since.

I still can't imagine working a daily job. I highly doubt I will ever be able to do that. At least not in a stressful matter as development jobs turned out to be.

HOWEVER, it never stopped me from trying. And today maybe I need 3 or 5 weeks at a time of doing nothing or just joyful things but when I head back into a Project I can do it with full enthusiasm, enough energy and most importantly fun. Fun doing what I am able to, fun learning new things on the way.

My guess is the only reason this actually works for me is because nobody ever tells me what I have to do and when I have to do it.

It just takes a few days of stress I can't control and I am back into a vulnerable potato.

[primitivesuave]

I burned out around 3 years ago and couldn't fix it with a year of traveling the world and working on side projects - thankfully I discovered Vipassana meditation which helped me bounce back stronger than ever. Hopefully someone else in a similar situation might find this potential solution useful.

[andrei_says_ → primitivesuave]

What in Vipassana helped the most? Refocusing on the body? Focusing on equinimity? Recalibrating the mind once or twice a day? Something else?

[andhuman → andrei_says_]

Not OP, but for me what helped the most is the samadi / shamatha meditation where you go into this calm abiding mode. You are calm but alert with the whole body energized. This is a enjoyable state to be in, sometimes _very_ enjoyable. I listened to the guided meditations from the Alan Wallace retreat as well as a guided meditation retreat from Rob Burbea.

[whoknw → andrei_says_]

Second that question - did you do one of the ten day retreats?

[dheera]

You're not alone, I'm burned out too and tired of every AI-related company expecting engineers to work more than 40 hours a week and nights and weekends, steal scope from teammates, fight for clout, fight for internal resources, on top of dealing with rush hour traffic for some stupid RTO metrics, with stupid-short amounts of vacation time, and expectations to take meetings during vacations.

AI was supposed to allow us to work less, not more.

I'd be okay if science moved 50% slower than it does now. I'm okay with AGI happening in 3 years instead of 2. Or 5. Or 10. I just want time to take care of myself, spend time watching sunsets with my girlfriend, create some art, and learn about what's going on elsewhere in the world instead of die early.

[linotype → dheera]

I’m starting to wonder if this problem is more startup related or if big companies have this issue as well. The math for startup employees financially doesn’t make sense anymore anyway and for most probably never did.

[darth_avocado → linotype]

It’s the same everywhere. ICs are expected to work themselves to death meanwhile the manager/executive class gets paid. The definition of what’s “normal” work has been shifting for years.

Personally I’m just curious to see what happens when everyone just gives up. People already feel working hard no longer leads to a better life. (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/2020-edelman-tr...) Will the management class learn?

[linotype → darth_avocado]

I was afraid this was the case. Meanwhile corporations are about to see their taxes cut even further. Just wild the times we live in.

[dheera → darth_avocado]

> People already feel working hard no longer leads to a better life.

For me, it's not just a feeling; objectively, it doesn't.

I tried working hard. As a PhD student, as a founder. I had my 1st cardiac arrest the week after my graduation and my 3rd cardiac arrest during the height of startup stress. After that all I can say is that I'd rather have a life than my life lost. Fuck working hard. Work smart, work healthy, get a reasonable amount of shit done, but take care of yourself, your family, and your friends and enjoy everything the Earth has to offer before you die.

[linotype → dheera]

I don’t know you but I’m glad you’re still with us.

[dheera → linotype]

I just left Amazon, and the situation is identical at several other companies based on anecdotal evidence from friends, so it's very much a big company issue as well.

The biggest problem with many startups I think is workaholic, narcissist founders who don't know how to treat humans like humans. It's generally less procedural and internal competition bullshit than big tech, but more immature management trying to bite more than they can chew or expecting employees who have a 0.1%-0.5% stake in the company to behave like founders with a 40% stake in the company. Not going to happen.

[darth_avocado → dheera]

I’d understand the expectations if you have 0.5% stake in the company. The problem is, most employers expect the same while paying below market rates to employees who have no stake in the company.

[Aeolun → darth_avocado]

I wouldn't. If I'm employee nr. 5, why is my stake in the company 0.5% while yours is 30%? That wouldn't be enough to feel like anything more than an employee that doesn't have to give a shit to me.

[CuriouslyC → dheera]

I don't think it's fair to use the term workaholic with founders. If you're not well capitalized you have to be a workaholic just to survive. There are a fair amount of narcissistic founders because extreme self confidence is table stakes for a startup, and people who have that level of confidence are statistically more likely to be narcissists than hyper competent just based on the frequency of the two.

[al_borland → CuriouslyC]

It’s fine for the founder to work non-stop. That’s pretty much required for some period of time to get a company off the ground.

They should not expect this same level of dedication from employees. No one is ever going to care as much as the founder. Just like a teacher or baby sitter is never going to care as much about a kid as the parents (assuming good parents here).

[dheera → al_borland]

I know founders do this (as a former founder myself), but it's also super unhealthy for the founder to do this for more than a few weeks at a time. Our bodies and minds are not designed to handle that.

[mangamadaiyan → linotype]

It's more to do with your immediate boss and teammates than BigCo or Startup. Culture and Bullshit flow from the top, as the old jungle saying goes. The icing on the cake is your immediate boss being a certain kind of bodily orifice, and the same holding true for their boss as well.

[add-sub-mul-div → dheera]

> AI was supposed to allow us to work less, not more.

We are never going to be allowed to work less in this current state of capitalism. No new invention will be allowed to help you more than it helps people richer than you. They have more power than you do.

Imagine the DVR being invented today. A device that lets you skip ads. It wouldn't happen.

[cleandreams]

I got burned out with the combination of a high intensity job, care taking a dying spouse, and managing the decline and dementia of a parent. Both deaths occurred near each other. I had always been highly productive and successful but at a certain point I couldn't really focus anymore. My brain felt empty. I had trouble learning things. Luckily I had had one of those golden jobs in which I made a small fortune. I retired early. Now I feel fresh again and I want to get back into the mix. It took a couple of years though.

What did I do? Grief workshops, therapy, gym, meditation, grief groups, community service, deeper friendships. It works. It just takes time.

[dogbait → cleandreams]

So sorry to hear you went through that heartache. I'm glad life (and of course your efforts) gave you some fortune.

For me - going through burnout and depression, my brain felt almost like it would hit a wall any time I wanted to learn something new. At the time it felt like it was energy or sugar deprived.

Took a month of no work and just relaxing, playing video games (I joke sometimes that Witcher 3 healed me) and doing the core things, exercise, talking, spending time with my family and friends and sleeping/eating right slowly pulled me away from that raw feeling of apathy.

Everything else followed once I started basic self care, but boy did it take time to feel somewhat 'normal' though I still feel 'different' following the experience.

[cleandreams → dogbait]

Thanks. It's hard to connect to self-care when you are in a tech grind. You are expected to grind it out and I enjoyed that but at some point in my life that didn't work anymore. Taking even a month off can help. By the way I went back to work about 3 weeks after my spouse died. It wasn't the wrong thing to do. But a couple years after that I needed a real break.

[patrickhogan1]

Interestingly, while chronic sleep deprivation is harmful, studies show that a single night of sleep deprivation can have a rapid, temporary antidepressant effect in 40-60% of people with depression. I tried this after burning out on my third startup, and it helped me short-term when I needed it most. You can read more about the research Penn Medicine (https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2017/septemb...).

[Aeolun → patrickhogan1]

So people that keep going to bed too late are self medicating?

[thinkingemote → Aeolun]

There was a recent post that implied that in cases of acute trauma, staying awake might lead to better outcomes through less long term memory formation.

Sleep deprivation disrupts memory https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-01732-y (3 months ago, 103 Comments, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40681345 )

Its probably not the same as chronic burnout or depression but in a way staying awake after a stressful day could be self medication.

[patrickhogan1 → Aeolun]

Dan Gross, in his “How to Win” talk, discusses the Software Engineer’s (SWE) 25-hour cycle and emphasizes the importance of sleep for overall performance and well-being. I completely agree with his focus on sleep. The strategy mentioned above is meant as a temporary fix when healthier alternatives—like restful sleep, regular exercise, a balanced diet, or sauna use—aren’t effective. It also has an immediate effect, unlike many medications, making it a useful, isolated experiment.

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxy4qdJ_dSU4Thv0MpGzqxJ8OYPfSvPW3...

[MathMonkeyMan → patrickhogan1]

A psychiatrist told me that sleep deprivation does have a proven anti-depressant effect, but that the side effects are very severe. Makes sense. He preferred the SSRIs.

There is a moment, when I've been up all night and am engaging with the world, that I feel a lack of anxiety and a mental clarity. It's like I've finally "sobered up." I think it's my body telling me "we need to sleep, none of this shit matters."

Sleep deprivation is very bad for you, though, so try something else instead.

[TillE → MathMonkeyMan]

Sleep deprivation is one of those last resort options that psychiatrists will consider if the normal treatments persistently fail. But yeah, do the normal stuff like SSRIs first.

[owenpalmer]

I started doing dev work at 17. Initially, it was the most fun and productive stage of growth in my life. After switching companies, I started taking on a lot of responsibility and stress. I didn't know how to communicate when it was too much. I was very ambitious and studied programming for hours outside of work every day. The projects assigned to me began to feel meaningless. At this time, I was also in a long distance relationship. By age 19 my mental health was absolutely destroyed. After quitting my job, I couldn't even open an editor for months. It took a lot of healing before I could even think about writing another line of code.

Although I've somewhat recovered from burnout and depression, I still have lasting symptoms that haven't gone away.

My memory in particular has not recovered. I used to memorize hundreds of digits on pi-day just for fun. My mental energy is not the same, and everything (things what were previously easy) continue to be challenging.

I'm giving it time. I'm pretty happy now, but I miss the raw intellectual abilities.

[siamese_puff]

What to do? My company dropped support for therapy, I pay $4k a month in rent and feel I probably just won’t wake up some days. I wouldn’t mind taking a break, but the nonstop posts about not being able to get a job don’t help. Have never felt more trapped.

[haswell → siamese_puff]

When you say your company dropped support, do you mean they were providing it directly and now aren’t, or it’s no longer part of your health insurance?

I’ve worked at places that did both. Check your health plan. Most decent ones have mental health coverage.

Don’t let coverage stop you from getting help. From experience, there comes a point when staying just won’t be an option. Your body will make the decision for you.

I started a sabbatical right before all of the layoffs started. It was a little spooky at first but it was also the best decision I’ve ever made.

Also worth looking into taking medical leave. Easier if you’ve been speaking with a therapist and/or doctor who can help justify the leave. I almost did this but didn’t want any pressure to return.

[chrnola → siamese_puff]

Same. I would rather put up with being burnt out than subject myself to interviewing. Ridiculous.

[haswell → chrnola]

That’s the burnout talking. Took me a number of months on sabbatical before I realized that the idea of interviews no longer made me want to crawl into a hole.

[ein0p]

Been there done that. For me burnout is no so much about overwork. The happiest I’ve been was when I did contracting/consulting where I’d routinely work 50-60 hours a week. It’s more about feeling “trapped” in a set of circumstances, eg a dead end job where no matter what I do forward progress is impossible, project I don’t believe in, stuff like that. The solution has always been: take 6-9 months off and go elsewhere. 25 years and several major job changes later, it works. Not everyone can take this much time off of course, but you have to change your situation at least, or this thing can easily turn just getting out bed in the morning into torture.

[FrenchTouch42 → ein0p]

Ah I just replied to someone else but I totally understand the feeling.

[dgllghr]

This is a psychological issue, but everything psychological is also physical. It’s all one interconnected system. So please see a doctor and have your bloodwork done. Doing that was the first step to escaping my burnout. I wish I had done it sooner.

[XorNot → dgllghr]

I would somewhat caution against this: you're much more likely to get told everything is fine, then be told it's not. And even if you're told it's not, it may not solve any problems: I lost a bunch of weight, got fitter, and deflected myself (so far) off a path to adult-onset diabetes...hasn't helped the burn out at all.

These are all good things to have done, but the secret hope of everyone once they walk into the doctor's office is to get told "take this drug and you'll be back to feeling like you're 24 and just graduated college".

[dgllghr → XorNot]

My goal isn’t to get anyone’s hopes up about a drug fixing all issues. It’s more to encourage to cover the basics in case it helps. Because it did for me and it’s something I could have done sooner

[jaggederest → dgllghr]

Another anecdote here. My endocrine system was messed up in a multitude of ways. Getting it back closer to ideal has meant that, in general I can handle stress, and if I can't, taking time off is actually restorative, not just "not getting worse".

You really have to insist, in the US anyway, that there is really something wrong. I was told for ~6 years "idk you're depressed bro", when in fact there were material physiological things that could have been addressed right away.

[al_borland → XorNot]

> the secret hope of everyone once they walk into the doctor's office is to get told "take this drug and you'll be back to feeling like you're 24 and just graduated college".

The fear of this attitude, which is all too common, is what keeps me away from doctors.

I had a doctor several years ago who was amazing. She actually focused on lifestyle and would even host classes for her patients at night. Best doctor I ever had. Sadly I moved away, and I don’t know how to find another doctor like that. She was like a unicorn.

[thih9]

What's the difference between a light bulb and a programmer?

A light bulb stops working when it burns out.

---

Source: https://mas.to/@yogthos/111573984275836954

I like it; it's funny, it shows the industry has a problem, it also makes me stop working so hard.

[richardreeze]

I forgot who said this, but burnout is only the result of hard work not paying off.

When you work hard and things are going well, you get energized and can work 24/7.

When you work hard and things aren't panning out, you get "burnout".

This coincides with people who work extremely hard and have done so for decades (think of top tech founders... for example Jensen Huang: https://x.com/seanpk/status/1829526623731024055)

If you feel burnt out, chances are you're not getting the results you want. So instead of concluding "burnout is affecting my brain" I think the better reaction is to ask yourself "what needs to change?"

[py_or_dy]

Same, I noticed my decline about two years before I got covid (2019). Getting covid def didn't help. I've managed to work a pretty simple software dev job mostly fixing bugs and not under any time constraints. I think that helped, but then I just now got laid off because the company realized that they could outsource most of the software work to china and/or Philippines. That and the notion that along with AI, I don't think the American based software developer will ever be a thing again. Which that is making me depressed again...

[deepfriedchokes]

I have struggled with burnout, and I believe it’s a capacity thing, related to continuous trauma, and I’ve had success getting it treated the same way.

Sometimes this trauma can be something as simple as a toxic workplace, or choosing work over taking care of your own needs. It’s something I’ve struggled with throughout my life, and I’ve found talk therapy helps a lot, along with self care, and life changes. Psilocybin helps as well, to see things from different perspectives, like therapy does, and to mechanically loosen up those neural connections that are keeping us stuck.

Most people bounce back if removed from their source of trauma, but if it persists, or if you’ve become the source of your own trauma, consider therapy.

Burnout and depression and these things are your body trying to tell you something, that whatever you are doing isn’t working for you. Don’t fight it, listen to your body, reconnect with how you’re feeling and why in therapy, and make changes in your life. Feelings are the feedback on our actions. If you touch a hot stove and it hurts, that’s your body telling you to make a change. If living your life in a certain way, or working at a certain place, or having a certain person in your life is making you not feel good, that’s your body telling you to make a change.

[notepad0x90]

OP, I don't know a solution to this, but I'm curious if you've tried intensive exercise routines, low calorie diets, time in nature, cold showers, socializing and, working on your non-work life as a whole? I've seen this help me out in similar battles and I have also seen them recommended to others.

I also have a more general question to everyone on this thread, what is the difference between burnout and demotivation? How can one tell the difference?

[AH4oFVbPT4f8 → notepad0x90]

I've felt burnout and feel that I'm dealing with it now. I know doing exercise, a better diet, nature, will all help, but it's the motivation to start doing it. You wake up not wanting to go to work. You're at work, not wanting to go home. You're at home and don't want to go to sleep since it means you're just going to start the cycle again tomorrow. My issue is finding the motivation to start improving.

[wruza]

Burnt out badly in 2022, empty tank, few “can’t get up” episodes. It took six months and one trouble only to find a stable point in my mind, but recovering didn’t even start then. I’m almost two years floating free (thank myself being smart with money) and am even trying a couple activities this year, but it takes time to replace the broken parts.

All, ymmw, but take note you may not recover from it by simply taking a vacation.

Btw, distancing didn’t work for me. It was the opposite, I couldn’t work in an env that couldn’t care less as a whole.

Another note is that eat, shit and sleep system is in a strong feedback loop with all that.

Also, I was alone most of my life and fine with it, but living with a relative suddenly changed a few things that I can’t explain. Simple human presence shifts something, although I’m not craving for it and find it burdensome in general.

[tptacek]

Learning quickly and easily intuiting solutions for problems is something that will ebb and flow throughout your career. Totally normal. One symptom of burnout is getting anxious and hypervigilant about your effectiveness!

[jraph]

Burnout can also be bad to your relationships. It can break stuff because of your lack of energy and positivity.

It's not only caused by overwork and it's often a combination of things: overwork, lack of meaning, lack of recognition, misalignment with your values...

If you feel like you are slowing down and it starts being difficult to get started working for more than a few days, it is critically important to do something. Burnout sets up slowly and strongly and it's hard to notice.

A friend who has burned out and has been seeing a therapist who told him burnout is the brain breaking like an overused muscle. Burnout might be a defense from the brain against what harmed it. I don't know if it's true but I believe it's a better perspective than "I'm too strong for burnout" or "it's purely psychological" or "it's in your head".

Take care.

[mindentropy]

>- After: can't learn, can't work, can't remember, can't see solutions for trivial problems (e.g. if your shirt is wet, you can change it, but I stare at it thinking when it is going to get dried up)

I am having similar symptoms. I have suffered a lot at work, family problems and it conflicting with personal interests and hobbies. I trudged on with sheer will earlier and had unbounded enthusiasm, passion and motivation. Now everything is kind of broken and I feel I am just floating. Days passing by is just a blur. I have become completely disillusioned with society and its intentions and world just seems ultra complicated. I am not sure whether it is burnout as I don't have information of it nor do I have met people who suffer from it. I am not sure whether it is my age, diet or something else. :-(

[ants_everywhere]

In my opinion, everyone should try therapy at least once.

Just like you have a primary care physician for your general health, a dentist for your teeth, it makes sense to have a medical professional to help you with your brain.

I think of it as a best practice. Can you get by with out it? Sure. Will you be doing things optimally? Definitely not.

[treszkai → ants_everywhere]

"Try therapy" is so overly vague that I expect it's nearly useless for a sizeable chunk of people (especially among HN readers).

I've tried therapy with five different therapists in the last seven years. Every time I came away feeling the same, wondering if I'm doing it wrong or if I missed an instruction in primary school.

Can I get by without it? Apparently yes. Am I doing things more optimally with one? Marginally, at best.

[novia]

Is there any job out there where you can go without lying? Lying leads to burnout for me. Stretching tasks out makes me feel bad and maybe also leads to burnout. I just want to do an honest day's work without someone pressuring me to be insincere.

[Joel_Mckay]

The Ikigai (生き甲斐, lit. 'a reason for being') chart is quite helpful:

https://hyperisland.com/en/blog/thought-leadership/feeling-d...

In general, most techs usually just get bored after awhile, and seek something more interesting to pursue. Hobbies and sport participation sometimes helps, but if you are already at the burnout stage it usually requires a few years doing something else to recover.

Secretly, most fantasize about being a Plumber everyday... =3

[ornornor]

Went through a similar thing, two years on I’m still not recovered.

Just to say that even though it might not feel like it right now, it eventually gets better. You have to give it time. Sometimes a long time. And seek support from friends and family but also from a professional.

And once you’ve recovered, learn the signs so you can see it coming and prevent it. Leaving a shitty job or even a profession that doesn’t work for you anymore is always preferable than getting burnt out.

Good luck, friend!

[purple-leafy]

How are you doing now? I too suffered pretty severe burnout. I’m a programmer.

I realised my burnout came from working (5 days a week), feels like an unending marathon

What worked for me was dropping one full day of work each week. Now work 32 hours a week, really happy

[tiznow]

I'm dealing with burnout and unemployment, and it's legitimately the hardest time in my life to self-start and do anything other than basic life functions. Some days I have a wellspring of energy, but most days I'm just existing. I realized I don't even have the luxury of forgoing my mental health, if I don't work on it now things won't ever get better. And my programming skills aren't stagnating, but MAN I feel like I'm not getting better.

[bamboozled]

I've been through this quite a few times in my life, get outside some more, do some exercise (light), take it easy, you'll bounce back.

[shahzaibmushtaq]

I could be wrong, but burnout happens for any/all of 4 reasons:

1. Lack of complete focus and not prioritizing daily jobs

2. Multitasking

3. Trying to do almost everything by yourself instead of delegating

4. Not asking for help

I would also like to point out that self-doubt in your abilities, questioning your confidence and "I can't do this" mentality are detrimental to your mental health.

[gwathk]

Thanks for sharing and I have been in the similar situation before twice. The never-ending feeling of uselessness, stagnation and helplessness sucks real bad. and after a while I (re-)discovered the power of charity and routine.

You don't need something grandeur. Sometimes a routine of 5 minutes in the morning works. Write down the one thing you can do for others of the day that you can definitely get it done, and before you sleep you cross it out or not, and write down 1 small thing to be grateful to.

For example:

In the morning I wrote: I will say thank you with a smile to a random cashier in the supermarket when I do grocery.

At night I should be able to cross it out. Even if I cannot it is nothing to beat myself with. I will add 1 little thing to be grateful to, as small as able to post on HN works too!=)

Hope you can recover soon and regain your sense of self-worthiness soon. After all your are not (only) a learner and problem solvers. You are more than that =)

[mindcrash]

In the same boat, and I wanted to add the worst thing... your energy level (or lack thereof)

I used to be able to play games or work for hours (even without taking breaks)

Currently I can do some simple things like making breakfast, taking care of personal hygiene, or write this small comment without getting tired, but if things get a little bit more complex I am getting so exhausted that I need to go to bed for a while.

Take good care of yourselves people, having a brain quit on you most of the time really is not that great :(

[itsjustjordan]

I have this pinned and read it like once a month just as a refresher to not let it get that far

https://robinrendle.com/notes/take-a-break-you-idiot/

[anonymous_goat]

Despite a lot of the other comments suggesting "easy" fixes, untreated and long-lasting depression (in general) and burnout (specifically) can have these lasting effects. These do NOT seem to be treatable without psychiatric and medical intervention - the brain has spend too much time in a depressive state, and it can't get out of it by itself. Psycho therapy alone and other usual interventions (sleep, proper nutrition, positive stimulation) simply won't help anymore.

So, advise for everyone: real (in terms of "professionally diagnosed") depression and burnout for too long (over months and years) can break you in ways you can't imagine. Treat it early.

[tonymet]

Burnout isn’t working too hard, it’s not working on the right thing. You have to have a purpose .

I don’t mean “doing what you love “ – that’s futile. I mean finding a purpose for doing what you are doing

It should always be conquering the world . Not changing it . Changing it is a half measure

[nurettin]

I've had something similar before. Try to pick up hobbies, learn new things, check your blood values, it slowly gets better. All of your cells multiply and die. You are not the same organism from eight years ago.

[Summerbud]

I got burned out recently too, and it is such a frustrated feeling. And made me begin to think what it comes from and what is the root cause of it

I think in my experience, lack by appreciation is one of the reason

After thinking about it several month I wrote an article to help others cope with the situation of lacking appreciation

https://open.substack.com/pub/connectingdotsessay/p/apprecia...

Hope it can help others whom is entering the same situation

[SoftTalker]

Join a gym, one with real barbells, do Starting Strength for six months, getting physically exhausted 3 or 4 times a week does wonders for your mental health. I didn’t believe it until I did it.

[nunez → SoftTalker]

Everyone should do this program. Rip has issues, but he did the world a HUGE service by writing this and Practical Programming.

[ein0p → SoftTalker]

This also works, at least for men. Idk what it is, almost meditative rest between the sets, higher T, or making routine physical exertion easier due to being stronger. It does take some willpower though, which severely depressed/burned out people might not have.

[SoftTalker → ein0p]

Yes it takes some willpower, however I did not find it to be that big an issue and I say that as someone who was never athletic and has never been able to stick with an exercise program for more than a few weeks. But everything I tried in the past was cardio -- running, biking, swimming -- it all sucked. Weightlifting for some reason kind of stuck and I've been doing it regularly for a few years now. And specifically barbell lifting/powerlifting -- machines are OK for accessory work but they are boring.

YMMV of course.

[ein0p → SoftTalker]

My experience mirrors yours. I feel like this would depend on how quickly you make gains. When I started lifting I was so physically decrepit I’d sometimes have to lie down on the floor due to pain in my lower back. I literally started with just a bar, and within a year progressed to a 525 lb deadlift. That was fun. But if the gains were slower idk if I’d be able to keep my motivation

[rramadass]

You might find some advice listed here useful : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40978488

[JasserInicide]

I feel like I have the opposite problem. I started my new job at the tail end of the pandemic in mid-2021. It's been fully remote and I have never worked more than 20 hours in a week. Most weeks I can get everything I need to do in an average week in 2 days tops. Co-workers are great and the company's doing great but I have such little to do that it's kind of ruined my work ethic. I'm partially scared of leaving/going to a new job because I don't know if I can handle doing 40 hours again.

[azemetre → JasserInicide]

How do you feel about up skilling, contribute to open source, or even launch your own side projects? Or do you use your free time to enjoy life more?

I’d like to think I’d use the time to write a book but I’d probably just to chores around my home instead.

[markatkinson]

I burned out in 2021 quite badly. Moved to Zambia (from UK) and switched from primarily software engineering to wild mushrooms.

Still coded as a hobby and explored the parts of it I enjoyed.

Now in 2024 I'm back in the game and loving it! Glad I had the privilege to take such a long break and try something else. The key take away here is it took me years to properly recover (and therapy).

Go easy on yourself, don't get swept up in the frenzy of work. Work to live not the other way around.

[WheelsAtLarge]

I know what you mean. The fix is to get out and get a different job that's not in your current field. Make it a simple job and do it until you get better. Do not stay home and hope you'll somehow get cured. Try different things until you find something you can do and like. You'll find something but you have to work towards getting it. You will not suddenly find a way out, especially if you stay home and do nothing to change.

[armini]

I can't tell you how many developers feel this way, there is no reason for this to be the norm. Be sure to seek professional help but if you'd like someone to talk to someone who can relate feel free to book a time https://calendly.com/thanks_dev/30min

[treszkai → armini]

Is this a calendly link to you?

[neilv]

On the topic of burnout, besides oneself, of course burnout can also happen to others.

We can help colleagues avoid burnout, by proactively eliminating/reducing factors that contribute to burnout. Maybe also talk about it discreetly with a colleague who seems at-risk stressed/overextended.

Whether we're managers/leads or ICs.

[Wetime]

Burn out is something bad. But it learns so much to you. I have several friends and family who had it and the first lesson to learn is to accept it. Than you can start healing. Be aware. And 1 step at a time. Also it never really goes away . If I can do anything for you just ask

[zerr]

Pro tip: working part-time helps.

[s3micolon0]

Pro tip: When the mind and body feel out of sync, start with the physical.

It's natural, it's free, and it works wonders for your brain.

Whether it's gymming, running, walking, smiling, breathing, or any sport that excites you—just start and don't stop.

The key is to keep moving!

[andsmedeiros]

Depression is killing me. I'm losing this war.

[Wetime]

Burn out is nasty. I had several friends and family that have it. Step 1 is acceptance. 2. Be aware 3. It never goes away and dare to ask help. So if I cantaloupe you with anything just ask I be here for you

[martin82]

Did you get a covid shot recently?

Because that kind of brainfog is exactly what the covid shot gave me for about one entire year.

[__coder__]

It took me 1+ year to recover from it. Left the job, had no idea what to do for months. Now feeling a bit better, able to think clearly, also started learning new things again.

[rgoldfinger]

you might have long covid

[dlahoda]

it was fun for me.

i just forgot how to do my job. not exact operations or how to code. by what is exactly my job consist of what. for year like. and at same time appeared i started to do my job better as per 3rd parties feedback.

also i was thinking i am clever, but after just came realization i am far from. so i did learn some math and what are other people really are to catch up with the world.

just learn math, hear what boss/wife/child tell, no coffee , and some meditation of absolutely any kind.

after some years, i feel life as like walking in a forest with animals and random forestfires here and there.

[1dom]

I have a different view on this, maybe it's because I'm in the depths of burnout. I don't think I am - I walked away from my career in tech about 2 years ago, and it still feels like the right thing to do. Threads like this do make me think and question it a bit, so feedback appreciated.

The essence is I suspect there's a perfect correlation between the increased mention/awareness of burnout, and the stupid in-your-face selfish, aggressive capitalism that inspires many in VC backed tech leadership positions.

Everyone I've personally known who's experienced burnout has typically been an ultra-high achiever: they have a personality type that just wants the world to be better for everyone, and they go and try and do that. They do tech because that's what they've done since they could walk/talk. They're star employees when being themselves, but being themselves becomes impossible to sustain in an environment where a bunch of people just want to selfishly improve their own world without caring about others.

When I think about it this way, I then worry about the world we're creating by telling people with burnout to be more selfish, rather than telling the leaders and environments that lead to burnout that they're the problem.

Maybe that's all burnout talking though.

[nullderef]

I quit my job this month to pursue things that make me happier. Very hard decision but at least I'm happy to be trying! Best of luck, OP.

[obscuretone]

Burnout almost single-handedly ruined my life. Do not recommend.

[danielvaughn]

I feel this. Something happened to me after 2020, it was just this slow decline of my mental acuity. I’m trying hard to get it back, but it’s very difficult.

Take care.

[SillyUsername]

This may stop. I had a similar situation in 2019 but it was caused by post traumatic stress and an indifferent company.

Then I had post traumatic growth about 3-4 years after, I achieved 3 qualifications in 3 months, and within a year won a Hackathon, was promoted and became one of the highest performing people in my new job without even trying (PTG manifested the ability without any real conscious effort).

I put this down to some kind of repair mechanism. I still have some lesser depression but the post traumatic stress is gone.

The growth eventually stopped but I still perform at a marginally higher level than prior to the event without effort (e.g. distinctions in appraisals where previously it would be very good or similar).

My personality also changed, I no longer settle for shit and speak my mind frankly not caring very much about consequences (but never insulting other people).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_growth

[chiefrubberduck]

the book - from strength to strength - might help with understanding the transition between pre-40 and post-40 in terms of how one's brain works

[happyrock]

Exercise, sleep, nutrition, and screen time. Getting these right is life-changing.

[michaelbrave]

I have a pet theory that burnout and depression are mostly the same thing, just triggered by different things.

[GoToRO → michaelbrave]

They are just symptoms. Burnout - your brain can't function properly, depression - bad functioning brain usually has only negative thoughts. The root cause is somewhere in your body, your gut maybe. Why is the brain not receiving the fuel it needs?

[masonwr]

Slow productivity by Cal Newport helped me reframe work and my boundaries with it when I was on the edge of burn out.

[ddmf]

I had a convergence of a few things that caused a huge burnout - building work on my house, 18 month long software project implementation that eventually failed, and stress that comes from being a sole provider.

Ultimately I woke one day and couldn't talk, this went on for a couple of weeks. It wasn't until 4 to 6 weeks later that I could get out of bed. I just broke.

Discovered from this that I was autistic and had an autistic burnout, but I've not been the same since, I'm better than I was but lesser than before.

[FrankRay78]

Take a very long holiday without electronic devices; Nokia brick and decent camera aside.

[richrichie]

Brain going bad is burnout. Subtle, but important perspective that helps spot symptoms early on.

[corytheboyd]

Sorry to hear OP, hope you’re in a position to take some time off.

[steve_adams_86]

If I have one thing to share about burn out, it’s that I didn’t think I would get it. Maybe someone reading this is like I was.

I always and energy to do everything. I was often the hero making sure we recovered from errors over the weekend, we hit unrealistic deadlines, or we were prepared for stakeholders beyond what we thought was possible. I thought this was rewarding and that it would help my career, so it was worth it. I liked feeling useful and needed by my team.

It seemed for a decade or so that this fountain of energy, what I assumed was innate enthusiasm, would never end. It seemed like the natural thing to do.

Well, eventually real life happened. I had kids to care for. I had a relationship to maintain. I couldn’t continue working time and a half in perpetuity. Weekend projects and learning got sidelined.

The healthy response to this would be recognizing how crazy it was in the first place. Instead I doubled down in both directions. I’d be an awesome parent and partner, AND I’d keep doing my best at work. It’ll be easy I said, I just need to manage my time better. I just need to plan and strategize. It’s only hard right now because I’m working hard, not smart.

I was wrong. Everything suffered. I began to resent myself for it, steadily whittling down my self esteem and confidence. I brought a worse version of myself to everything I did. And worse all the time.

I wish I was kidding but this gradual descent took a decade. It wasn’t just burn out. It was a complete restructuring of my internal monologue and outward lens on the world. I became incredibly depressed. It wasn’t until years, literally years, of intense burn out that I began to consider that I was experiencing burn out.

Burn out is a trendy buzz word, I figured. Work is supposed to be challenging. People the world over have found work hard for all of time and that’s precisely why it’s called work, right?

I had endless excuses for why I needed to work harder. I needed to stop going so easy on myself. Yet simultaneously I felt overwhelmed with the expectations I believed people had of me. Life gradually began to seem something like impossible. How could I possibly do all of this stuff?

Thinking this was normal was my ultimate undoing. I never stopped to think shit, Steve, you’ve got some dumb ideas. Take a break. Relax. Do less. I kept insisting to myself that it was all expected, required, necessary. By failing to do all of it I wasn’t experiencing the natural consequence of taking on too much… I was discovering that I was incompetent, unskilled, intelligent, etc.

Please don’t let yourself be me. It snuck up on me in the craziest way. I thought I was smarter than that, frankly. I don’t consider myself particularly smart, but I thought this would be relatively easy to avoid. I figured the signs would be obvious.

They probably are to others. For you, it might be incredibly insidious and entrenched much deeper than you’d imagine.

Maybe the best strategy is caring for yourself. My burn out was the product of insecurity and feeling the need to put others first almost relentlessly. Don’t do that. You matter as much as the people around you. Take care of yourself.

[FrenchTouch42 → steve_adams_86]

Thank you for sharing, your story really hit home for me.

For years, I've been one of the people to step up: solving problems, hitting crazy deadlines, being the "hero" etc. I thought if I just kept pushing, it would pay off. But somewhere along the way, I realized that no matter how much impact I truly had, I was still just another employee, not truly breaking through to the level where I could make the difference I wanted. And the worst part is that I'm fully aware of it, yet I still deal with it because I haven't found the success I'm looking for.

Burnout doesn't hit all at once: it sneaks up on you when you're too busy solving everyone else's problems. I ignored it for too long, thinking it was just part of the job. For those of us who thrive on tackling the "impossible", it's easy to forget that you need to take care of yourself. Being the one who makes things happen shouldn't come at the cost of your well-being. It's okay to step back and prioritize yourself. You're worth so much more than just the work you do.

Combine Cassandra and savior syndromes, and it's been a terrible recipe for my health. I've learned that no amount of foresight or effort can substitute for the need for balance and self-care.

To anyone reading this, especially those in leadership, it's important to recognize the people truly making a difference. And for those who feel like they're giving everything and it's still not enough, sometimes stepping back and valuing yourself is the most powerful move you can make.

True leadership isn't about being the hero; it's about knowing when to put your own mask on first. You can't pour from an empty cup.

[steve_adams_86 → FrenchTouch42]

This all hits home for me, too. A lot of great points. It’s somewhat reassuring to read that others have such similar experiences. It’s not nice to know others are struggling, but nice to know that it all makes sense, I guess. There’s a pattern, something to work with, we’re not just crazy, etc.

The empty cup analogy is great one. When burn out first started to cause problems for me I went and spoke with someone, and they used this analogy. I thought it was a bit silly for the first 5 minutes and then it hit me. I really did feel empty. I felt exactly like I had nothing to give other people. I was the empty cup, craving something to fill it. That was a strange day for sure. Since then the analogy has stuck with me and crosses my mind regularly.

[apwell23]

I recently read that cynical people can die 7 yrs easier and suffer from host of diseases . My burnout is mainly from cynicism towards the world.

My worldview is that you have to taken under the wing of an influential person( usually a white man) to go anywhere in the world.

for example, I just cannot get over the fact that Paul Graham knew within 3 minutes of meeting sam altman that he was going to the next bill gates and that he superpower was that he is 'Michael jordan of listening' . These are actual quotes, not parody. A totally unimpressive person like sam altman with no tangible accomplishments grifted his way to stratosphere because paul graham gave the teenager 4% stake in stripe for 15k, for what reason i don't know ( well i have some creepy guesses but i will keep them to myself).

I quote this example because a lot of ppl around here believe in meritocracy and are spinning their wheels with nothing to show for.

[badpun → apwell23]

The easy solution for that is to not care if you're "in the stratosphere". Being too ambitious is setting oneself for failure and then for cynicism (because, by definition, only a few people can make it to the top, so your odds are very bad).

I'm just a regular guy like everybody else, but I don't envy people like Sam Altman or Paul Graham in the slighest. What they (in terms of money and success, influence etc.) have is just not that interesting to me, I'd much prefer having two more hours of good focus per day, than having a billion dollars (or however much they each have) - you can do much more interesting things with focus than with money.

[iamthejuan]

Get well, OP. There was a time in me that I have been working for hours in front of my laptop then suddenly I feel like I just woked up working and I cannot remember much of what I was doing in the past couple of hours working. Strange experience but I know it is a burnout, I have resigned and moved to another job after that.

[winter_blue]

Thank you. This is a good reminder.

[valval]

Hey OP, you should read about the carnivore diet and possibly give it a try. It clears brain fog right up and helps with cognitive function.

[winrid]

Sounds more like depression...

[imvetri]

For faster recovery, lift weight over your head. Increase weight gradually.

[rain1]

> Take care of your mental health

How?

[OutOfHere]

Possible iron deficiency.

[GoToRO]

You know when you are burned out and you seek advice from other people? Brain fog? exercise, magnesium and so on Can't sleep? drink milk Tired? Eat well, take vitamins

I did all these and while it did help, it also felt like I was returning $1 on a $1 million debt.

So the wort burnout I've got was due to some stomach bug. This prevented the normal absorption of food and soon enough I was running on fumes (while still being quite active).

What's interesting is that at this point all those advises don't actually solve anything, they might even make things worse.

Brain fog? you don't get any fuel for your brain, so yes brain frog. Do you also exercise or do some treks? Your fuel tank is empty and you force your body to eat into your body to take what it needs. It will make you fell worse, not better. If you exercise and almost immediately feel sleepy, that's a clear sign. Can't sleep? yes, chronic illness will do that to you. Your body is in a state of panic because it knows that something is very wrong. You don't fall asleep anymore, you just collapse from being awake for too long. Depressed? all your days start to look a like, chronic illness will do that to you. Anxious? you drink chamomile tea? will not fix the underlying issue. Nice try.

So you find the actual problem and you fix it. Now you are OK, right? well no. You are missing all the minerals and all the vitamins your body could not absorb. I took some multivitamins and that felt good, some magnesium and I felt only a little better and the last one was Vitamin C. That felt amazing. All the muscle and joint pain, and lack of focus disappeared. Suddenly I could focus, I could exercise, I could cook for myself, go out and so on. Only from this point forward I can follow those well meaning advises.

Not sure from where I took the bug, my guess is the water. Given that a lot of people don't actually have access to good water I think it's very common. Also a big problem is that you don't actually feel ill. I never had diarrhea for example. It starts very innocent as a mood change and nothing else: you don't quite feel it today, a little hard to focus, you sleep a little worse next day/week/month and now you are even less able to focus, but you blame it on the bad sleep and so on. The things compound and once you are in that hole it's much harder to get out.

So my advice is if you have a bad mood for a long period of time, then you might have something physically wrong with you and look into that. No amount of meditation, tea or anything else, can fix that for you.

Interestingly I had periods in which I felt better. It turns out I was consuming Coca-Cola which has a slight antibacterial effect. But given that I didn't know the root cause at the time, I felt worse when I was trying to live healthy and so I stopped the Coke.

[zuzuleinen → GoToRO]

How did you got tested for your stomach bug?

[GoToRO → zuzuleinen]

I didn't. But the there was one person on TV that casually made a comment about his unexpected weight lost and that he did visit a doctor and that's what it was. For me the explanation hit so close home that I immediately audited all I ate and drank and took action. Then that left me with gastritis which made me feel about the same and only slightly better. I search fir gastritis diets and followed that about 6 days. I also took an antiacid when I felt bad. After that I realized that I need to eat more food, because I was a little more active but didn't have enough energy. I learned to avoid the food that made me sick and I needed to unlearn this: carbs, beans, meat, milk. If you become sick enough, all food feels like poison. Then I realized I was missing probably all the vitamins, that's what it means you don't absorb the food. I felt good after some multivitamins, some magnesium and really good after Vit. C: higher appetite, less muscle and tendons pain, more energy. Now I'm at the point when I can go to the gym again and not feel like I need to sleep right now after 3 squats.

[0xEF]

Fellow burn-out, here. For about 3/4 years, I have noticed a massive increase in my Depression and Generalized Anxiety Disorder. My wife has also noticed my personality changes that have occured, and my general loss of interest in things that used to bring me joy.

I was diagnosed with Depression and GAD in 2000 after a fairly long and drawn out process that told me something I already knew. In the nearly 25 since, I have been hyperaware of the impact exteenal factors have on my conditions and over-all state of being.

In the event that it helps anyone, even a single person reading this, here is what I have learned:

1. It's okay to walk away from a toxic work environment. I have done a lot of work in factories over the years. Between the harsh conditions, unrealistic expectations and juvenile masculinity, I was getting mentally beat to a pulp because I thought I was supposed to uphold the status quo in those places. The status quo, as it turns out, is set by people who are more miserable than you and want to drag you to Hell with them. Let them go and walk away. Being driven to the point of drug abuse (or worse) is not worth any paycheck.

2. You are greater than the sum of your parts. You are not your job, your hobbies, your clothes, etc, but an amalgamation of all those things that is not necessarily unique, but a whole and contributing person, and that cannot be taken from you unless YOU allow it to be.

3. Avoid seeking reason for everything outside your control. The sooner you accept the Universe has no plan that you can comprehend, the better. It is a chaotic, irrational place from our tiny perspective and not a useful line of inquiry. Instead, your energies can be turned to your reason for your own actions and reactions, the only things you can really control.

4. Be firm but fair with self-honesty. Your faults are also opprtunities to improve, not road blocks. This will ne exceptionally difficult, but your strengths will see you through. My personal rule is to never stop tryinh to ne better than I was yesterday, for falling stagnant is no different than being dead.

5. Leave your spaces better than you found them...not just for other people, but also for yourself. When we take care of our immediate environments, we tend to feel more focused and energized. My depression stints are often followed by house-cleaning, and it surprises me every single time how cluttered and disoriented I allowed things to get.

I believe people with Anxiety and Depression are more prone to burnout than others, and in the societies that tend to demand more of us than we can give, be it as workers, lovers, consumers or citizens, we are a particularly vulnerable population. That means we must fight harder.

My burnout has taken me to dark, dark places, and there are lights that keep me going. Right now, I am mustering what evergy I can to help my son learn to cope with these things while teaching myself new skills so I can make a move into a career that will be more rewarding and inline with my personal ethos.

What works for you? What helps with burnout, and the anxiety/depression that tends to come with it?

[democracy]

old age happened, noble man )

[black_13]

I am currently working for Boeing and its a disaster. I get constant hell from my manager because i stop at 40.

[buildsjets → black_13]

Just tell him sorry, our messaging systems are incompatible until we both are on Office 365, didn't get your IM. Should be good for at least a few more years at this rate.

[hunterrrrrr]

lol it’s funny how many of these class warfare topics popped up over the last 2 hr. Anyway, if anyone thinks burnout is real maybe take a look at Nvidia. Paying people more money is a pretty straightforward way to retain them. But that’s not the message that is being astroturfed on hacker news right now, the message is that if you refuse to work in certain conditions you’re burned out, or that your struggle is with management, or whatever. It’s really important for no one to ask themselves to explain why a 10% year over year increase on a median priced single family home in California is literally a form of passive income that exceeds the median salary. Did you get an $80k raise this year? Know anyone who did? Know any companies who are handing out these raises? DM me. I’m at FAANG right now not seeing any of it