The hardest thing in life to learn is which bridge to cross and which to burn.
- David Russell
Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge.
- Don Henley
Kind words bridge hearts, but also diamonds, clubs and spades
- Jack Handey
Edit: I don't know if people don't get the reference or think I am merely being flippant. I'm not. I don't like burning bridges either. But sometimes I find it is the only way to put an end to a problem situation where the more I try to be polite and all that, the more neurotic and demanding and blood-sucking they become. If someone here knows how to handle that effectively without "burning the bridge", I would love to hear their take on it.
Or at least that's what my mangled brain recalls from watching it a zillion years ago.
It was the first thing that came to mind in response to "never burn a bridge". I am disinclined to burn bridges myself. But I find sometimes that trying like hell to avoid burning the bridge just gets me into huge messes that have me wondering if so much politeness, manners, respectfulness and what not is really a good thing. It has helped me make my peace with incidents in my life where other people torched the bridge. At least it's been put to rest.
Edit: Link: http://andromeda.wikia.com/wiki/Abridging_the_Devils_Divide
The TV show "Supernatural" heavily features themes of spirituality and daemons that are lifted from Islamic culture. The recent remake of Clash of the Titans also feature similar themes; the Jin, desert scorpions, Jin riding camels, etc.
I am not saying you are wrong. I am only saying that I have no idea if the writers of the TV series had any knowledge of such myths and drew upon them -- even unintentionally -- or if someone sat down and played around with sounds until they found something "alien" sounding. I had never heard of what you are talking about until you brought it up and I am fairly well read and have had middle-eastern friends. If I had any awareness of such myths prior to making my earlier post, I am sure I would have made some effort to clearly indicate it was a sci-fi reference in order to avoid confusion. As far as I knew, there was only way to interpret the word "magog".
I imagine quite a lot of Americans have no knowledge of these mythologies, which would be good reason to borrow from them as inspiration for sci-fi: It's adequately foreign and unknown that it is "alien" to the general public here and there is rich material to draw upon if you get stuck, material that is sufficiently unknown that most people won't realize you drew on anything and will think you are just really, really creative. I have heard that Japanese fiction often draws on Christian mythology in a similar manner, which makes for some misunderstanding if it later gets translated to English and marketed to the "western" world.
Really baffled by your reply.
I think we're just having an academic discussion and citing "prior" sources for the sake of disclosure and intellectual honesty. Hopefully no one is offended by the discovery that their idea of 1st rate sci-fi is rehashed religion, or that their one-true-faith is just pagan lore ;-)
It's like arguing that Aslan, the lion from Narnia, is based on Mufasa, the character from Lion King, because they're both lions and both have luxuriously animated manes.
It's also ridiculous that this tangent about Andromeda has grown so long while there has been zero response to my actual on-topic inquiry regarding negotiating with difficult people.
The Magog, the Nietzscheans, the hot chicks. That show could have had it all.
In fact, the 'take-away' can sometimes be a great think to say in negotiations - it forces the other party into realising that they need this more than you. Of course, this only really works when they do actually need this more than you. Otherwise you come back later, looking desperate, and ready to get out-negotiated.
If their offer is absurd, treat it like it's absurd. The key is to not take it personally. Laugh. They'll either get more reasonable, or you can walk away without burning bridges.
They may simply be trying a hard-ball negotiation strategy, while being able to afford to go a lot higher.
The best thing you can do is to explain that their offer is worse than nothing for you and there is no way you can go ahead with it (but don't tell them your break-even point), and collect more information about their situation - understand why they want to do business with you, try to understand it from their point of view: how much revenue can they make from what you have, and what their costs and revenues for substitute options. If they won't get as much revenue from the deal as what your costs will be, then it is not possible for you both to make a profit and you can part amicably without doing a deal.
If they would bring in a lot of revenue because of the deal compared to their next best option, you can offer them a price which splits the profit for mutual benefit.
Collecting the information needed to see it from their point of view is hard and takes tact, but it is the most important part of negotiating.
If the other party needs you and knows it, the "fuck you" or "walk away" tactic brings things to a head quickly.
The world is filled with quacks and assholes - as soon as your radar is tuned, you'll be able to filter the people worth keeping good relations with.
For my current job my employer's first offer was exactly the amount I'd been looking for. So I said 'yes' and didn't negotiate at all.
Maybe I could've talked them up, but I got what I was looking for and we closed the meeting in under 15 minutes with everyone happy.
If someone offers you what you want, why waste time negotiating for more?
Because you can use the extra amount to provide additional security for your family, or runway for your next startup?
There wouldn't've realistically been room to haggle much up, my new employer being aware of current market conditions. The figure I'm talking about is the one you give to recruiters when they ask how much you want - it's my starting/'ideal' figure.
For a job that matched my desired career path almost perfectly, as a greenfield project at a very early stage start-up, using exactly the technologies that I'm interested in, offering me the number I've been giving to slave-traders, I didn't feel like negotiating.
If it'd been a suit-and-tie deal with one of the many local banks and insurance companies, that might be a different story. Their paperclip budget will be orders of magnitude more than my current employer's staffing budget. If I ask for too much money it might simply cut the runway down until it's no longer viable, and then I've wasted everyone's time.
Ultimately, I think this was an ideal 'negotiation' - they offered me exactly what I wanted, and I said 'yes'. Sometimes all the negotiation tactics and stupid head games can distract that whole point is for everyone to get what they want. I don't have space in my head to deal with second-guessing myself and my (then potential) employer over it all.
I find most people (at least in the US) are uncomfortable negotiating, since the only times you do it seriously are when getting a job and buying a car. So long as you don't resort to the "Fuck You", negotiating is a professional thing to do and all will be forgotten once you come to an agreement and start the job.
I have and will continue to waste swathes of time on far less beneficial pursuits so I can find plenty time for that!
If you are that much more concerned about getting the best possible price (or whatever) vs. getting a set number you actually want, then you should go into the negotiation with enough information to already know what the best possible price should be.
I once suggested a salary range from [thrilling for me] to [unbelievable] and was offered the high number. I never felt like I "lost" -- until of course a year later when we were all laid off in early 2001. Ah, the "dot-com era."
I suppose some people will always be haunted by suspicions their deal could have been better. But for me, people instantly accepting my high offer is not going to be a lifelong regret.
I largely agree with this article and even this point in particular, but I think you will often end up in a situation where stating a range can move things along quickly. If you qualify it properly, it can be a useful way to turn the tables. For example, if you are discussing rate you could say well, from the other people I've been talking to it looks like positions like this one pay between $45 and $65 an hour, depending on various factors, but of course more detail is required to pin the number down exactly and it varies for each individual, so what kind of budgetary, time and code quality constraints are on this project?
I think this is a nice way of turning the tables, it would be socially weird for them to just ignore the question and be like, "so what EXACTLY were you looking for?"
Of course, they may end up offering you at 45 to start, but you can just kind of scoff at that (if you want) and be like well this seems more complex/difficult because... there's nothing wrong with continually edging away from the question until they get frustrated.
I've made this mistake before, and find that people always zoom in on the lower number and think that's your actual offer. And then it's quite awkward to say "Well, I didn't really mean $45, I won't do it for that little."
I've found that offering a range works much better when I make the lower number of the range quite a bit higher than what I actually want. That gives me room to come down, so that even once they've talked you down from that lower range, it's still higher than what you wanted.
Although I suppose if you threw out a really high range that might have the same effect. "I'm thinking $60-$85" and get them anchored on the $60 number you're really after. You might scare them off with the top number in the range tho...
I've always done a lot better by coming in at slightly above the number I really want. If I'm looking for $60, I'll come in at $70. I'll justify why I'm charging that, and then let them move me off of it down to what I wanted in the first place. After all, if I said "$45-$65" and they paid $60 then they feel like their paying too much (their coming in at $15/hour over what you anchored them on). By starting at $70 and coming down to $60 they feel like they got a steal.
Or you could just say "well, from the other people I've been talking to it looks like positions like this one pay about $75 an hour."
The only thing I can think of is playing poker or something at the casino...
Actually, I wonder why most adults lose that ability as they get older. My guess is that sometime in the teen years, people start caring about what others think of them, and that is poison to negotiations.
InSt 435 (5) or
Mgmt 430 (5)
I highly recommend the second book especially. Towards the end of class, there is a group negotiation exercise. I thought it was quite good.
Did you negotiate your grade at the end of the class?
I reckon that these guys are good negotiators and see how I can fare against them.
Edit : Oh, just thought of another one. Tele marketers. I would probably welcome them with open arms now