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Ask HN: How much of unlimited PTO do you use?
47 points by taubek on June 3, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 96 comments
If you have unlimited PTO how much of it do you actually use? I can see how unlimited PTO can work if you are working on projects - you take time off between projects. But what if you are a team lead or if your job is infrastructure related? Do you have a team mate that covers for you and then you cover some other person when needed?



It's all bullshit. When my company switched to "flexible time off", they also instated an annual goal for number of hours billed, and surprise surprise: to hit the annual goal, you have to take basically ZERO time off. Previously we earned 2 to 4 weeks depending on seniority. Now it's zero. You cannot take time off and also hit your goal unless you work tons of overtime. It's all fucking bullshit and I'd be surprised if it's legal.

When in doubt, if some corporate executive wants to do it, 99% of the time it's to absolutely fuck you over as hard as possible. Corporate leadership at most companies in the U.S. are parasitic insects existing solely to suck the blood out of the company until their next spawning cycle when they sprout wings and fly off looking for another victim. Never doubt it.


> When my company switched to "flexible time off", they also instated an annual goal for number of hours billed, and surprise surprise: to hit the annual goal, you have to take basically ZERO time off. Previously we earned 2 to 4 weeks depending on seniority. Now it's zero.

Does your company have any offices in California? Is this policy applied to those offices in California? If the answer to both questions is "yes", then have a coworker in California talk to a labor lawyer to see if California might consider this PTO policy wage theft.

(For context: California considers PTO to be part of your wage, and considers companies that attempt to weasel out of paying PTO to be engaging in wage theft. Based on what I've read California courts give "non-accrual"/"unlimited"/"flexible"/"whatever-they-are-called-these-days" PTO schemes _extra_ scrutiny, because those things hide all sorts of ways to deny workers the wages that they're owed.)


What if you miss your goal? I mean if you wouldn’t lose your job just take 6-8 weeks to compensate for the loss of bonus


A perfect recipe for burn-out. What is the burn-out rate in USA compared to Western EU?


> Previously we earned 2 to 4 weeks depending on seniority.

Yikes. You really were expected to do 1900h+ per year previously and the current situation got even worse?


2 to 4 weeks isn’t normal?


2 to 4 weeks is not normal.


2-4 weeks seems pretty normal


I have 7 weeks plus bank holidays… but I am not in the US (mandatory days… you are obligated to take them all)


Sounds like a nice balance! You've got a great job :)


It sounds more like a nice country to me.


This! Vive la France!


What if someone isn’t a good worker? What is the procedure for getting rid of them?


You fire them… it’s harder than in other places put you can still do it. You just need a valid reason! I had at least a couple of colleagues other the years being fired! At least employees are not victims of the employer every whim! And this is a good thing!


Cool, thank you!


Is this just in your company or statutory somewhere?


Country law state 30 days for my kind of contract… but since I work more than your normal contract (in France the work week is 35h a week whilst I work 37h) I get extra 5 days. On top of that I have 5 days for sick children and unlimited sick days.


The only company that I felt actually stood by this was linkedin. On top of their whole week off for July 4th and Christmas I actually observed people taking 1-1.5 weeks each quarter on average as part of flex time. Plus with "in days" (1 Friday each month to do absolutely anything including staying home) it was almost 8 weeks of leave each year. Not sure if things are the same now (this was until 2 years ago in the US). I doubt any other company was this generous.


If you live in the US, it's absolutely legal, and even if it's not then it doesn't matter because you live in the US under a dictator (your boss).


Yeah, you nailed with the word choice here.

Dictator needs to be a ruler, that also you cannot get rid of. In most of the us you can ditch your boss tonight.

It looks like you want a real dictator to “protect” you from possible poor decisions you can make. Which is fine, just don’t get me and others like me involved please.


As an American working in Germany after working in San Francisco for a company with unlimited time off (Uber), I prefer Germany without even thinking about it.

The US labor system is so insanely broken I don't even know where to begin.


It is fine to have opinions. I may even agree with your opinion. Pushing it to others is what i am against.


What do you mean? That's the entire point of talking about things.


I may agree that 25 days off at a certain job is better for that individual, or even me. What i am against is creating creating government rules that impose such schemes into everyone without their consent.


Without the government imposing such schemes you end up where the USA is right now: a few skilled jobs are granted the extreme privilege of time off, for the rest you grant nothing. Are they peasants in your eyes?

The government should be responsible to provide a minimum of quality of life to its citizens, to give away this power is to relinquish one of the main benefits of being a State.

End of child labour and slavery was imposed onto a lot of societies without everyone's consent, it doesn't mean it is wrong for the government to do so.

Imposing a minimum of paid time off to humans, allowing humans to have time off from work to actually enjoy being humans, is to determine a minimum baseline of quality of life to all of your citizens. You seem to rather prefer to only allow that to a privileged class, because that's what happens in reality when the government does not impose a modicum of morality into the system.


> a few skilled jobs are granted the extreme privilege of time off, for the rest you grant nothing. Are they peasants in your eyes?

No not at all. I believe lower skilled workers are on this position due to the policies we have had for some time now, which most of them actually support. I respect all workers that contribute honestly.


LOL what bollocks. Do you even know what governments are for?

Hint: Not to protect the handful of super rich billionaire type owners. I know, I know, unique concept as an American...


You think in your country the government serves you. That is a very naive way of thinking. Why would they love you so much, is it because you bother to show up at a polling station once in a couple of years, or is there some other source of attraction?


No other source. Getting elected is kind of important for a democratically elected leadership though.

Not every country has 'SuperPACs' and other corrupt ways of getting elected by throwing enough corporate millions and billions one way though.


Keep dreaming buddy. You may love your ruler, but that is a one way relationship. Your ruler doesn’t even think about you.


Here you are pushing your opinion on opinions on us.


No, i am not the one advocating for mandatory schemes, which some people push into the rest, usually through government. By default no such schemes exist, so i am not the one that meddles in others business. If you want to get involved you are free to do so.


> No, i am not the one advocating for mandatory schemes, which some people push into the rest, usually through government.

I can conclude then that you are also not an advocate against child labour, as that is a mandatory scheme pushed through government. You are also not an advocate against monopolies, since those are regulated through the government.


Do you consider the above argument as lost and and want to try your luck in a new argument?


No, I just needed to reiterate it so perhaps you can get a glimpse of your own stupidity.


It so sad it's almost funny.

Have you heard the one about "our open office plan is meant to enhance the opportunities for collaboration?"


What an incredibly sad question. People need breaks and rest. If you don’t get it for long enough, you will burn out. If your company isn’t taking your need to rest seriously, you should find a new job.

Unlimited PTO is mostly a scam. PTO had a real monetary value as part of a compensation package. Many companies will pay it out in cash when you leave. If PTO is “unlimited “ it basically means the company has decided to not compensate you with PTO. Since no one is “owed” PTO everyone starts treating it like something they don’t deserve and the company develops a culture of not taking time off.

Of course a company’s leadership could still strongly encourage time off in an “unlimited “ situation, but the easiest way to do that is to actually compensate people with PTO!


> Many companies will pay it out in cash when you leave.

Depends where you are located.

https://gusto.com/resources/articles/hr/termination/pay-accr...


I live in the UK with an unlimited PTO system. My partner works for a local company, so I ballpark try and match hers, but take an extra week or two per year depending. It's somewhere in the region of 40 days per year, plus the "holiday" closures.

I'm a lead _and_ I manage infrastructure. If you're a lead and your team can't handle you being out for a week then you need to spend more time leading and less time doing. Being out for longer requires active planning.


Is that even legal in the UK? As far as I knew, UK has a statutory 20 days off for all salaried workers (28 with holidays). Is it 20 days off plus unlimited? Which isn't quite the same.


Not sure how it would work in the UK, but you can do it in a country like Denmark, but you'd need to split the time in two. You're legally required to provide 25 days, and for that to make sense financially, the company needs to keep track of the first 25 days as these are "earned" at a rate of 2,3 per month (something like that). Beyond the 25 days, you can grants as many "ferie-fri" (vacation/time-off)-days as you like. Technically the company can tell you when to use those, normally between Christmas and New Years, but they can waive that right and let employees decide for themselves. If you don't use your time, you can lose it, after a 1.5 years for the first 25 and a year for the rest.

So I don't think it would be an issue in the UK either, but the company needs to do the accounting right.


The UK actually has a statutory 5.6 weeks - which is 28 days - for all full time employees. Most companies will split that as 20 days flexible leave plus 8 public holidays, but it's not a requirement.

Many companies offer better than that as an additional benefit. For example, I currently get 24 days + 9 public holidays (Scotland) for a total of 33 days. I think I get an additional day after I've been with the company 4 years.


My contract says 20+bank holidays, but our internal policy says unlimited subject to local minimum requirements.

It's a small company, so it's an honour system. I've taken far more than my contractual minimum every year I've worked here, so having to get backpay or carry over hasn't come up just yet.


If a company really believed in Unlimited PTO they would specify and require a minimum amount of PTO for all workers. That way everyone is able to take PTO without it feeling like they're shirking any duties. People in leadership positions should also visibly be taking PTO and setting an example for their workers.


I know of several smaller companies that do this. It's a great policy IMO.


Beyond the benefits of actually proving you give a damn about work-life balance, I suspect mandatory minimums of 4+ weeks of PTO force organizations to structure/hire/work in a way that makes everything more robust since you need to have people who can cover for others when they take time off or sick leave or just plain leave.

You can't silo information if the silo can go off grid for a month or more.

You can't have a dependency on a single individual without predictable and avoidable consequences, and what might have taken years to show up instead is obviously going to be you can see coming within the year.

Your SMEs and high performers won't feel the pressure to avoid taking time off, and they'll need to improve documentation and knowledge/skill sharing. Managers will have incentives to support that as well.


I'm not sure where you live, but 25 to 30 days seem to be the ballpark for a healthy life.

Here in Germany the minimal number of vacation days that have to be granted (by law) is 20 days, but it's rare to have that few days in knowledge worker positions.

Unless you're the CTO you should not really worry too much about a vacation replacement, isn't this your bosses responsibility?

Btw don't burn out by not taking vacation. Life is short. You will regret this when you get older.


I have 23 days plus 15 days for sick kids/family member and “unlimited” short term sick leave for myself. All at a telco in the US.

I turned down 2 other jobs that had unlimited PTO where you could really only get 2-3 weeks max.


Do your number include sick leave? I’d assume that was a different PTO bucket.


Some context for Germany: Before the probation period ends (usually 6 months), a company can fire you without any reason on 2 weeks notice. After that, it's very hard to fire someone for being sick.

Now to your question: 30 days is the norm for knowledge workers. Days off, including: when you are sick, when your kid is sick so you have to take care of them, special occasions such as death of a close relative, marriage, relocation) don't get counted on these 30 days at all.


Is that 30 days per year?

That’s impressively generous.

It’s 10 (accumulating to 20) here in New Zealand and bereavement is an additional few days - the amount depends on your relationship to the deceased. All the above is paid at your usual rate.


I think you have misunderstood.

It's 30 days paid holiday per year. The legal minimum is 20-something is most EU countries, but professional jobs tend to have 25-35, depending on the country.

Sick leave is completely independent of that. If you're sick you don't work. If there's any doubt, you get a signed note from a doctor. If the sickness lasts a long time there are eventually other procedures, and after long enough you can lose your job if there's really no reasonable alternative.


The best part: if you're sick on vacation, you get those vacation days back as they're converted into sick days.


> I think you have misunderstood.

I had, and the comment was very clear.


Though taking care of a sick kid is an unpaid leave. But your health insurance compensates that to a certain degree. Usually up to €110 per day.


You get 30 „child sick days“ per child

https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/themen/praeventi...


Sounds similar to Finnish system, for the sake of further comparison across countries.


Sick days are not vacation, you get to stay home for however long your doctor put on your sick note and health insurance will reimburse your employer.


A previous job had unlimited "dto" (discretionary time off). Before I accepted the job I told my manager I was currently getting 5 weeks PTO and asked if that would be inline with the expectation. He told me he saw no issue with me taking that much, or even somewhat more. Sure enough he never turned down a time off request. The closest he even came was making sure that someone was available to be on call thanksgiving and Christmas weeks.

It's not always bullshit. I actually kind of regret leaving that job for more money and the unlimited time off was a big factor. I went to only having a few weeks, accrued over the year and ended up having some major family issues that lead to me budgeting my PTO. I could've always taken unpaid time but I would never have even thought twice about taking the time with the DTO.


The company I work for instituted unlimited PTO recently.

It’s annoying, because under the previous system if I worked a weekend or public holiday, I’d get an extra concrete day to use. Now I don’t.

So by law in Ireland I have to take minimum 20 days PTO, and interestingly, there’s a little known rule that says I’ve to take 2 weeks off in a row as part of that.

Which I never twigged until recently when comparing the employee handbook to employment laws for fun. This rule is a blessing and a curse tbh.

This year so far I have taken about two actual days off, and I usually work on public holidays because I simply forget when they are.


At my current job the unlimited PTO has afforded me the ability to take more care of my health compared to previous jobs (with or without unlimited PTO). I’m much more inclined to take sick days and/or mental health days when I need them.

I also have to take a day off almost monthly for medical treatments. At a standard US job, I’d probably end up with 3 days of total annual PTO leftover, and I’d probably have to save the “sick days” (which don’t stick around too easily with my health issues).

At my current job, it only works because they’re not preventing us from taking the time (for now).


> But what if you are a team lead or if your job is infrastructure related? Do you have a team mate that covers for you and then you cover some other person when needed?

It shouldn't be on you to organize cover. At any level, the level above should have considered this. You can't be a single point of failure - well except for small startups perhaps.

And agree with the other comments that unlimited PTO is a way to reduce PTO or the liability to have to pay for your PTO should you leave / get sacked.


Right! "Cover" sounds ridiculous for someone from a country with guaranteed vacation by law.. also strange from the perspective of the company: What would happen if you are sick, or worse, truck rate? That is unplanned and must be handleable with not everything breaking apart... vacation is planned and much easier.


I've worked for four different companies that had PTO. At each one, I would basically take somewhere around 4-6 weeks off per year, depending. As a Director-level, I encourage everyone to take vacation whenever they need/want to, and as long as their work is getting done and they have someone to cover for them while they're out, I couldn't care less how much time they take off. I'm not incentivized to keep you from taking time off, so it's weird to me that anyone is difficult about this at all.

I've never told anyone they can't take time off (even with limited PTO), and I don't intend to start now.


Having unlimited PTO and coping with absences at work are orthogonal problems.

When you are going on vacation you can pick somebody in your team as the to-go person and communicate that fact to them, to your manager, and add that information to your automated "out of the office" emails.


Peak HN is using an overly smart-sounding word like "orthogonal" instead of the clearly more appropriate "independent"


Thank you for the kindly-worded editorial. It is a meaningful contribution to the topic at hand.


I think you meant "separate".


> But what if you are a team lead or if your job is infrastructure related? Do you have a team mate that covers for you and then you cover some other person when needed?

If management doesn't have the people to handle their employees taking the leave that they're entitled to, __that's not your problem__. Your responsibility is to announce your planned absence in advance, write and distribute any hand-off materials required as your planned absence approaches, and then take your leave at the announced time.


I work for a company with unlimited PTO and it is a double-edged sword.

Before I joined one team member had less than 7 vacation days in a year, and she's working in a country with less than 10 public holidays a year.

It is _very_ easy not to get vacation because you can have all you want.

Now everyone in my department MUST take at least what's legal on the country they're based.


It varies. I don't really keep count of it. Usually a couple of vacations a year, plus whatever sick days I really don't feel like working, and the occasional long weekend. Also it's not unusual to start late or knock off early if not productive. Why waste time writing bugs I'll just have to waste time reverting tomorrow?

Most people in my company do about the same. Some take more, or structure it more compactly, a couple take less.

As for infrastructure and team leads, that comes down to people and process. With standard processes and checklists that everyone's familiar with (and as much automated as possible), and with people frequently communicating and reviewing and discussing stuff, then if someone's out other people should be able to step in and pick up what they would normally do. And with the right people, they will.


I left a job with a nice little packet of money for all of the accumulated overtime from a few years of hard work. Who would want to not get paid for their efforts? Do the people deciding you shouldn't, not expect to get paid for theirs? Where is the class action lawsuit on this?


Hey this might piss you off as Americans, but every US company I've worked for has respected my Australian minimum working conditions (2 weeks sick, 4 weeks holiday, etc etc) .. They will do what they can get away with, vote in someone with the balls to change your system.


My company went from PTO to FTO a few years ago... took away 5 days from us. I'd had 35 days. So ultimately, it averaged out to about 30 days per year.

Eventually, I convinced an my supervisor, who also lost her days, to restore at least two more days since it wasn't fair to lose days being at my company for over a decade... and then furthermore.. they brought back 2 or 3 more days they call "wellness days" in which you're supposed to take off to relax. And now it's back to nearly 35 days.

I tend to use only about a week or two at random for most of the year, taking a day here and there, and towards the summer or later months, I take week-long vacation days.


I work at a place that has unlimited PTO. I quite enjoy my job and have a nice amount of balance.

That said, I definitely still have the mindset of "I'll save all of my ammo for the final boss" which is dumb because it's unlimted.

Mostly I just figure I'll think about using it next week and then it gets easy to push back.

I suppose if I hated my job, or it wasn't fulfilling and needed the escape, it would be a different story mind you.

That said, I know there are some supposed to be some studies floating around that people with unlimited PTO tend to take less leave.


3 days a month usually. There’s usually a national holiday each month which gives one day off. Add a few more random Fridays.

We have on call rotation and plan our work really well, so it’s never been a problem when someone is on pvt or having an illness etc. there’s always someone who can cover and they know they can expect the same in return.

You should use your days off. It’s not our fault we live on such a beautiful amazing planet with awesome people to spend time with.


PTO here stands for Paid Time Off. You're welcome.


About 4-5 weeks a year. 'Unlimited' pto is a scummy practice and they wouldn't do it unless it was in their best interest. I have enough to deal with in life without losing sleep over irl dark patterns, so I take off when I feel like I need it. If they don't like that then they should go back to a set number.


Between 4 - 6 weeks. Pretty much the same as before I had unlimited PTO. Only now, I make a conscious effort to aim toward more rather than less since unlimited PTO is no longer factored into severance (if ever applicable), so why waste it. I pull more than my fair share, when I need a break, I take a break.


a minimum of 2 weeks every quarter.

longer if changing employers, moving, or building interesting things.

it’s ok to perform mission critical roles for a business.

it’s not ok to let a business abuse your health by taking a hard dependency on your 24/7/365 availability.

just like with software systems: redundancy and failover. not easy. not optional.


I use about 3-4 weeks.

But yeah the reality is you probably don’t want to be an outlier on either extreme. I've been nagged by my boss to take more vacation as I haven’t taken enough yet. Rarely I’ve been directly nagged about taking too much, but I don’t want to look like a slacker to my team.


My job has a hybrid approach. We get a certain number of weeks guaranteed. If you want to take more you can, it just has to be approved and mainly the thing is it can’t affect your main project deadlines


"Unlimited Holiday/PTO/Whatever" is a wolf in sheep clothing when you realize the dynamic and psychology of it.

Here is a serie of fun facts about paid time off in many parts of europe, and specifically in France where I'm at, that can help you see the issues :

One, we have a defined number of days, and in fact everytime you see it mentionned it is in weeks. There is no competition, official or unofficial or in you head, or in your manager's head come promotion time about who took more or less.

Two, we have a defined "holiday period" covering several months, where employee are encouraged to take their holiday, and HAVE to take their main holiday (at least 12 continuous working days, so excluding sundays and saturdays), so there is no issue of "it's not the right time" etc etc ... The employer retain a final say in granting holidays and which order people go (to avoid complete service disruption etc ...) but again, any refusal especially in the main holiday period must be justified BY THE EMPLOYER. PS: this is what causes the funny "the whole of France is not working in August" thing.

Three, your days off can only be "pushed back" one year, after that you lose them, so you're very encouraged to take them and not accumulate them years after years, and there is a clear value being shown to you of "you lost X days worth Y €" instead of a vague "you could have".

Four, if you leave the company (either on your own decision or being fired) they need to pay them to you, and it's the biggest expense when ending someone's contract, so employer have a big incentive to keep employee's available day count low, the way to do that being make them go on their holiday.

Five, if the employee doesn't take his holiday during the year, and ends up having a mental breakdown or whatever, it is considered the employer's fault, you are supposed to make sure your employee take their holiday, and yes you can force them to take their holiday in a two year period at the most.

The entire system is built around the knowledge that if you simply say "people can", then you make it a competition between them in front of the boss, so instead we make the ones who don't take holidays a problem.

Now, as a company owner, at first it's scary (oh shit, we're small scale and some employees are going to leave for three weeks, how will the company ever function), but you quickly learn happy people plan to rejoin their job and want it to be not stressfull, so they plan their work in advance, they ask their collegues to handle what calls or emails or whatever need to be done when away, etc ... You essentially never have that issue.

And then you learn the best trick ever to handle stress at work : free, employer sanctionned day off are the employee's equivalent of turning it off and on again. Sometime it's a "you can take a couple day off" and let them decide, sometime it's "you know, take the end of the week ... no it's not a question, don't be there tomorrow" so again force their hand to be off, and you get a much better environnement of work.

Your first impressions as an employer is that holidays are sort of a gift, or a regulation or whatever. If you pay attention, you quickly learn holidays are not a gift, they're a way for your employee to just ... fucking function properly ? Be liberal with it, you don't need to lose sight of work that need to be done, and if you treat your employee as humans you quickly see that they understand that too.

Sorry for the much longer than planned comment.


I used 31 days last year. At my firm, if you don't use a minimum of 15 days, your manager is dinged. So it's more like "flexible PTO but you have a minimum".


> So it's more like "flexible PTO but you have a minimum".

Not really. Unless you get paid out for it when you resign it's not really a minimum.


I think that's fair - it isn't the same as accrued PTO. But no one in the firm took less than 16 days off in the last 12 months.


I tend to take four weeks in the summer, one week in fall, and one in winter. So six weeks a year in total. I live in Europe.


About 5 weeks per year, in 2 chunks of 2 weeks and the other week is a bunch of "one-offs"


2-3 days a year. Reasons are already discussed in many other comments and threads.


Don't tell me what PTO is, I find it more exciting that way /s


3-6w per year. Not more than 3w at a single time usually..


Never enough


If you take PTO then you are supposed to tip 20% of your pay back to the person that is covering for you. Depending on the job some of the money might be shared with others.

I understand that in some Bay Area companies the rate is now 25%


This is a joke, right?

I'm not familiar with the concept of unlimited PTO, only with the concept of PTO by law, by tariff system (unionised jobs) and by individual employment contracts.

German law says you have to have at least 24 days PTO, given a 5 day 40h week. It's common to have ~30 days PTO in most professions.

And of course you don't give anyone your money, the employer is in charge to organise that people can take time off. And sometimes this is done by having everyone off at the same time.


It is interesting to see the comment from the person in Britain with unlimited PTO. I've never heard of this in the EU/UK before.

They would need to use at least the legal minimum, which in Britain is unchanged from the EU minimum of 20 days.

(I once had a colleague who received a letter from HR reminding him of this requirement, recommending he take all 30 days leave at his preferred time, rather than doing nothing and being required to take the last 20 working days of the year off.)


My english might be failing me. But do you mean you take PTO and pay your coworkers? If so, that's a really funny joke.




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