The last couple of months I had to eat out frequently, so I experienced all sorts of dark patterns in tipping. There are two which I found almost everywhere -
1. The server shoves the handheld tiny device in your face presenting with 3 options: 20%, 22%, and 25%. There is a small button at the bottom to select "Other" amount. You click that because you want to pay maybe 15%. But then it brings up an input box for the precise amount of the tip you want to pay. Unless you already know this amount, your options are awkwardly calculate the tip while the server is impatiently watching you or suck it up and go back to the default tipping menu. In many of these restaurants the server brought the bill and asked for the payment at the same time so I had no time to pre-calculate the tip.
2. In almost all the restaurants, the device tacked on the tip on post sales tax amount. In Texas the sales tax is 8.25%. So a 20% tip ends up being roughly 22%.
Sure, the few extra dollars don't make a dent in my finances. It is not the spending that hurts, it is the feeling of getting manipulated in real time that kills me.
In addition to the constant barrage of tip requests, the percentages keep going up (tipflation). My dad taught me over a decade ago that you tip 10-15% based on service. A few years ago, it became 15-20%, then 18-22%, and now we're expected to tip 20-25%, and at more places than before.
I'm not opposed to helping people out with tips (it's not the waiter's/waitress' fault they're paid garbage), but when companies are making record profits by jacking up prices and gimping on paying their workers more, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Having been paid a tipped wage, I have for half a century tipped 20%, almost invariably without regard to the service. For the first thirty years, this was thought to be on the generous side, now I guess I'm a piker.
I will say that on a recent vacation to Italy, where tipping seems to be just not done--none of the credit card slips had a line for tip--I found I didn't miss it.
I don’t know why you are getting downvoted. I was a waiter. It’s absolutely a choice. There are many other jobs in a restaurant and you can choose which one you want to do. I was a cook, waiter, dishwasher, busboy, and host, all at one restaurant.
It's neither the wait staff, nor the business. It's market forces. Wait staff are becoming increasingly unskilled labor (partly due to technology in restaurants, partly because wait some staff have become shitty/belligerent and people realized they don't actually care if someone calls them "honey", it's not worth $20 of tips to them...) I'll happily take my meal with a "go f yourself" it it means i get $20 off.
Especially in places where there's not even real service (e.g. having to dispose of dishes yourself etc)
But at the end, it is a structural problem. If the job can't pay a minimum to live a normal life, then the business should be restructured to allow fewer but better jobs, in my view.
if you're open to a suggestion you never asked for -- consider reading the book "When I say no I feel guilty" It really really helped me, personally. I hope it's a good suggestion for you too.
Pretending that every person in the world can work whatever job they want is worse than sugar coating reality. It borders on malicious deception to me.
Sure, I'm all for taking your fate in your own hands. But most people in the world work because they have to make a living, and can't freely choose their job.
If they even have the luxury of a formal job with a minimum of workers rights, that enables them to maintain themselves and e.g. have health insurance.
>Pretending that every person in the world can work whatever job they want is worse than sugar coating reality.
Sure, except I did not say or indicate anything remotely that extreme.
Many people equate being a server at an average restaurant to an unskilled minimum wage job (and it is). In that same general category you have:
- Cashier
- Retail worker
- Telemarketer
- Receptionist
- Warehouse labor
None of these people are forced to take food service jobs, there are other options in the same skill/pay category.
To me, it is far greater malicious deception that we have a category of business that is essentially allowed to advertise false pricing, where as a customer you are expected to routinely pay much more than the stated price for things.
If a cup of coffee should be $6, instead of $4.50 plus a tip, just make the coffee $6 and pay the worker minimum wage.
> To me, it is far greater malicious deception that we have a category of business that is essentially allowed to advertise false pricing, where as a customer you are expected to routinely pay much more than the stated price for things.
I agree with you on that.
"Malicious deception" was not intended as a personal attack, I understand if it sounds like that. I tried to express how far off from reality this is when looking at all kinds of work, not only waiters.
I can sympathize with preferring being a waiter to e.g. unskilled factory or warehouse jobs.
There are just so many break-neck types of work that destroy the health of anyone doing them...
in short: my point wasn't much more than "markets aren't fair and some people have to choose between bad options"
Can you share your vision for a world where everyone takes these opportunities and no one is a waiter? Do we not have restaurants? What about other low wage labor? Do people working for sweatshop wages in developing countries also have other opportunities they're not taking or is something else going on there?
But for starters, it would be perfectly viable for people to be waiters, and to even have tips be a component of their wage. But there needs to be the recognition that the tips still need to be earned. That can start at the more legacy value of 10-15% for simply doing a decently basic job, and ramp up from there. However today we are seeing a progression towards some of the these workers expecting >20% for absolute minimum effort.
The primary alternative would be that the restaurant charges the actual price required to pay people a competitive wage, which is the basic approach in almost every other type of business.
The menu prices/product prices DO adjust to inflation. They aren't in perfect lockstep sure, but the restaurant/biz needs cost covered/some margin to stay in business.
In theory, 15% 30 years ago is the same 15% in 2023.
I’m uncomfortable with tipping zero, knowing how servers are paid in the US. But it also seems wrong to tie the tip to the price, when the work is comparable.
I’m going to think about an alternative minimum tip, maybe something like:
- $1 per item for a takeout counter
- $5 per person at sit down service
- $10 for an average delivery
If everyone did that, a couple of things would happen:
- servers would have to push for higher pay
- restaurants and bars would raise their prices
The advantage is this would be predictable and understandable for everyone. In Europe and elsewhere, reasonable pay is assumed, and you tip rarely for exceptional service. That’s really where things need to go.
I like the way it is in Europe. Another good thing, at least in Germany, is that the menu prices already include taxes so I know exactly how much I am going to pay for the meal. I think this is true for all the European countries.
I have heard people saying that without tips we would get crappy service. In my experience, tipping is pervasive to this extent only in the US and I don't see any difference in service quality on average. In fact, compared to some countries like Thailand, US service might be considered terrible!
> I have heard people saying that without tips we would get crappy service.
I don't think the math supports this either.
If you can do a 50% as good job and work two tables; even if tips decrease by 50% it's technically good for business as 2 meals were served with one employee. Obviously if people are debating between 10% for poor service and 15% for great service then the employee comes out ahead as well.
Tipping originally existed because it was a way for black americans to work without being paid a wage.
Where I live, the minimum wage for servers is ~$35,000 and goes up every year, which is a better wage than in much of Europe. It has done nothing to dissuade tipping on top of that, which can often double their income.
I like to tip based on the local minumum wage (or on the higher end if the service was exceptional, my own wage) and how long I have sat at the table for.
So if the minimum wage was $10/hour and I have sat at the table for 45 minutes, then the tip is $7.50. I don't feel i should be paying the servers wages directly, but at least this seems like a fair rate to me for doing the portion of that hours work.
I mean, everyone knows that tipping culture in the US has become unhealthy (it probably always was). Many many people would prefer to end it.
The only way tipping is going to end, is if people stop doing it. There's not going to be some higher authority who one day says "OK now it's socially acceptable and no one's going to be upset if you stop, the world will get better, no friction required."
You have to stop, tell the business why you're stopping, and tell other people to stop.
I 100% agree that simply not tipping, and not doing additional avenues of change (such as intentionally patronizing restaurants which are no-tip / living wage), then really the root might actually be greed/selfishness.
Servers sharing tips with management is illegal in the United States at the federal level, and can and should be reported to the appropriate labor protections board. In California, that's the California Labor Commissioner's Office, every state has their own.
Meanwhile, the boss still has their hand in the tip jar until a formal inquiry can get started and completed. Maybe in a year or so they’ll rule in favor of the employee and the employer will have to pay up… eventually. In the meantime, the employees still have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Even though something like that is illegal, our current system often denies justice by delaying it.
At a certain point "take the ball and go home" becomes the rational decision if a player in the game isn't being treated fairly. In this case, tipping zero becomes the simplest option.
Tips encourage artificial menu pricing, which disguises the intended price of a service.
Customers are being socially pressured into tipping more than they otherwise would want to. Social pressure is not a fair mechanism in a market.
Another pattern is where servers are expecting 20% tips in addition to 5-10% "Employee Healthcare/Benefits/Wage" Surcharges. Sure, health insurance is a critical need but that should be baked into the price of the food being sold. Patrons are then pressured to effectively give a total 25-30% for service, in addition to the advertised price of food. Insane.
Sorry that servers are caught in the cross-fire on this but their employers decided to use them as fodder.
Why is "stiffing the staff" bad but surprise pricing to customers is tolerable?
If the pricing practices are disclosed up front, yeah that's clearly stiffing the staff, but that's simply not the case here.
I'm referring to the game where you're lured into a service with an ambiguous ruleset for pricing.
The pricing rules aren't disclosed until it is time to pay. When it is time to pay, you're now given an increasingly difficult puzzle to solve in order to tip what you intend to, without manipulation.
Expecting anyone to solve this puzzle is unreasonable.
I'm not defending surprise pricing or tipping at all. But up until you pay you have the option to not pay. If this is a big concern of yours you should take that option.
I agree that if at any point you suspect the pricing isn't fair in any transaction, it's up to you to leave. If someone checks Yelp and sees red flags on tipping but still decides to go and complain about it, they're being a jerk.
But many sit-down restaurants don't give any indication about the tipping procedures until after a meal is served and consumed.
so instead of tipping zero, since that implies the ability to decide, tip something that might be less jerk and make the decision to not return, perchance?
and if you aren’t given a choice, and it isn’t advertised, well, that’s a different predicament. same solution. you aren’t going to refuse to pay, so refuse to return.
Because this is unique to America and (mostly) restaurant service?
And because it’s ridiculous. I want to eat, not figure out how much to pay your employees. Part of a business’ job is to abstract the business-y stuff away from me so I can just enjoy a meal.
Otherwise, if it’s a hassle, I’ll just cook more at home. I can cook just as well, I eat out for the experience and to not deal with hassles.
In the short term, the employee. In the long term, as people leave due to lack of tip pay, service degrades and customers stop showing up due to the degrading service, the employer. Tipping as a requirement needs to go. Pay them a minimum wage because it shouldn’t be the customers problem. If a business owner cannot do that, the business should not exist.
I never said it’s just. Don’t put words into other peoples mouths if you intend to argue in good faith. If you want systemic change, then that is what I believe has to happen. Please provide a better idea
exactly what was already said, systemic change. don’t go where you don’t support, rather than half-ass it.
hopefully you can understand how, based upon having already explained that, it would be possible to make an assumption in good faith. since you didn’t seem to notice the first time, it would appear to be a passive rejection.
shall we continue? assuming you also wanted to discuss in good faith. who wanted to argue?
When I'm confused, I kill no braincells, I tip 10%, so I just move the decimal and done. If I'm annoyed, I tip $0. I think in the US most people don't have a frame of reference of what it's like to not have this social pressure to tip. You feel much better when you tip without being forced. Also, as a foreigner, American workers and businesses have no idea how vexing it is for a tourist to land, have a budget and realize that they're 30% short because of tipping everything from expensive Uber rides to hotels and luxury spas. This is basically the US tourist tax, even though all our money is going to already stay there.
There a probably quite a few uber drivers that hate me now, because they try to give me the all star ride, have a conversation, hear all my compliments (bc they keep nagging if everything is to my liking, if I want music or the AC adjusted), and then get zero tip. I absolutely do not feel an ounce of remorse. Why? Because I have also come to understand that they're not really providing quality service because they care. They're all gaming the system and manipulating customers. here's an example: I once needed an Uber from NJ to NYC, urgently. One quickly responded, arrived, started chatting and being friendly, started the trip and after I loaded all my stuff into the car, she looked at the destination and told me they would not drive to NYC, that I should get out. She left and did not cancel the trip. I had to contact Uber to get refunded. My point is, the 5 star friendliness ended the second I stopped being profitable for her, and at that point I stopped mattering.
So yeah, smile away, no tips unless I am wowed beyond my expectations.
you've got to keep in mind, this approach to tipping is the employer setting the customer against the employee - the employee might think you're their foe, but the truth is, it's both of you against their bosses. they can be pissy about it all they like, but you don't have to be responsible for their lack of perspective, and you definitely don't have to cave to peer pressure. if anything, you should be very very suspicious of situations where you're pressured to pay, period.
>The server shoves the handheld tiny device in your face presenting with 3 options: 20%, 22%, and 25%
That would be the last time I eat there. And I wouldn't blame the waiter but the manager. The wage should be very low if they resort to such patterns in order for personnel to not leave them. If I pay for my food, why doesn't he pay his employees?
As another example somewhat reflective of a position of privilege this just pushes me further and further towards "fine dining".
In daily life I cook simple and (extremely) healthy meals at home. Even with the increasing price of groceries this can be accomplished at very low cost. I've never tabulated it but my total grocery spend is likely somewhere in the range of a few hundred dollars/mo (max).
I've always been taught to see eating out as a luxury. An event that should be enjoyed and experienced as such - not a daily thing. When my social circle and I eat out it almost always feels like a celebration (or actually is) and between this approach and our overall financial status we have little (if any) price sensitivity. This happens a couple of times a month on average, with the occasional quick lunch being at what are probably best described as "fast casual" restaurants where you prepare yourself to deal with stuff like this and can tap some tip amount, eat to survive, and just get out of there. It's much easier to accept when it's not a daily shake down.
In all of the establishments we patronize you get professional, extremely polished, and highly skilled wait staff - what I refer to as "six figure servers". The overall experience is night and day from the moment you walk in and these establishments will never deploy these methods because they know you're there largely for the experience - the total package. Something like this completely ruins it at a key point in time (the end of the meal). In the US at least (at these establishments) getting handed a terminal with a series of hustles, bad UX, etc would completely ruin the impression and overall "feel" of the business. I wouldn't come back to such a place and I doubt many (or any) of their target customers would.
While you still hear horror stories of bad tippers at these establishments more often than not the experience is so professional and of such high quality (incredible) we find ourselves tipping 25% MINIMUM - which on a meal at least $100/person means a server on a decent night is walking out with at least $1000. 2-3 "good nights" a week (50 weeks) is $150k/yr gross. Throw in a few occasional large parties and/or big spenders (wine, etc) and they are often looking at $1k-$2k (or more) in tips per table. Even when split with other members of staff everyone is well beyond minimum or even living wage.
I much prefer spending ~$500/mo eating out a couple of times at very high quality restaurants vs eating out a couple of times a week and dealing with stupid stuff like this. You learn to actually appreciate it vs being some routine and mundane thing and you end up with the kinds of experiences that with memory only get better with time. My friends and I frequently recall specific meals (which are truly events) and talk about them years later.
Well worth it and everyone comes out further ahead. The sit down "terminal hustle" places need to exist for a variety of reasons but my friends and I aren't spending our money there.
I'm in the States right now. It's ridiculous. Most of the places I go to I do everything. Order the coffee, wait for it to be made, go to the sugar station to add some sugar... yet they still want 18 to 25 percent tip, which is already selected on the tablet that they turn to you.
We have tips in Brazil as well, but it's on places that the waiter almost carry you on their back. They sit you do, talk to you about the menu, take your order, bring you your food, there's almost always free coffee after a meal that the waiter brings to you...
Remember when Uber and all the other gigwork apps boasted of their "no tipping" rules, differentiating themselves from old-fashioned cabs and delivery services?
Every single one of them have added a big fat tip button now. Uber shows you the tip screen before the driver has even arrived!
Relatedly, I don't know when Starbucks started asking for tips but it seems like a recent phenomenon although I am not a regular there. A tip on top of $6 coffee in a drive through is ridiculous too.
If it doesn't it's highly illegal under California law, and I'm pretty sure Federal law. Hasn't stopped Uber before, but hey, another lawsuit to get the workers paid would always be cool.
One thing that blew my mind about the U.S. is that there is a federal minimum wage, but employers in professions where where workers receive tips are exempt for as long as the combined income from tips and wages meet the minimum wage threshold. They aren't actually tips, but a subsidy for the employer, who then only has to cover the difference.
Of course, under such circumstances, the employers have every reason to incentivize a "tipping" culture in every industry. It's no surprise to me you see evidence of an increasingly generalized idea of what a tip is. One of my favorite examples is that of asking for tips before a service has even been rendered. That's reasonably called a bribe, not a tip.
It's worth pointing out that individual states, counties, and cities also have their own minimum wages, and some eliminate the so-called "tipped" minimum wage entirely. The federal minimum wage is just there to stop the South from rebranding slavery again.
For the first time this year I’ve begun seeing tip requests on run-of-the-mill e-commerce sites. The premise is that you’re tipping the person packing the order. But I’m
deeply skeptical.
I suppose it takes minutes to code it up on their order form; so why not? But it leaves me with a negative impression of the site when I see it.
And to me this extremely weird. At least in restaurant or hotel or whatever. I have gotten the service when I decide to tip or not.
But setting tip before delivery? What if they failed to pack fragile item properly? I could understand asking it for later, but before I have seen result of the work is pure insanity...
That's... likely illegal. Tips in the US absolutely must go directly to the employee, cannot be shared with management, and can only be pooled with workers without hire/fire authority. Maybe they're doing that, but I'm dubious.
Just do it like Australia, with everything incorporated into the price.
Tips are supposed to be around for good service. But after eating at hundreds of restaurants my experience is almost always just the server bringing the food and asking how it is a couple times. Maybe there's a delay. Not much difference.
Tips are also supposed to encourage good customer service...but now we have online reviews.
The other issue with this is that sometimes people don’t tip servers because they liked the service / want to support underpaid staff / etc. People will tip in these situations because they want to be perceived by others as good tippers. This is why those flip screens broadcast your tipping decisions to the entire line behind you and everyone you’re with—capitalizing on peer pressure. I’m sure that if there was a separate tipping voting booth where nobody could know your tipping decision, tip income would crater.
I've thought for about the past six months that the only stable end-state for this is the total elimination of tipping in American culture. Once the dam was breached on the old agreements, it becomes nothing but a straight-up tragedy of the commons writ large. There is no reason for anyone not to try for a tip [1]. And in the process, essentially eat all the grass in the commons until there isn't any anymore.
Fortunately for this go-around of the Tragedy of the Commons, the end-state where there is no tipping for anyone isn't exactly a disaster. The world will adapt just fine. Perhaps it'll even be nicer than the relatively random state it was in before to have clear rules about tipping that can more-or-less expressed in the single word, "No".
Some companies are trying no tipping: they put the expected tip on the base item and explicitly say “we don’t accept tips”.
AFAIK it’s not going well for them, partly because the “expected tip” tends to be 20%, but also because consumers just see the higher price and subconsciously it’s worse than lower price + tip. Remember, these are the consumers who allegedly tanked the “1/3 lb burger” because they perceived 1/3 < 1/4.
They're just too far ahead of the game. Hatred for tips is growing but not past the, err, tipping point yet. Or non-tipping point, if you prefer.
But my main point is, nothing is going to stop the tipping train until it rams into a wall. With "sometimes I get some tip money, especially when I use dark patterns" on one side of the ledger, the increasing annoyance people have with tipping is just going to be ignored and therefore grow until it boils over.
We're not there yet. But barring some sort of legislative intervention, we are going to get there. There's no stopper between here and there anymore. Don't know when, but I can't imagine it'll be 10 years or anything.
They also struggle to hire. A no-tip restaurant pretty much necessarily ends up paying their employees worse than they would get otherwise, because tipping is effectively a means of price discrimination: People willing to pay more pay more and people willing to pay less still pay something, just less. Price discrimination captures a portion of the surplus value that is left on the table when a price is set lower than some fraction of the market is willing to pay, and in the case of tipping that substantial surplus value goes directly into the employees pockets.
I can tell you that I absolutely do remember which of the restaurants I visit have no-tipping/tipping-included policies, because it leaves me with a feeling of relief. I feel some extra loyalty to those businesses.
Systems designed for the US have made their way to Germany, and we're seeing more and more of this in a society where tip was very much optional. Many of my friends said that they refuse to tip with those machines out of principle.
Part of the issue is pressure from the employees themselves to implement these kinds of systems— because what sane employee wouldn’t want more money?
I think we’re going to see the practices around tipping only expand in the future and permeate in to more countries. It seems like a system that has no real mechanism to be undone. It is next to impossible to convince employees that removing tips is a good idea when they will see an immediate cut to their income
> Part of the issue is pressure from the employees themselves to implement these kinds of systems— because what sane employee wouldn’t want more money?
The shoeshine boy Orwell wrote about in Homage to Catalonia, incensed that Orwell added a tip to his given wage?
The funny thing is that I don’t like interacting with people over basic things like food. Am I supposed to tip for the disprivilege as well? (Well I live in a culture where people are paid a wage so no, not normally.)
On the scale from a bazaar where you have to spell out every gram of item that you want to a supermarket self-checkout I’m firmly on the supermarket side.
I think it's interesting to consider the effect of something like Doordash or Uber et al. As a consumer ordering from a restaurant, if I'm visiting the restaurant I'm encouraged to overpay by 20-25% and I'd say that the expectation is that those tips are shared between the front and back of house, at least to some degree.
With Uber Eats, I'm getting the same food without that same expectation. Granted, these delivery services expect a tip of their own but there isn't the same expectation of those tips to be shared, despite the percentages being similar. That said, anecdotally I feel much less guilty tipping a "normal" 10-15% on a delivery than at a restaurant, which incentivizes me to just order delivery instead of going to the restaurant.
Is there going to be some shift in dining the way there has been in retail? I don't know, I'm not an analyst, but it's interesting food for thought.
I have Walmart+ which includes free delivery. In the app, there is an option to tip the delivery driver.
I initially would tip the driver in the app, but then I realized, that this is the exact service I am paying a subscription to Walmart for. It is Walmart's responsibility to use that subscription to pay their workers, not mine. So I stopped tipping.
This one affects your service though, a higher tip means your order gets picked up earlier and by a more experienced driver (one who got the ratings to see orders first and is smart enough to only take deliveries which are worth it).
Also, I assume that the people working these services are particularly poor, because these are easy to get jobs which provide quick money, but don’t pay as well as a regular job. So tipping in this case is donating moreso than tipping a waiter. Maybe I’m wrong though.
I don't understand how an increase in the tip percentage is justified. The base price is already experiencing inflation, why should the tip percentage on top of that also inflate?
The worst part is that, FOH wants tips for doing almost nothing, but when BOH wants to share in the tips, you might as well have told them that you killed their parents.
> The worst part is that, FOH wants tips for doing almost nothing, but when BOH wants to share in the tips, you might as well have told them that you killed their parents.
That's funny
but if I am a server/ front of house
and I have to share tips with back of house
you better all be standing with me
soaking in the spit and all
when a customer yells at me
I would give zero tips if I could. The problem is the spitting in the food and other bullshit like that. I know of people and restaurants who have literally spit in the food because of no tip.
That alone makes me not want to tip because the threat of that makes the tip undeserved, but the threat of that forces me to tip regardless.
> I know of people and restaurants who have literally spit in the food because of no tip.
Since you typically pay (and tip) at the end of the meal, how do these people know?
If I honestly thought there was a risk at a restaurant that someone would do this for any reason whatsoever, I'd absolutely never go to that restaurant.
Last I was in France, it was so refreshing to simply pay for the meal & service all together, and neither bother with a tip nor feel pressured to give one.
The Bahamas Atlantis Resort has it figured out. They charge you a fixed 15% gratuity you cannot avoid, and you can tip on top of that. This way a breakfast ham/egg croissant + jerk chicken sandwich + 2 coffees will set you back $45.
I found that in Miami they add 18% by default in the check. When I was there earlier this year, I did not realize it the first day and ended up paying 20% tip on top of that.
1. The server shoves the handheld tiny device in your face presenting with 3 options: 20%, 22%, and 25%. There is a small button at the bottom to select "Other" amount. You click that because you want to pay maybe 15%. But then it brings up an input box for the precise amount of the tip you want to pay. Unless you already know this amount, your options are awkwardly calculate the tip while the server is impatiently watching you or suck it up and go back to the default tipping menu. In many of these restaurants the server brought the bill and asked for the payment at the same time so I had no time to pre-calculate the tip.
2. In almost all the restaurants, the device tacked on the tip on post sales tax amount. In Texas the sales tax is 8.25%. So a 20% tip ends up being roughly 22%.
Sure, the few extra dollars don't make a dent in my finances. It is not the spending that hurts, it is the feeling of getting manipulated in real time that kills me.