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New Japanese Pop Idol Shocks Fans With News - She’s Not Real (singularityhub.com)
144 points by kkleiner on June 22, 2011 | hide | past | favorite | 62 comments



This is only a little bit weirder on the continuum of what we already do for pop starlets, both in Japan and the United States. Japan has been manufacturing them -- that is totally the right word, too -- for about 30 years. Disney cottoned onto it a bit later. These days producers already have the key personality traits, demographic fit, sound, and marketing campaign for the new brand already planned out prior to launch, then they just need to find the least important component, the actual girl. They have perfected it so instead of the fund-a-thousand-bands-have-one-breakout-success label model they pick that, e.g., Miley Cyrus will be the next big thing for twelve year olds and then they make it happen.

If Disney could produce popstars in a laboratory they would.

For folks interested in how the Japanese content industry does it, see Merry White's books on the Japanese youth culture, particularly as it regards magazines. (They might need an update for the Internet age, but not all that much of one.)


That manufacturing also appears to carry a considerable investment (or possible payoff). One initially wonders why, when manufactured pop stars spectacularly flame out, that they are simply told to go low profile for a while then come back and act like nothing happened...until you think of them as a multi-million dollar entertainment machine their managers no doubt poured tons of money into in the form of singing lessons, dancing lessons, acting lessons, language lessons, etc. plus the money spent on building up "brand" awareness etc.

I follow Korean pop culture more than Japan's, but I definitely have a sense that the K-POP labels have virtual stables of up and coming "properties", getting paid little, living in bunks with other stars-in-training and eating instant noodles, but being given the very best in song and dance lessons for hours a day, waiting to be selected by their manager to begin a nationwide PR blitz and concert series for at least 2 years of "instant" stardom, then cultural obscurity.

I imagine that something no entirely dissimilar happens in the U.S., but the feeder system is all different...

The K-Pop starlet BoA is one I remember very well (also semi-popular in Japan if I understand correctly), chosen at about 13 (years ago), dropped out of school and "manufactured" through endless training programs to become what she is today. Interestingly, she was an investment by her label specifically for export to the U.S. and Japan. She hasn't done well in the States, but her label seems happy with her performance across the Sea of Japan, infiltrating J-Pop. Her interviews in the States (in very good, but accented English) came across as weird, slightly aloof, uncomfortable and detached...kind of what you'd expect out of somebody who has never really lived a normal life.


Is there in Korea (Asia) a counter culture to pop? The western youth is regularly driven like a pendulum to alternative and uncommercialised styles like Hippies, punk, grunge, electro. The stereotypical hipster who only likes obscure music and independent art by starving but true artists.


There is, but the "stick it to the man and be a rebel" vibe is not nearly as strong as in the States.

Every once in a while the mainstream will flirt with some of the indie groups, sometimes some of the style rubs off and the Pop industry will change.

One very well known case (in Korea) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seo_Tae_Ji basically revolutionized the entire industry a couple of times, changing styles like some people change hair cuts. He basically introduced hard rock and rap into the mainstream (which basically was stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2lD9cvkDx8 ) until he came along.

But there's really some great stuff in the indie scene there. One duo has recently started getting noticed a bit in the mainstream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmJYbdRfDNQ


There is a very active youth crew hardcore scene in Korea. Nicest group of people in world because they are actually a minority and are always hungry for like-minded people.


Scenes are generally full of nice people, until they get popular.


Yes.


<i>I definitely have a sense that the K-POP labels have virtual stables of up and coming "properties"</i>

Someone I knew in London 5 or so years ago got a Development Deal with one of the major labels. He stayed in his normal job, but was paid a retainer to not talk to any other labels for a period of time. I don't know how much it was, but the first time the money hit his account he thought he'd been overpaid and called them so they could correct their error - he was told it was the right amount.

They'd give him some studio time occasionally and have him record demos and do showcase performances for various important people. They offered him a personal chef and a personal trainer to tone up.

Last I heard nothing had ever come of the whole thing. No records released, no attempt at publicly launching his career, etc. I assume the money stopped coming at some point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist_development_deal


Reminds me maybe of the crazy stuff from "The Real Housewives of xyz" or Rebecca Black's (Friday) production company.

Sort of the feeder leagues that produce second and third rate stuff until something percolates up and makes it into the major leagues. I wonder how much music (and videos) is out there? I'd bet some (a small percentage no doubt) of it is pretty good.


> "until you think of them as a multi-million dollar entertainment machine their managers no doubt poured tons of money into"

I would bet the ad spends and branding costs would dwarf the money spent directly on grooming the performer.


I think you are probably correct. Though I'm honestly not sure how the economics work out there. A very great deal of the promotion events happen via television appearances on various variety shows. A label may have spent a decade (or more) investing in training up a performer before they get any public notice.


>If Disney could produce popstars in a laboratory they would.

They basically did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mickey_Mouse_Club


Yes, they've been doing this closer to sixty years.


"If Disney could produce popstars in a laboratory they would." I think The Onion has a great video bit about this exact premise.

http://www.theonion.com/video/disney-lab-unveils-its-latest-...


I've pondered the possibility that when CG eventually solves the uncanny valley effect[1], if ever, that some actors/actresses could sell their persona to be recreated (with royalties of course) and used for future purposes (ie, sequels, remakes, etc.).

Seeing this, I think that could be closer to reality.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley


It's amazing how Gibson predicted this sort of thing almost 20 years ago: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Idoru


Gibson, who is after all the guy who said "the future is already here; it's just not evenly distributed yet", might well point you to patio11's comment, and to various Media Lab-type demos from twenty years ago, and then ask: Was it not obvious that this would happen?

You've also politely failed to notice that Gibson, along with many other people, believed the hype about AI twenty years ago. ;)

Gibson's great because he notices things. For example, I will be eternally grateful for all the Joseph Cornell stuff in Count Zero because it prompted me to go see a show full of actual Joseph Cornell boxes, which are wonderful and are exactly as Gibson described them.


What is the Joseph Cornell stuff? All I could find was a Wikipedia mention of some boxes, but no actual description.


Read Count Zero and you will learn all about Joseph Cornell. Not facts, mind you, but you will learn what Cornell's work feels like.

The Cornell exhibition I went to see is, alas, closed now:

http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Cornell-Lynda-Roscoe-Hartigan/d...

...and all the boxes are back in the hands of various collectors. But modern art museums have them in smaller numbers. I saw a few of them at the Art Institute of Chicago, for example.


That comment tells me nothing about what the boxes are, though :(



I see, thank you.


The 1994 anime "Key: The Metal Idol" had a similar idea as well. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Key_the_Metal...

We could also even go back to Fritz Langs's 1927 film Metropolis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_%28film%29


I was thinking "Sim0ne" from 2002 with Al Pacino: "A producer's film is endangered when his star walks off, so he decides to digitally create an actress to substitute for the star, becoming an overnight sensation that everyone thinks is a real person."


As far as animes go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megazone_23 was probably first, came out in 1985.

The plot development is rather horrible, but idea wise very infuential.


Good call, 'Wintermute' :)

Gibson's stuff seems to never feel old, a remarkable achievement for sci-fi stuff from before the internet era.


came in to mention gibson ... btw, I thought Gorillaz was halfway there to Idoru...


Before that ('94) there was Sharon Apple in Macross Plus: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Macross_plus

The Japanese culture at large is quite in phase with virtual stuff and robots.


This whole thing also gives off a a strong Philip K. Dick vibe.


awesome, was totally going to bring this up.


There's also Hatsune Miku, a Japanese singer created in software:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsune_Miku

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXO7KGHtjI


Miku is the polar opposite though -- she's a character that anyone can use to create their own albums, merchandise, comics, and so forth. The real product is the software itself, which the character has, of course, so effectively promoted.

Effectively, Miku is a sort of "democratized" form of pop culture: instead of a single media company tightly controlling a pop star, it's the masses who reap the benefits.

Hatsune Miku is to Japanese pop idols what Touhou is to popular traditional franchises like Gundam -- and accordingly, has grown in popularity at nearly unheard-of rates. If we're lucky, the next few decades will have more and more of this: pop culture made by consumers, for consumers, for the benefit of consumers.


This reminds me of S1m0ne (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0258153/), in which a CG actress is developed and the producer (unlike this case) attempts to keep it a secret.


They also have a flash site where fans can create their own ideal member using parts from the other girls, and then share and rank each other's creations http://www.icenomi.com/oshimen/index.html


I wrote a CPAN module to do something similar: Acme::MorningMusume::ShinMember:

http://search.cpan.org/~jrockway/Acme-MorningMusume-ShinMemb...


sounds like a fairly standard horror movie plot

For example: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303361/>;


If all our celebrities were CG-generated illusions... what would all the tabloids print to sell magazines? Actual news? I think I'm looking forward to the future!


I doubt you can libel a fiction, so I think the tabloids would get even more creative. Ambush photographers would be replaced by cheaper digital choreographers.


But then you'd be violating copyright. Also it'd be stupid; It's not like people won't realize that the pop-stars aren't real.


The pop-stars aren't real now, they just happen to be played by flesh and blood actors.


Yes but those flesh and blood actors have some very peculiar failure modes once the weight of fame rests on them. This makes for great gossip news.


Now automate the entire thing.

20 years from now. You are befriended on Facebook++ by a person who looks somewhat like all the previous girlfriends you have had. Initiating a 3-D video chat, she seems very friendly and has a lot of the same interests as you do. Every now and then -- so infrequently that you do not notice -- she mentions a particular brand or commercial product, always providing a link. Other than that, she's just a great friend. Always there to provide advice, always willing to cheer you up, always enjoying your jokes and stories. Heck, maybe she's even willing to help you out with your startup, providing introductions to her friends and helping you with your marketing. Maybe she helps locate your next big client. Great stuff, eh?

Except she doesn't exist.


Which raises the question - is this a bad thing?

http://xkcd.com/810/


When they pretend to be a person and not just a commentor, yes. Have another xkcd http://xkcd.com/632/


It's already happening to some extent with real people. There was an article that passed through here a while back that had interviews with ex-419 scammers. One of them was making a living by pretending to be the online girlfriend of some guy. He talked about it in much the same way. He would give him advive, cheer him up, etc. He was essentially 'farming' the guy for money. But this means that he had to deliver real value to the guy to keep stringing him along.


This business model has been popular in Japan since cellphones got email:

http://www.cnngo.com/tokyo/play/deaikei-duties-posing-online...


Which, I believe, is known amongst con artists as a "long con". Harder to pull off, bigger payout.


The kind of cool thing about that example is, provided the guy wasn't being told he'd get to meet the girl, it's just a simple value exchange, beneficial for both parties.

(So long as the advice the scammer gives is good!)


For the past 2K+ years philosophy has been unsuccessful to establish whether the world is more real than (or whether it is real at all outside of) our perception of that said world. Internet/VR adds one more layer in between our perception and the world (even in the case if the world is completely inside the perception). Philosophy is going to boom (in all senses) in the 21st century.


I immediately thought of Sharon Apple, in "Macross Plus" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharon_Apple#Sharon_Apple), although I suppose Hatsune Miku is really the modern Sharon Apple, sans sentience.


I always find it interesting how easily we can be fooled by media, magazines, and makeup. We can be so quick to create these false paradigms on what is real. It will be interesting once technology gets to the point where AI robots can create similar illusions.


Several years ago I came across a website that allows you to make an average face, by averaging the images of multiple people (http://www.faceresearch.org/demos/average?img=/tomcat/averag...). Averaging two dozen faces produces rather striking results (http://boston.conman.org/2007/08/28.1). Even averaging a few faces produces better looking people.


None of the models on magazine covers are real, either. They're just based on real people.

This was a great video showing how far from reality Photoshop can take a picture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U

We're now to the point where supermodels feel bad about themselves when they look at photos of themselves. That is seriously messed up.

This fictional Japanese video star is just the next nutty step.


Let us not forget about this gem of Japan: http://singularityhub.com/2010/11/09/cant-miss-videos-of-jap...


Is it that hard to cast a real Japanese girl who looks like that?


Like a computer-generated thing isn't part of reality.


I think "not a real person" is implied.


Does this mean that High Definition Video evidence of a suspect performing a crime does not constitute very strong evidence of that suspect as guilty of the crime?


Not in and of itself. Evidence of a crime must have strong provenance, that is, people testifying to its history and curation. That's the theory. Whether jurors will be sufficiently sophisticated is a crap shoot - but I'm not prepared to propose anything better.


There was an episode of the TV series Sliders in which the main cast lands in a crime-free world that is obsessed with reality TV cop and court shows. Since the world is crime free, the TV producers stage crimes and digitally superimpose the faces of unwitting perpetrators, then arrest them, try them, and execute them (IIRC - maybe it was just a prison sentence). I'm sure the theme has been used elsewhere as well.


It might at some point, but not yet. This kind of thing would not be feasible enough to do except in extreme circumstances. In the future, as this gets easier to do, it might well become a problem.


Wow, is Youtube absolutely useless for me. Almost 2 minutes to watch a 15 second clip!




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