Too many people adopted dogs during the pandemic because they were stuck home and needed some distraction as well as realized they had the time to devote.
Now that things are returning to normal, people don't want to spend the time.
> Maisie howled at any stimulus. She paced all night and pounced on anyone who came to the house.
Your dog is some combination of bored and scared. You don't need a vet, you need a dog trainer.
Dogs can be incredible amounts of work. I probably spend on average 2 hours a day on dog work of some kind and I have a dog walker come twice daily too (30min/2x day).
There are times when I'll admit it's not convenient. The last vacation I took had an extra ~3k tacked on for a house/pet sitter, but, I (knowingly) made a commitment when I adopted/purchased them.
The whole concept of drugging your dog just seems, frankly, abusive to me.
People need to do far more research when adopting or buying dogs. Animal rescues are commonly not honest about a dogs history (to make it easier to adopt the dog out) and the vast majority of breeders are not honest about the amount of work required with particular breeds and particular dogs.
I could tell that you knew this as well! I mostly just wanted to explicitly state it because of how strongly I feel about it, and I honestly held back how strongly I wanted to state it as well.
My much more raw take is that barring abuse or specific training to be aggressive, most dogs are actually predisposed to try to please people because they've literally been bred for hundreds of generations to be friendly and value human companionship. If a dog is acting out, it's much more likely to be fixable by changing human behavior because it's easier to communicate with them. If a dog acts out, it's not because of some deep, inscrutable reason; they act out because some need of theirs isn't being met, and their needs are straightforward enough that a good trainer will be able to see their environment and tell the humans involved what they need to do to rectify it.
Virtually none of them have innate drives to attack or harm humans, but for some, they can definitely enter what I will call almost akin to a fugue state where they revert to much more primal instincts.
For example the greyhounds are like this if you wake them from sleep. My first greyhound slept on my bed precisely once -- when I kicked her in my sleep in the middle of the night I got woken up by a dog clamped on my leg, fortunately through a comforter so there was no real damage. Within seconds she was incredibly apologetic. But, it's a known thing with that breed.
Dogs absolutely want to please their owners. Most of the training I've done as a dog owner is around communication to let my dog know A) what I want and B) that they did it right. For the vast majority of dog owners, if they are just careful with selection, it's not a huge amount of work to train yourself and your dog.
Yeah, I think the larger point is like you said, the main exception to just doing what they can to please humans is "primal" instincts, which aren't something that can be changed with some basic training. It's _far_ easier for people to just be taught how not to trigger those, which very often tends to be following some simple rules.
One of my cats gets very feisty when she's playful, and she often will bite my hand somewhat hard once she gets into the "chase" mode (which sometimes can happen from her just noticing my hands move a lot when I type or something). She's extraordinarily sweet otherwise though, to the point where I can literally pick her up and hand her to people the first time she meets them, and she happily purrs and will continue to seek out their attention after they put her down, and I've continued learning in the few years since I adopted her how to avoid triggering her instincts like that (and to make sure to give her ample play time where she can direct her aggression towards toys instead of my hands). I think a lot of people would just see a cat who bites sometimes and assume she's unfriendly or mean, but she's so sweet the vast majority of the time that I know her temporary "reversion" to her primal instincts doesn't indicate any actual malice.
As somebody who has put a dog through training, that tracks with my experience. As I recall, the first lesson did not involve our dogs at all. It was just a long list of all the ways we had failed our dogs. Everything after that was addressing those issues.
I walk my Golden Retriever an hour a day. I also put her into doggy day care for a day or two every week so she can have the enjoyment of non stop chaos for 8 hours. She comes almost everywhere with us.
I'm never worried leaving her on my leather couch unattended for a day. She knows she'll get a walk or run.
But you're totally right about picking the right breed. I see people picking collies and heeler breeds and I just feel sad for the dog because they arn't going to get the levels of work they really need from a household family.
> I see people picking collies and heeler breeds and I just feel sad for the dog because they arn't going to get the levels of work they really need from a household family.
It's really hard when it's someone I know and they either don't ask my advice or they ignore it. I know in 6 months or a year they will come ask and I'll have to explain to them how that aussie line was bred on a working cattle ranch where it would spend 6 days a week, 8-12 hours a day, herding cattle.
>I see people picking collies and heeler breeds and I just feel sad for the dog because they arn't going to get the levels of work they really need from a household family.
I babysit my friends Red Heeler when he goes on vacation. And he is a bundle of energy, they need a lot of stimulation and exercise.
This was a lifetime cat owner trying to raise a dog during the pandemic. Perfect storm of bad husbandry for a dog. I’m not surprised this is the outcome.
> The whole concept of drugging your dog just seems, frankly, abusive to me.
Perhaps inadvertently in many cases, but it’s incontrovertible to me.
Dogs are sentient creatures and plying any animal with drugs to get a desired result, especially if it’s completely under your control, denies them the moral and ethical alternatives they likely need to live functional and healthy lives.
I’m not criticizing dog owners who do this, though; I think the vast majority of them are in over their heads, made a huge mistake, and likely don’t have the resources to do better. It’s awful for everyone involved. I wish more people understood that dogs are complex creatures with diverse wants and needs, requiring a lot of thought and care on a frequent and ongoing basis.
>I wish more people understood that dogs are complex creatures with diverse wants and needs, requiring a lot thought and care on a frequent and ongoing basis.
I wish society in general actually taught people this before they got the idea of adopting a dog. Instead, society and the media pushes the idea on people and make it look like it's easy and fun.
Dogs do require work and attention and care, but there’s nothing in the article to suggest that the owner wasn’t giving the dog the exercise or attention it needed. A vet behaviorist, like Dr. Pike referenced in the article, is only going to prescribe medication for clinically significant abnormal behavior.
Medicating dogs to ease their stress or pain (physical and mental) is not abusive when practiced appropriately but should be considered compassionate. No one balks at the idea of giving melarsomine to a dog with heartworm and appropriate treatment for diagnosed behavioral issues should be the same.
It is possible it’s overprescribed though I don’t have info on that.
Dogs are super empathetic and often reflect the emotional state of their owners. So in addition to lack of exercise, etc, their anxiety and strange behaviors are often a way to react to or support you.
I’ve had many Labrador Retrievers in my life, as hunting dogs in my youth and now as family pets. They’ve always been calm, and a big part of that is that we’re calm people.
Every dog is different, but their loyalty and empathy serve us in many ways. They are great at telling us things, if only we would listen.
My dogs (especially the Parson I raised from a puppy) knows when I'm stressed and is super affectionate and can also have negative behaviors sometimes too.
70% (approx) of dog behavior problems are solvable via sufficient exercise. In the dog's opinion, not yours. Get a chuckit and a kong soft frisbee and run the shit out of your dog.
Think very hard before you get eg a cattledog, border collie, jack russel, or even a corgi, etc.
Working dogs especially require work to feel satisfied. I grew up around red heelers (bred to herd cattle by nipping at their legs, which ours never did) and that instinct easily translates to herding kids or people. They are very bite happy on legs and take serious training and socializing before they are safe to introduce people to. One dog in particular bit most of the people who met him in general. My wife is the only girlfriend of mine he immediately loved when I introduced her. The one before that he was leery of, and the one before that he outright bit. Both ended up cheating on me, while my wife and I have been married 11 years...so honestly he seemed like a good judge of character.
1000% this. Another 10 or 20% would be helped with proper use of crate training (the dogs are scared and the crate can be their safe space).
I actually have a Parson Russell Terrier (AKC breed standard name for a jack) and while mine is easily in the lower half of energy, it was only because of some very extensive pre-purchase work to find a dog with the correct temperament.
Found the responsible dog owner. Even small dogs require large investment. And to forget this, adding another dog doesn’t “tire the other out”. Two dogs is >2x the work of one.
They are great when they’re great. Greatness requires investment.
Thanks. I try very hard to be a responsible dog owner.
I only have 3 small dogs now (all under 14, 20 and 23lbs about) because I realize as I age (I'm 39) and considering that a dog might live 15 years, I don't want to deal with a geriatric 60 lb dog at 50 years old. I've dealt with immobile dogs,t with a 40-50lb greyhound (twice) and a 18lb terrier mix and it's a world of a difference.
> adding another dog doesn’t “tire the other out”
No, it doesn't, but they definitely do provide each other companionship for each other especially when you're not there.
> Two dogs is >2x the work of one
Personally, 2 dogs was about 2.5x the work but adding the 3rd dog only brought things up to an even 3x the work.
I disagree with this. I’ve had 2 dogs the past 20 years (2 sets of 2 dogs) and they absolutely tire each other out. The chase squirrels together, they chase each other around the house, they play fight. Dogs are used to being part of a pack, I personally think having 2 dogs gives them a more meaningful (doggy) life
You missed the part where you indicated they have the opportunity to chase squirrels. Dogs on Prozac aren’t going out to chase squirrels and expel their energy.
>People need to do far more research when adopting or buying dogs.
It would help a lot it society didn't encourage people to adopt dogs, and normalize dog ownership. It's really something that only rich people should do, so they can show off their disposable income (e.g., 3k for a house/pet sitter to go on vacation, hiring a dog walker, etc.). Regular people have no business owning an animal that requires this much care and attention, when they're already busy with their work, social lives, their own kids, etc.
I don't agree that you need to be rich to properly care for a dog, but you do need to understand and accept the commitment it takes.
One thing that can help a lot is remote work. That means you can avoid expenses like hiring a dog walker or sitter because you can be there with your dog. As for the vacation part, my wife and I solve that by simply taking our dogs with us. That does restrict what you can do; we personally don't care because we don't take the kind of vacations where having dogs along would be a problem.
Other people handle that situation (vacation) differently.
They may board with friends. They may board the dog in a facility. There are many ways to reasonably handle that situation that doesn't cost 1000s of dollars but keep in mind I have three dogs (3x the cost), had a relatively long trip (3 weeks), was traveling internationally (needed someone who I had impeccable trust in), and I am determined to disrupt their lives as little as possible (so no boarding).
We should totally encourage people to adopt dogs (adopt, not buy)! We should just be totally honest about what they are getting into and what resources are required (mostly your time) to do it properly.
> It's really something that only rich people should do
Not at all, you don't have to do it how I did it, I am fortunate enough to be able to choose a path which optimizes my time (hiring a walker) and their lives (hiring a home pet sitter).
> so they can show off their disposable income (e.g., 3k for a house/pet sitter to go on vacation, hiring a dog walker, etc.)
Honestly, that statement just offends me for reasons I can't articulate at the moment. That so misses the mark of why I have dogs and why I wrote that comment.
I think it was 125/night for someone to spend 12-16 hours a day in the house with my dogs. Technically under minimum wage (15/hour in NJ!) for full time care of all 3 dogs.
I think I paid reasonably but generously, I didn't have any interest in hiring the cheapest possible person.
Edited to add that I just checked wag (pet walking/sitting app) to see how much I "over" paid.
Wag charges 40-60/night depending on location; I assume North NJ and wanting a highly verified and qualified sitter and 3 weeks and me generally being absurdly picky) would put me easily at or above that range, plus, they charge 25/night/extra pet so I'm at 110/night with Wag.
Not that I think the average Wag walker is bad, but, I'm much happier paying a bit more for someone I know and trust.
We brought home a very anxious few month old rescue puppy and she wouldn't do anything but hide in her crate and she would shake whenever anybody came near her. After a couple of months of not really improving, the vet put her on Prozac and it worked amazingly. After a week or so she was making massive strides. About six months later, we weened her off the Prozac and she was comfortable enough with us that she didn't seem to need it any longer. She's now six, and still an anxious dog overall, but she loves us, is always happy to see us, and lives a pretty good life. Would she have come around even without the Prozac? Maybe, but I'm happy it seemed to have reduced her terror while she came to trust us.
I like my dog, but I don't plan to ever own another. Besides money, she costs a lot in time and convenience. Food and water. Walk her morning (feel bad if I sleep in too long), noon, and night. Brush her and vacuum often (sheds a lot). Clip her nails frequently (which is a struggle), or her feet will hurt. Give her a bath every couple weeks. Wash her bed. Take her to the vet. Give her monthly prescription meds for fleas/ticks/heartworm. Clean up when she gets sick. If we want to leave home for more than like 8 hours, we have to take her along (if dogs are allowed where we're going) or get a sitter. It's all manageable, but personally, I would just rather not have the responsibility, even for a dog that's not high maintenance. And I'm not sure I like the "dog culture" I live in where the outside of my building always smells like pee, there's pee in the elevator every morning, dog shit appears in random places, people let their big dogs play off leash, dogs left alone spend all day barking, etc...
Yeah... maybe I'm lucky to be from an area where dog ownership is more common and the responsibilities more well known, but it's shocking how many Brooklyn yuppies I know who learned this lesson the hard way.
This right here is why I'm a cat person. Cats are not as playful as dogs, but they are also so much less work. We have two, and as long as their automatic feeder is full and they have plenty of water, we can leave them unattended for days at a time no problem. They also require stimulation, but much less than a dog.
We don’t really know how SSRIs work - or if at all (at least not as intended) - yet they’re handed out indiscriminately for “treating” anything that isn’t “normal”, accepted, or desired behaviour.
These drugs have life-altering - and often permanent - side effects to the extent they’re a case of the cure being worse than the disease for any but the most severe and otherwise untreatable conditions and hence run against basic ethical standards in medicine (“Do no harm.” for one).
Feeding that type of drug to a poor dog, who can neither decide for themselves nor know what’s happening to them, takes a special kind of unethical.
On the other hand, it’s not like the standards around SSRIs for treating humans are ethical either.
Their side effects often are downplayed or kept from patients, who will take those drugs at their doctor’s recommendation, not knowing the full extent of what they have subscribed to.
For years, companies and doctors downplayed the side effects but I'm not sure that's true anymore.
Also, most people who use SSRIs do not experience permanent side effects once they get off them (though some do). The thing about SSRIs is that, at the end of the day, the data is based on whether patients like them and they largely do.
I'm also not sure I buy your argument about dogs. Dogs can't consent to any medical intervention and they certainly can't consent to being neutered and euthanized, both of which are widely practiced. SSRIs seem less egregious than that.
Not that I disagree with what you're saying. But pets don't really get to decide for themselves with really anything owners give them.
We all have stories of having to give our dogs some form of medication that they don't want to eat and having to sneak it into their own food.
If my dog indicates they doesn't want to eat the flea or worm medication that's fine, but I am going to make sure they get it because I know they're better off with it so they don't itch themselves raw.
>The prior owners had decided to kill it. On the advice of the dog's psychiatrist.
that's the kind of story that makes it upsetting that 'dog psychiatrist' is a title, a real psychiatrist would never eventually resort to 'Well, how about euthanasia?'
This is where I started scratching my metaphorical head. This is what makes me think the reason for high Prozac prescriptions is that there exist such a thing as a "dog's psychiatrist" as a profession.
tangental story, but my dog had chronic ear infections since we adopted her as a puppy. my vet at the time told use she had a gluten allergy and to put her on grain-free foods. years later, i'm seeing another vet and he says that's all non-sense and grain-free diets actually cause heart issues in dogs.
he tells me much of the pet care industry immitates the human care industry, e.g., fad diets and medical trends. i can't help but notice this whenever i go to a pet store now. the labeling on foods and the push for "CBD for pets" - can't help but feel the pet care companies co-opt marketing strategies for people
Because people are buying dogs way too big for their homes and then they don't take them for walks or exercise them. I live a few doors down from a doctor and he drives a $100k+ Mercedes, but I've never once seen anyone in his family take their German shepherd for a walk. Pets are just accessories for some people. Then when their dogs get bored and start chewing things up, digging holes, or generally doing dog things people decide to just drug their animal and tranquilize them rather than give them more exercise or find a better outlet for their animal's energy.
Dogs are even more poorly equipped for the sudden shift in living conditions over the last century than we are. Dogs are meant to be a little bit wild, roam around and enjoy being a dog every so often. Not being able to ever do that is taxing.
Yes, dogs require training, but it doesn't fix the root issue, which is not living up to their intended purpose. To serve, protect, and piss on everything another dog has pissed on.
After suddenly losing our previous dog (adopted as a 4 mo old pup) at 4 years old (septic shock), we adopted a rescue (about 1½ yo now) from the Dominican Republic. After several months of trying to calm him with the various ways we know through decades of rescue dog ownership and multiple training sessions with different dogs, we currently have him on prozac. He arrived in Canada on a flight with ~90 other rescue animals and went to a foster house that already had 3 other dogs (one of whom passed not long after his arrival, AIUI).
We do not want him to be on prozac long-term. But our vet has suggested that if he learns what it is to be calm, we should eventually wean him off and he should be in a better place as he understands that this house is safe for him. The behaviours we worry about are not the barking, but the shaking in terror.
We know he will always be a somewhat more nervous dog than the last one (the last one was a 90 pound king shepherd cross; this one is a 23 pound terrier mix known as a potcake or coconut hound). But he’ll get there.
I'm the owner of a 7 year old anxious dog since she was a puppy. We got her in San Francisco while living in apartments. We then moved to a rural home in Oregon and then to a house in LA. Her anxiety manifested differently in each area, which has led me to believe she may not be "anxious" so much as a dog reacting to her environment. I'd say where we are now is her least anxious state, and she gets more mental stimulation here than anywhere we've been. This is a pretty suburban area, so she gets to sit in our front window to watch people and animals walking by all the time. Sometimes she barks at them, but she seems happy and energetic when she does it (a behaviorist would call it barrier frustration, though).
I don't know what the lesson is, exactly. Every dog is different. If I get another dog, though, I will make sure they have an environment with constant opportunities for mental stimulation even if we aren't home, which will probably means an accessible window with a good view.
One of our dogs came from a previous human who, we can infer, did not treat her very nicely. She was on Prozac when she arrived, but we have since weaned her off. To this day, when someone -- particularly a woman, but even another dog or a cat -- threatens or appears to threaten her bed or her food, there can be much growling, baying, and baring of teeth. For this reason we have learned to prevent my wife and the dog from occupying the human bed at the same time, and she has become quite obedient of the command "get off the bed".
Other than that, she is doing well, a loved and happy dog. We are grateful for the opportunity to show this creature what it's like to be loved by humans over the long term. We hope to get her in front of a behaviorist to figure out how we can ease her anxiety further -- without drugs.
CBD gummies work fine for dog anxiety. I also have friends that swear by low dose ∆9 gummies turning their "hospice" dogs into puppies again, at least giving them some quality of life in the last days/weeks/months.
I'm not actually defending getting an animal high, but my mention was regarding dogs that are already dying.
That said, I tried to research the recycling effect mentioned in the article and was disappointed to see first that there were no actual links to the listed sources, and second, upon searching for the articles I found that they are all blog posts. I couldn't find a single peer reviewed paper on the effect that is supposed to be so dangerous.
Dogs need, before anything, exercise and depending on the breed they might need more/other stimulus. Walking your dog 2 hours a day (one hour in the morning the other in the afternoon/evening) would basically be a minimum requirement. After exercise they need disciple and affection (that order). If you can't do this, don't get a dog, it's not a toy, it's a member of your family that needs proper care. Drugging a dog up to fit your lifestyle is not an adequate response for your lack of responsibility.
In my experience (wife is a breeder of shepherds), the ones cause it.
I’ve literally seen a puppy come back that was “scared of its own shadow”, that I’ve taken out to loud chaotic environments with out a reaction from the dog.
I’ve seen a perfectly stable pup go out, and become fearful of the world.
The wife no longer sells pups to service dog homes where the potential owner has anxiety issues, shepherds are very emotionally sensitive and pick up on the owners anxiety, it imprint it.
I’ve also seen dogs that weren’t the most stable goto solid homes and come out rock solid.
People love spending money on healthcare. They'll spend a boatload on themselves and if they can't find a reason to do that they'll spend a boatload on their pets.
I mean that sounds crazy but look at the amount of money spent on pets per year - and then look at the trend line.
First US state to allow pre-tax dollars towards pet insurance will be in 10 years. That's my prediction.
I’ve got a 16-yo dog on prozac cause he’s recently (past year) became extremely anxious anytime we leave the house, even just going into the yard, he barks and whines, scratches at the door, and has accidents. I think it has helped but honestly hard to say. If there’s a better alternative I’d love to try it. We take him on plenty of walks (for his age) and attention when we’re home.
Prozac as a treatment for isolation distress or separation anxiety is much more effective when coupled with desensitization training and possibly counter conditioning. If you’re not already practicing that it may help.
I am not an expert, but a 16 year old dog falls straight into the 'teaching an old dog new tricks'. I would totally drug up the dog to ensure it lives the (short) rest of its life peacefully and pleasantly. And I don't even like dogs.
A very nervous street dog decided to move in with me a year ago. For a few month I gave her a couple of drops CBD weed oil in her food. It did help a little, I think. She slept more. I don't give that anymore after finished the bottle. She is much more calm now. It could be because CBD got her to relax and bring the stress level down or it could be that it because she has adjusted to her new environment. Worth a try. It wont harm
I was advised to give a triple dose the first time to trigger some respirators. There are plenty of guides online on how to calculate the proper dose based on body weight of the dog and the strength of the CBD oil.
Unfortunately in the vast majority of cases another dog is ineffective for the treatment of separation anxiety. It does sometimes help but they usually want a human or a specific human.
Too many people adopted dogs during the pandemic because they were stuck home and needed some distraction as well as realized they had the time to devote.
Now that things are returning to normal, people don't want to spend the time.
> Maisie howled at any stimulus. She paced all night and pounced on anyone who came to the house.
Your dog is some combination of bored and scared. You don't need a vet, you need a dog trainer.
Dogs can be incredible amounts of work. I probably spend on average 2 hours a day on dog work of some kind and I have a dog walker come twice daily too (30min/2x day).
There are times when I'll admit it's not convenient. The last vacation I took had an extra ~3k tacked on for a house/pet sitter, but, I (knowingly) made a commitment when I adopted/purchased them.
The whole concept of drugging your dog just seems, frankly, abusive to me.
People need to do far more research when adopting or buying dogs. Animal rescues are commonly not honest about a dogs history (to make it easier to adopt the dog out) and the vast majority of breeders are not honest about the amount of work required with particular breeds and particular dogs.