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Ask HN: Is S3 down?
2589 points by iamdeedubs 263 days ago | hide | past | web | 1055 comments | favorite
I'm getting

{ "errorCode" : "InternalError" }

When I attempt to use the AWS Console to view s3




Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud.

Apologies if you find this to be in poor taste, but GCS directly supports the S3 XML API (including v4):

https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/interoperability

and has easy to use multi-regional support at a fraction of the cost of what it would take on AWS. I directly point my NAS box at home to GCS instead of S3 (sadly having to modify the little PHP client code to point it to storage.googleapis.com), and it works like a charm. Resumable uploads work differently between us, but honestly since we let you do up to 5TB per object, I haven't needed to bother yet.

Again, Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud (and we've had our own outages!).


Apologies if this is too much off-topic, but I want to share an anecdote of some some serious problems we had with GCS and why I'd be careful to trust them with critical services:

Our production Cloud SQL started throwing errors that we could not write anything to the database. We have Gold support, so quickly created a ticket. While there was a quick reply, it took a total of 21+ hours of downtime to get the issue fixed. During the downtime, there is nothing you can do to speed this up - you're waiting helplessly. Because Cloud SQL is a hosted service, you can not connect to a shell or access any filesystem data directly - there is nothing you can do, other than wait for the Google engineers to resolve the problem.

When the Cloud SQL instance was up&running again, support confirmed that there is nothing you can do to prevent a filesystem crash, it "just happens". The workaround they offered is to have a failover set up, so it can take over in case of downtime. The worst part is that GCS refused to offer credit, as according to their SLA this is not considered downtime. The SLA [1] states: "with respect to Google Cloud SQL Second Generation: all connection requests to a Multi-zone Instance fail" - so as long as the SQL instance accepts incoming connections, there is no downtime. Your data can get lost, your database can be unusable, your whole system might be down: according to Google, this is no downtime.

TL;DR: make sure to check the SLA before moving critical stuff to GCS.

[1]: https://cloud.google.com/sql/sla


The GCS being referred to by the GP is Google Cloud Storage, not Cloud Sequel. You really do need failover set up though. That's true for basically any MySQL installation, managed or not.


That isn't just a Google issue though. You'd have had the exact same trouble with AWS/RDS if you're running with no replica. The lack of filesystem access is a security "feature" for both. If you have no HA setup then you have no recourse but to restore to a new server from backup, or wait for your cloud provider to fix it.


RDS has snapshot backups you can create an instance from iirc so you can self fix this kind of issues.

Sure you get downtime all the same but not the waiting for support to solve an instance crash part


Yes, and RDS offers point in time recovery at that.

We've had to use it and can confirm that it works as advertised.


Not using a failover is a bold choice (not stupid, just bold). A failover is like a good insurance policy: you pay for it, you hope that you'll never need it, but when shit happens you are very happy to have it!


21 hours sounds pretty long to me. What type of data was it and how long would you have waited until you continued with a backup of the data on a different machine?


We were definitely prepared to recover from a backup, but the support team told us: "the issue with the file system will likely persevere over a backup/restore". So this, in combination with the data loss you have when recovering from a backup, means we basically had no choice other than to wait till the issue was resolved.


I've used both Google Cloud and AWS, and as of a year or so ago, I'm a Google Cloud convert. (Before that, you guys didn't at all have your shit together when it came to customer support)

It's not in bad taste, despite other comments saying otherwise. We need to recognize that competition is good, and Amazon isn't the answer to everything.


We were on GCP for around a year, it was my decision I really wanted to love GCP and I initially did. But we recently switched to AWS.

I think there is little GCP does better than AWS. Pricing is better on paper, but performance per buck seems to be on par. Stability is a lot worse on GCP, and I don't just mean service outages like this one (which they had their fair share) but also individual issues like instances slowing down or network acting up randomly. Also lack of service offerings like no PostgreSQL, functions never leaving alpha, no hosted redis clusters etc... Support is also too expensive compared to AWS.

Management interfaces are better on GCP and sustained use discount is a big step up against AWS reservations. Otherwise, I think AWS works better.


I haven't used AWS, but my experience with AppEngine and by extension GCP is similar.

Just last week I got an email saying that they'd discovered an issue on Google Cloud Datastore where certain (strongly consistent!) queries could have been returning incorrect results for a week long period and that I should check my logs to see if anything important had been affected in my application.

That's not the sort of behaviour that inspires confidence in a service.


Functions are going beta this week


And discontinued next year?


The standard "lol google will kill it in 6 months anyway" troll doesn't really apply to Google Cloud services. They know better than to be fickle with infrastructure offerings.


Are you sure? Have you used appengine or any of their cloud libraries? Just found out that some of the services I wrote 3 years ago don't work anymore due various breaking changes. It also very much applies to cloud services themselves! What happened to the email service(appengine powered)?I'm telling you: it no longer exists! Compare that with AWS SES which gets better and better. I could go on and on all day long. Google cloud is nice on paper but fails in practice. If you consider the lock-in it is not worth it on paper either


That happened to me and my sites were down for four months. I lost 15 years of seo, and $30/mo revenue... They just shut down the Python app engine sites with no notice. I'll never use google cloud.


What? That sounds like nonsense. Some sources please.


I wish it were. It was an enormous amount of effort to get my pagerank that high. I suppose I could post my google analytics before and after, but that's not really data I share with the public.


I'm not doubting your site was "down for four months". I'm doubting the part where you said "They just shut down the Python app engine sites with no notice".

Most notably, I know many people who run these types of sites and outside of GAE being mediocre, I've never heard them complain about anything like that.


This was the very first version of app engine that rolled out in 2008 or so. It showed some type of "incompatible version" notice in the admin ui when I noticed it, and when I tried to redeploy the sites using the command line deploy tool. I switched everything to s3.


How much advance notice did they give when they were shutting down that email service? I bet it was like eight months or more. Things change, you have to deal with it sometimes. Seems kinda normal.


People don't like to rewrite infrastructure code just b/c the provider decided it's not worth it anymore. When you sign up you consider the whole ecosystem not individual services. The cloud platform is marketed as reliable and rock solid that you can trust. It may be the case with AWS but on Google you should expect experimental, cheap and a high risk to get broken or even deprecated all together. It behaves like a start-up with customers paying for experiments. It's OK for some use cases but you should be aware of that.


No trolling, just tired of setting up things that just stop working and forcing me to work on a fix. I dont work for a big company with a dev team of 20 people, its just me and customer support. Im close to a burn out as it is, I dont need help with it.


I've used Appengine since 2009. Early on they deprecated the original master-slave datastore, but apart from that I've had zero refactoring around their services.

Other services are a different story - from my perspective Google are better at supporting legacy interfaces than most.


They deprecated their alpha search api 2 years in iirc


They have a minimum of 1 year deprecation policy in their terms of service.


I hear you, discontinuing products that you're dependent on is painful, but discontinuing services that you built your infrastructure around is an outright killer.


Counterpoint from an email I received just last week (Feb 21st):

> We are writing to inform you that we are winding down sales and renewals of Google Site Search (GSS). Starting April 1st, 2017, new purchases and renewals of GSS will not be available.


GSS isn't under Cloud and doesn't have the same deprecation policy. Cloud explicitly states that it has a minimum 1-year turndown on any feature they disable.


> They know better than to be fickle with infrastructure offerings

Site Search seems like an infra offering to me.


Cloud is still competing with on premises solutions, right? One year is nothing, try ten or twenty.


> Cloud is still competing with on premises solutions, right? One year is nothing, try ten or twenty.

Not an expert by any means but I would put more weight to Google's ONE year promise over (to give an example) HPE's twenty years promise. I know it is a cheap shot because I am pretty sure HPE will be bought and sold at least once in the next twenty years.


FWIW I am now dealing with a system that is supported by HPE for over 10 years now. Even if they get bought out, someone will inherit those support obligations. I am also in the camp of not trusting Google with anything.


GSS shutdown gives us a year also. I just migrated to GSS a year ago. And they decommissioned they big appliance Google Enterprise Serarch I think it was called.

We were users of the Google Mini Search appliance, went to a 3rd party in-house installed search solution that we did not like and then a year ago went to GSS. We are looking again for something suitable. The best part of the Google Site Search was search fidelity.


Try open-source search solutions? :)


They did it to their Google Analytics API. We spent four months building a dashboard off of it then Google fucking deprecated it. Thanks Google.


Not entirely true. App engine depreciations happen all the time and they give about 1 years notice. Most recently the channel api, before that prospective search, backends, etc etc


"oh no I only have _an entire year_ to deal with an API deprecation what ever will I do?" :-P


Well, if it's something you've built your entire offering around it could be a simple fix, or it could be months of work, and that will vary by project. Bear in mind that this is completely non-value-adding work that you didn't plan on just to bring your project back to a functioning state.

I.e., some douchebag who has no interest or stake in what you do has just dumped a potentially substantial amount of technical debt into your product backlog and, quite possibly, prioritised it all the way to the top.

As somebody else noted above: I don't need people creating more work from me. I can do that quite well enough on my own, thanks very much, and for side-projects this kind of chopping and changing is a pain in the ass.

By definition, with side-projects time is limited, so you absolutely have to focus on the most valuable activities to the exclusion of all else. For this reason, I only consider AWS and Azure for my projects: Google are just too fickle. Lucky you, if you have the time to deal with their nonsense.

(Btw, I'm not dissing Google on a technical level - they obviously do great, interesting work, and they're certainly one of the pioneers of PaaS. I just don't need the hassle of having to fix stuff because they keep killing APIs, projects, services.)


Yes exactly. The app specifically affected by Channels API depreciation is a side project that serves a few thousand people. It marches along perfectly well, and I pay Google money for it each month - though the project itself makes no money. Now, I need to consider whether the shift from Channel API to Firebase (and the few days work it'll take to do) is worth the investment, or if I should just shut it down.


> doesn't really apply to Google Cloud services

It might not, but doing it so much for other services destroys trust across the entire brand.


I, for one, would love to see Redis and Postgres on GCP. That would be enough to get me to switch I think.


Wait for the NEXT event. Radis will be announced.


Me too. We switched to Google Cloud years ago at its inception and have never looked back -- always viewed it as a competitive advantage due to its solid, more advanced infrastructure -- faster network, reliable disks, cleaner UI that's easier to manage. Just a cleaner operation all the way around.


What indeed is bad taste is your choice of Google Cloud over AWS. No I really like GCP, use it at core of many apps, but if people really want a decentralized web we need to use more than one provider. Don't "convert". Use booth, redundancy ffs.


Pity I can't upvote more than once! :)

This whole idea of being angry at a vendor for deprecating something with 1yr notice is just ridiculous!

People need to realize they are choosing lock-in, and are choosing the risk of deprecation every time they decide to use a cloud service with no drop in competition/open source/etc.

Own your choices people, don't blame others...


Sounds great on paper, but this is infrastructure level stuff with real world constraints.

The expectation of stability beyond a year is certainly not unreasonable when you're asking people to build their businesses/infrastructure on your platform.

And, building redundancy across providers can be impractical, owed to learning curve, cost duplication, higher outbound bandwidth costs, effort duplication, solution complexity, etc.


What's the point of decentralizing by putting 50% on one, 50% on the other, and no overlap of the groups? You used the word redundancy, but who is willing to actually do that true redundancy?


I work in GCP support. I'm really curious: what do you feel changed that led to such improved support? I'd like to make sure we keep doing it.


Chiming in as I noticed the change too. For a long time it was almost impossible to speak with a human - every query was directed to the extensive but often useless support pages. If a human did respond it often seemed like they weren't savvy enough to handle a microwave let alone solve infra issues.

Then, about a year or two ago - humans actually started responding to and fixing problems. A welcome change!


Do you have one of the paid support packages, or is this your experience of our google groups/stack overflow etc?


My experience of support with Google Apps for Business makes me very wary of using anything Google for critical business infra. Google products are nice, but as soon as you hit a problem or edge case, you're on your own in my experience.


This.

I used to work on the Azure Portal Team. As much negative things as I can say about Microsoft, they take making things just work for developers seriously, despite high prices and misc. service issues.

The since nixed compute container project I initially worked on really exemplified this.

I tend to use Colo or AWS when possible but I have a client that insisted on Google GCE and Endpoints.

I've spent so much time time digging through source code and working around broken dev tooling, and dealing with incorrect or out of date documentation thanks to that requirement.

In my personal opinion Google has a way to go in mature tooling. Silent failures, or worse failures that don't result in build failures are not acceptable. Requiring paid support contracts to resolve an issue in google infra is not acceptable. Incredibly poor support for local dev environments is not acceptable.

After dealing with this stuff, I find it unlikely that I will ever rely on their systems in the future. AWS/Colo or, with reservations, Azure all the way.


Wish I could +1 this more. Any time I get some error, I spend hours sifting through old documentation and forum posts.


Why not just open a support ticket?


Exactly. Because they've usually only experienced support for Google's free services, people assume all Google support is minimal - but it isn't. We pay $150 a month for silver support, and in the extremely rare (several years apart) case we need help, we get it.


Google Apps for Business is not free.


True, it costs $5 a month - nearly free. It comes down to the eternal truth that there is no such thing as a free lunch, and expecting a $100/hour support person to be at your beck and call for $5 a month isn't realistic.


In my GApps support experience, it's slow and inexperienced.


Spot on.

And good luck getting accurate documentation.


Honestly, if you're a big service that millions of people use, you should not put all your eggs in a single basket and should probably use a mix, in case one of the clouds goes down like in this case.


One of the biggest reasons you go for a cloud is because you don't want to deal with reliability & scaling issues, and there's a premium price attached to that. I think most companies using S3 in this case believed they put their eggs in different baskets when they put their data in there.


I can't believe anyone would have thought a dependency on a single AWS region, or even single service provider, would count as having eggs in different baskets, at least, I really hope nobody could think that!

I suspect though that most people affected deemed the risks and costs of failure low enough to be acceptable, and for many people it still is - even with this outage. But that's a conscious decision, rather than plain ignorance.


That depends if you're willing to pay for the cost of hosting all your content twice and the development overhead of managing that. Twice the persistences means twice the chance of an issue occurring.


That's where tech like kubernetes help in making your app/service portable. Or having common APIs like between s3 and google cloud storage.

Twice the persistence means always having at least one backup and thus the occurance of downtime reduces not up


With containers, I think the devops overhead would be minimal.


That's if _everything_ is in containers. Also, don't undermine how much of a difference the host machine configuration can make... Docker uses its kernel.


>(Before that, you guys didn't at all have your shit together when it came to customer support)

Sounds like it basically coincides with Diane Greene coming on board to run the show -- which is great news for all of us with increased competition on not just the technical front but also support (which is often the deal maker/breaker)


Is Diane really that good?

I was at a talk last year, where she spoke, and as much as I love Google, it was one of the boat boring talks I've ever heard in my life. So monotone and uninteresting... and I'm probably one of the biggest Google fans out there.


I have no idea about the person in question, but stable and reliable infrastructure can be really boring. Unfortunately, it's also necessary.


I'm not familiar with her public speaking. But you want someone decidedly un-Google-like to run an enterprise software (non-engineering) operation.

Look at Safra Catz's public speaking (Oracle). Terrible public speaker, terrific operator [1].

[1] though we may easily disagree with their business practices.


I just wrote a piece reflecting on the s3 outage and the limitations of s3 metadata/replication:

https://medium.com/@jim_dowling/reflections-on-s3s-architect...



GCP has always felt like a forever beta product. On top of that you get a lot of lockin so I would never recommend GCP for a long term project.


The brilliance of open sourcing Borg (aka Kubernetes) is evident in times like these. We[0] are seeing more and more SaaS companies abstract away their dependencies on AWS or any particular cloud provider with Kubernetes.

Managing stateful services is still difficult but we are starting to see paths forward [1] and the community's velocity is remarkable.

K8s seems to be the wolf in sheep's clothing that will break AWS' virtual monopoly on IaaS.

[0] We (gravitational.com) help companies go "multi-region" or on-prem using Kubernetes as a portable run-time.

[1] Some interesting projects from this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13738916)

* Postgres automation for Kubernetes deployments https://github.com/sorintlab/stolon

* Automation for operating the Etcd cluster:https://github.com/coreos/etcd-operator

* Kubernetes-native deployment of Ceph: https://rook.io/


Note that Kubernetes "builds upon 15 years of experience of running production workloads [on Borg] at Google" [0], but is different code than Borg.

In addition to Rook, Minio [1] is also working to build an S3 alternative on top of Kubernetes, and the CNCF Landscape is a good way of tracking projects in the space [2].

[0] https://kubernetes.io/ [1] https://www.minio.io/ [2] https://github.com/cncf/landscape

Disclosure: I'm the executive director of CNCF, which hosts Kubernetes, and co-author of the landscape.


Yes, I was admittedly over generalizing with my statement regarding open sourcing Borg.


Well, you're in the ballpark. I might be wrong, but I've heard they're not averse to the idea of open sourcing Borg and Omega (it wasn't that long ago that the Borg paper would have been nigh unthinkable, interestingly), but the litany of Google specific stuff that is baked in makes refactoring for public release a nonstarter. It's a huge codebase with lots of little tendrils to other internal infrastructure.

Anyway, one needs an on-ramp to containers on Google Cloud. And one can't open source the one that one has, which despite being nearly mature enough to own a driver's license, wouldn't really fulfill the precise need that Kubernetes fills without some frontend work. So one writes Kubernetes. An almost entirely different fundamental architecture, by the way, so it's interesting for those who've seen both to compare.

In other words, you're not entirely off the mark even with the generalization.


K8s is a better borg! It leaps forward and build upon many years experience of operating the system.


Is there any way built in to Kubernetes to go multi-AZ, multi-region, or even multi-cloud? Is federation the answer to this?

I remember reading somewhere in the K8s documentation that it is designed such that nodes in a single cluster should be as close as possible, like in the same AZ.



I have a component in my business that writes about 9 million objects a month to Amazon S3. But, to leverage efficiencies in dropping storage costs for those objects I created an identical archiving architecture on Google Cloud.

It took me about 15 minutes to spin up the instances on Google Cloud that archive these objects and upload them to Google Storage. While we didn't have access to any of our existing uploaded objects on S3 during the outage, I was able to mitigate not having the ability to store any future ongoing objects. (our workload is much more geared towards being very very write heavy for these objects)

It it turns out this cost leveraging architecture works quite well as a disaster recovery architecture.


Opportunistic, sure. But I did not know about the API interoperability. Given the prices, makes sense to store stuff in both places in case one goes down.


I am surprised more people don't know about it. I get questions like https://github.com/kahing/goofys/issues/158 every now and then and to be fair I don't think they market it well: https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/migrating

Disclosure: I don't work for google but have an upcoming interview there.


"Disclosure: I don't work for google but have an upcoming interview there."

Disclosure: I took a tour there one time and have used google.

EDIT: I realized that I was being mean, but why was that disclaimer relevant?


A few possible reasons, the most obvious being grandparent is disclosing a possible source of bias.

Also it could look suspicious if grandparent gets the job and at some point in the future someone looks back at this comment.

If in doubt, disclose. Especially in the tech industry, that's what Gamergate was actually about.


> I realized that I was being mean, but why was that disclaimer relevant?

Because:

- transparency is always good

- adding a small disclosure to the bottom of a post is very low impact

- someone who is interviewing for a job at a company is likely to have a set of biases that influence what they say even if they think that they're being honest and objective.


I think it's a fair disclosure of potential bias.


Frankly, if you don't know the difference between a disclosure and a disclaimer, you shouldn't be commenting.


Not poor taste at all. Love GCP. I actually host two corporate static sites using Google Cloud Storage and it is fantastic. I just wish there was a bucket wide setting to adjust the cache-control setting. Currently it defaults to 1 hour, and if you want to change it, you have to use the API/CLI and provide a custom cache control value each upload. I'd love to see a default cache-control setting in the web UI applying to the entire bucket.

I also want to personally thank Solomon (@boulos) for hooking me up with a Google Cloud NEXT conference pass. He is awesome!


Out of curiosity, are you also using the cloud CDN?

https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/load-balancing/http/us...


I found Google Cloud CDN a little overly complicated to get setup since you need to use load balancers.

I use CloudFlare. They handle generating a SSL certificate, can have a CNAME at the APEX, full-site static caching, 301 http => https redirects, etc.


How did you get the pass?

Been trying to get one for IO (can't attend NEXT unfortunately)


Hopefully you're still there even though S3 is back up. I have an interesting question I really, really hope you can answer. (Potential customer(s) here!!)

There are a large number of people out there looking intently at ACD's "unlimited for $60/yr" and wondering what that really means.

I recently found https://redd.it/5s7q04 which links to https://i.imgur.com/kiI4kmp.png (small screenshot) showing a user hit 1PB (!!) on ACD (1 month ago). If I understand correctly, the (throwaway) data in question was slowly being uploaded as a capacity test. This has surprised a lot of people, and I've been seriously considering ACD as a result.

On the way to finding the above thread I also just discovered https://redd.it/5vdvnp, which details how Amazon doesn't publish transfer thresholds, their "please stop doing what you're doing" support emails are frighteningly vague, and how a user became unable to download their uploaded data because they didn't know what speed/time ratios to use. This sort of thing has happened heaps of times.

I also know a small group of Internet archivists that feed data to Archive.org. If I understand correctly, they snap up disk deals wherever they can find them, besides using LTO4 tapes, the disks attached to VPS instances, and a few ACD and GDrive accounts for interstitial storage and crawl processing, which everyone is afraid to push too hard so they don't break. One person mentioned that someone they knew hit a brick wall after exactly 100TB uploaded - ACD simply would not let this person upload any more. (I wonder if their upload speed made them hit this limit.) The archive group also let me know that ACD was better at storing lots of data, while GDrive was better at smaller amounts of data being shared a lot.

So, I'm curious. Bandwidth and storage are certainly finite resources, I'll readily acknowledge that. GDrive is obviously going to have data-vs-time transfer thresholds and upper storage limits. However, GSuite's $10/month "unlimited storage" is a very interesting alternative to ACD (even at twice the cost) if some awareness of the transfer thresholds was available. I'm very curious what insight you can provide here!

The ability to create share links for any file is also pretty cool.


Now that's what I call a shameless plug!


We would definitely seriously consider switching to GCS more if your cloud functions were as powerful as AWS Lambda (trigger from an S3 event) and supported Python 3.6 with serious control over the environment.


Is there something about the GCS trigger that doesn't work for you? I hear you on Python 3, but I'm also curious about "serious control over the environment". Can you be more specific?


Here are our main issues with Lambda, from highest-to-lowest priority:

- It supports Python 2.7 only. We need Python 3.4+ support.

- We can't increase CPU allocation without increasing RAM allocation, making them far more expensive than we need.

- Using psycopg2 on it is a PITA due to their handling of system dependencies.

- The system is entirely proprietary, making it impossible to run it locally for testing.

- Cloudwatch sucks for finding errors in the functions and is atrociously expensive.

- API gateway is an extremely crufty system, and used not to let you pass around binary data (this has changed)

- We can't disable/change the retry-on-error policy.

We have a pretty hard tie-in to S3 and Redshift, but when GCF can do better on a majority of these points, we'll begin moving to it. But yes, Python 3 at a minimum would be a requirement.


> The system is entirely proprietary, making it impossible to run it locally for testing.

I assume that you are referring to emulating the triggering of lambdas behind API gateway...? I've found a project that sets up a node environment to do this. Very handy for js/lambda development. A google search suggests similar options may exist for python.


On a curious note, how do you guys use lambda?


It's a little outdated now, but this post details our pipeline: https://hearthsim.info/blog/how-we-process-replays/


As someone who's literally just starting to look at Lambda, thanks for that quick read.

I had a lot of "chicken and egg"-type questions about using it, and seeing that critical step of bootstrapping the whole thing via the API Gateway was really informative.


I keep telling people that in my view, Google Cloud is far superior to AWS from a technical standpoint. Most people don't believe me... Yet. I guess it will change soon.


Google Cloud is the Betamax of cloud... while it might be technically superior it's not the only factor to consider. :)


Aww... that seems a little early to call ;).


you don't comment for 4 years and THAT'S the comment you choose to return with?


Yep, replace "compiling" with "S3 recovery" in the following XKCD - https://xkcd.com/303/


What other factors make it doomed for failure like betamax?


I wouldn't say that it's doomed to failure but I do think it has a lot of ground to cover to catch-up. Google has a lot of great technology like TensorFlow, Kubernetes, and Go that will keep them relevant.

In support of my flippant remark I see three indicators that hold parallels to Betamax with detail to follow. I qualify that it is largely informed by my own anecdotal experience. Specifically by objections and responses that I've received/observed while myself and peers have proposed or implemented cloud adoption at various companies.

Indicators

1. market share. 2. proprietary tech stack. 3. technical superiority syndrome.

Detail

1. Currently AWS has a major lead, then Azure, then Google. The implication is that market share translates to mindshare, which in turn yields blog articles, OSS libraries/tools, etc. This becomes a virtuous cycle.

For .NET shops that marketshare will tend to favour Azure on the premise that MS knows best.

2. Some of Google's technology stack has a learning curve that is unique to Google. Take GAE as an example and compare to AWS's nearest equivalent Beanstalk (or Heroku). Beanstalk requires few if any changes to an existing application whereas GAE requires that you do it the App Engine way. It might provide a number of benefits, but it's invasive. Containers are shifting the requirement, however not everyone is in a position or has the desire to start with containers on day 1.

Further Google Cloud's project oriented approach while not a bad organisation mechanism detracts from learning. If you assume the premise that exploration is part of learning it forces the user to hold two items in their head: their objective and Google Clouds imposed objective.

AWS on the other hand generally provides defaults that allow you to launch resources almost immediately after sign-up. Google's approach is better for long-term support, maintenance and organisation but the user needs to have the maturity to understand that benefit.

3. It may be technically superior but that statement in of itself is divisive and can shudder some away. It is not enough to simply be technically superior and from my observation the statements tend to originate from X/Googlers.

A number of people will latch onto feature set (for beta, number of films available was a factor). The absence of features will often discount a choice out of the gate (even if those features are irrelevant) as an example:

- regional coverage: AWS - 15 regions/~38 zones Azure - 36 regions/zones Google - 6 regions/18 zones

- partially/fully managed services: AWS is continually growing these, at a level that seems to outpace competitors.

- Outwardly Google appears to tackle the "hard problems" with technically superior solutions (e.g. TensorFlow, BigQuery) but often appears to neglect the "boring" problems a number of companies want as well (e.g. Cloud VDI's, SnowBall, etc).

- Some areas seem to be ossified due to tight coupling (e.g. servlet 3.0 and python support in GAE).

Summary

There is no silver bullet solution. Every provider will have an outage at some point and this could be a big reason that GCE won't be knocked out of the game. I also think Google is working really hard to build community and mindshare. I don't have a crystal ball so only time will tell what happens but technical superiority has rarely been the sole reason that drives adoption.


I appreciate you taking the time to explain. I'm in the process of making decisions on a new cloud storage provider so this is helpful.


One service outage determines superiority? I prefer a lot more data than a single point.


I'm in the process of moving to GCS mostly based on how byzantine the AWS setup is. All kinds of crazy unintuitive configurations and permissions. In short, AWS makes me feel stupid.


I should add that someone from the AWS team reached out to me in response to this comment asking for feedback on how they can improve their usability. So I give them credit for that.


As far as I understand the S3 API of Cloud Storage is meant as a temporary solution until a proper migration to Google's APIs.

The S3 keys it produces are tied to your developer account. This means that if someone gets the keys from your NAS, he will have access to all the Cloud Storage buckets you have access to (e.g your employer's).

I use Google Cloud but not Amazon. Once I wanted a S3 bucket to try with NextCloud (then OwnCloud). I was really frightened to produce a S3 key with my google developer account.


The HMAC credential that you'd use with the S3-compatible GCS API, also called the "XML API", does need to be associated with a Google account, but it doesn't need to be the main account of the developer. It can be any Google user account. I suggest creating a separate account and granting it only the permissions it needs. It'd be nice if service accounts (aka robot accounts) could be given HMAC credentials, that's not supported. Service accounts can, however, sign URLs with RSA keys.

As another option, you can continue using the XML API and switch out only the auth piece to Google's OAuth system while changing nothing else.

There's a lot more detail available at: https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/migrating

Disclaimer: I work on Google Cloud Storage.


Thanks for the advice. I think it would be even nicer if the HMAC credentials could be assigned to a specific bucket via an ACL.

I like GCS (and the gsutil tool) but occasionally a S3 style bucket is needed. For example you need a S3 bucket or a webdav server in order to send alerts with images from Grafana to Slack. A minor issue but nice to have if possible without having to deal with Amazon's control panel.


Is there any equivalent to the Bucket Policies that AWS provides (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonS3/latest/dev/example-bucke...). Cloud Storage seems to be limited to relatively simple policies without conditionals. For a few AWS IAM keys I set up a policy that limits write/delete access to a range of IPs (among other things). Something like that doesn't seem possible with what Google offers. Or do I miss something?


I am not familiar with AWS bucket policies, but AFAIK there isn't a way to set IP based access to GCS buckets.

To be honest, I do find the GCS permissions a bit complex. You have IAM, you have ACLs and you have S3 keys. Everything is set in a different place and ACLs aren't fully represented on the developers console. S3 keys give full access to everything, IAM service accounts give access per project and ACLs are fine grained (per bucket/object). On the other hand, IIRC, IAM has a write only setting, while ACLs do not. So I can have an account that can write only to all the buckets of my project but not an ACL (not that useful).


> OwnCloud

Kicked the tires, not impressed at all. Notes went missing from the interface could only get them back after manually digging through folders via FTP.


"fraction of the cost" - how do you figure? Or are you just saying from a cost-to-store perspective?

Your Egress prices are quite a bit more compared to CloudFront for sub 10TB (.12/GB vs .085/GB).

The track record of s3 outages vs time your up and sending Egress seems like S3 wins in cost. If all your worried about is cross region data storage, your probably a big player and have AWS enterprise agreement in place which offsets the cost of storage.


Sorry, my comparison is our Multi Regional storage (2.6c/GB/month) versus S3 Standard plus Cross-Regional Replication. That's the right comparison (especially for outages like this one).

As to our network pricing, we have a drastically different backbone (we feel its superior, so we charge more). But as you mention CloudFront, the right comparison is probably Google Cloud CDN (https://cloud.google.com/cdn/) which has lower pricing than "raw egress".


So this is more compute related but do you know if there are any plans on supporting the equivalent of the webpagetest.org(WPT) private instance AMI on your platform?

Not only is webpagetest.org a google product but it's also much better suited for the minute by minute billing cycle of google cloud compute. For any team not needing to run hundreds of tests an hour the cost difference between running a WPT private instance on EC2 versus on google cloud compute could easily be in the thousands of dollars.


Would use Google but I just can't give up access to China. Sad because I also sympathize with Google's position on China.


boulous not in bad taste at all - happy google convert and gcs user works very well for us ymmv


boulous is app engine datastore the preferred way to store data or cloud sql or something else, do you mind throwing some light on this thanks


If you made a .NET library that allows easily connecting to both AWC and GCS by only changing the endpoint I would certainly use that library instead of Amazon's own.

Just saying, it gets you a foot in the door.


Competition is great for consumers!


I had no idea this was an option. Great to know!


i have had problems integrating apache spark using google storage. especially because s3 is directly supported in spark.

if you are api compatible with s3, could you make it easy /possible to work with google storage inside spark?

remember i may or may not run my spark on Dataproc.


You can use the Google cloud storage connector (https://cloud.google.com/hadoop/google-cloud-storage-connect...) which works with hadoop (and therefore spark).


What is your NAS box doing with S3/GCS ?


Remote backup (Synology). I've asked them more than once to directly support GCS, or even just to accept my damn patch ;).


Are you using Hyper Backup? That seems to support S3-compatible destinations, including GCS, at least in DSM 6.1 -

https://www.synology.com/en-us/knowledgebase/DSM/help/HyperB...


S3 applications can use any object store if they use S3Proxy:

https://github.com/andrewgaul/s3proxy


How about giving a timeline of when Australia will be launching? I see you're hiring staff, and have a "sometime 2017" goal on the site, but how about a date estimate? :)


Does GCS support events yet?


As Relay's chief competitor in this region, we of Windsong have benefited modestly from the overflow; however, until now we thought it inappropriate to propose a coordinated response to the problem.


What software are you using for your NAS box?


Classy parley. I'll allow it.


S3 is currently (22:00 UTC) back up.

The timeline, as observed by Tarsnap:

    First InternalError response from S3: 17:37:29
    Last successful request: 17:37:32
    S3 switches from 100% InternalError responses to 503 responses: 17:37:56
    S3 switches from 503 responses back to InternalError responses: 20:34:36
    First successful request: 20:35:50
    Most GET requests succeeding: ~21:03
    Most PUT requests succeeding: ~21:52


Thanks for taking the time to post a timeline from the perspective of an S3 customer. It will be interesting to see how this lines up against other customer timelines, or the AWS RFO.


Playing the role of the front-ender who pretends to be full-stack if the money is right, can someone explain the switch from internal error to 503 and back? Is that just them pulling s3 down while they investigate?


My guess based on the behaviour I've seen is that internal nodes were failing, and the 503 responses started because front-end nodes didn't have any back-end nodes which were marked as "not failing and ready for more requests". When Amazon fixed nodes, they would have marked the nodes as "not failed", at which point the front ends would have reverted to "we have nodes we can send traffic to" behaviour.


Could be anything. Most likely scenario is the internal error is a load shedding error and the 503s were when the system became completely unresponsive. If it was a configuration issue then it is more likely that it would have directly recovered rather than going 'internal error -> 503 -> internal error'.


503 is typically what we see when our proxy can't connect to the backend server. We usually get 500 with internal server error when we've messed up the backend server.

So it's likely that the first 500s were the backend for s3 failing, then they took the failing backends offline causing the load balancers to throw 503 because they couldn't connect to the backend.


S3 is not a monolithic architecture, Amazon is a strong proponent of Service Oriented Architecture for producing scalable platforms.

There are a number of services behind the front end fleet in S3's architecture that handle different aspects of returning a response. Each of those will have their own code paths in the front end, very likely developed by different engineers over the years. As ever, appropriate status codes for various circumstances are something that always seems to spur debate amongst developers.

The change in status code would likely be a reflection of the various components entering unhealthy & healthy states, triggering different code paths for the front end... which suggests whatever happened might have had quite a broad impact, at least on their synchronous path components.


[flagged]


Soundcloud recovering from this failure and S3 being operational are two separate issues. We use S3 and it will take us nominally an hour to recover after S3 went up, for example.

S3 has started working as of about 20 minutes ago, and things are running smoothly.


Thanks!


There are other Amazon services that were affected. For example, we're still not seeing auto scaling groups working correctly.


"[RESOLVED] Increased Error Rates

Update at 2:08 PM PST: As of 1:49 PM PST, we are fully recovered for operations for adding new objects in S3, which was our last operation showing a high error rate. The Amazon S3 service is operating normally."

https://status.aws.amazon.com/


oh the famous downvote for the smear campaign. just admit it.


You're getting downvotes because you don't understand that B being down is not an effective indicator of the status of A, even if B depends on A.


Think you're mistaken, I don't have downvote privileges!


Claiming a statement is false when it's demonstrably true is something that will likely get downvoted every time. It's misleading to others and fills the board with noise.


A piece of hard-earned advice: us-east-1 is the worst place to set up AWS services. You're signing up for the oldest hardware and the most frequent outages.

For legacy customers, it's hard to move regions, but in general, if you have the chance to choose a region other than us-east-1, do that. I had the chance to transition to us-west-2 about 18 months ago and in that time, there have been at least three us-east-1 outages that haven't affected me, counting today's S3 outage.

EDIT: ha, joke's on me. I'm starting to see S3 failures as they affect our CDN. Lovely :/


Reminds me of an old joke: Why do we host on AWS? Because if it goes down then our customers are so busy worried about themselves being down that they don't even notice that we're down!


Reminds me of an even older joke (from 80's or 90's):

Q: Why computers don't crash at the same time?

A: Because network connections are not fast enough.

(I think we are starting to get there)


These are both pretty good. Added to color fortune clone https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup


I'm getting the same outage in us-west-2 right now.


The dashboard doesn't load, nor does content using the generic S3 url [1], but we're in us-west-2 and it works fine if you use the region specific URL [2]. In practice this means our site on S3/Cloudfront is unaffected.

[1]: https://s3.amazonaws.com/restocks.io/robots.txt

[2]: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/restocks.io/robots.txt


Good catch. My bet is that because s3.amazonaws.com originally referred to the only region (us-east-1) the service that resolves the bucket region automatically is really hosted in us-east-1. I think AWS recommends using the region in the URL for that reason, however that is easier said than done I think. I would bet that a few of Amazon's services use the short version internally and are having issues because of it.


Seeing it in eu-west-1 as well. Even the dashboard won't load. Shame on AWS for still reporting this as up; what use is a Personal Health Dashboard if it's to AWS's advantage not to report issues?


Now it's in the PHD, backdated to 11:37:00 UTC-6. How could it take an hour to even admit that an issue exists? We have alerts set on this but they're useless when this late.


Same here, and it's 100% consistent, not 'increased error rates' but actually just fully down. I'd just stop working but I have a demo this afternoon... the downsides of serverless/cloud architectures, I guess.


Heh that "increased error rates" got a chuckle out of me, I guess 100% is technically an increase.


Well what if you'd hosted it on your hard drive and it crashed? It seems like the probability of either is similar nowadays.


The difference there is you can potentially do something about it, vs having to wait on an upstream provider to fix an issue for everybody.


"you can potentially do something about it" vs. "you have to do something about it"

Perspective is everything.


Grab different machine, git clone your repo, good to go.

What's the odds of the server with your repo and your own hard drive crashing at the same time?


Strangely, your comment made me read this entire post about working out probabilities.. http://www.statisticshowto.com/how-to-find-the-probability-o...

Quite interesting really!


If we assume that the events are largely uncorrelated+ then we are multiplying the probabilities and our chance of wipe out are far lower.

+I would suggest that for situations where the probability of my machine and github's/bitbucket's servers being down due to the same event would be events of such magnitude that I would not be worried about my project anymore being more focused on basic survival...


Our services in us-west-2 have been up the whole time.

I think the problem is globally accessible APIs are impacted. As others have noted, if you can use region/AZ-specific hostnames to connect, you can get though to S3.

CloudFront is faithfully serving up our existing files even from buckets in US-East.


S3 bucket creation was down in us-west-2, because it relied on us-east-1 (I expect that dependency will get fixed after this), but all S3 operations should have continued to function in us-west-2, other than cross-region replication from us-east-1.


IIRC the console for S3 is global and not region specific even though buckets are.


Also, cross-region replication is a new-ish thing: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-cross-region-replicatio...


Same outage in ca-central-1


I can confirm this as well.


Huh, I'm not seeing it on my us-west-2 services. Interesting.


My advice is: don't keep your eggs in one basket. AZs a localised redundancy, but as Cloud is cheap and plentiful, you should be using two or more regions, at least, to house your solution (if it's important to you.)

EDIT: less arrogant. I need a coffee.


But now you're talking about added effort. Multi-AZ on AWS is easy and fairly automatic, multi-region (and multi-provider) not so much. It's easy to say things like this, but people who can do ops are not cheap and plentiful.


The only difficult aspect of multi-region use is data replication, which I can confirm is a (somewhat) difficult problem. This issue was with S3 which has an option to automatically replicate data from the bucket's region to another one. It's a check box. A simple bit of logic in the application and you can move between regions with ease.

Even data replication has options for this, too.

And I work in Ops.


Well, you've explained how to do multi-region in S3. Now let's cover EC2, ELB, EBS, VPC, RDS, Lambda, ElastiCache, API Gateway, and all the other bits of AWS that make up my services. And then we can move on to failover application logic.


I picked out S3 as this issue is directly related to it, yet the solution is simple: turn on replication and have your application work with it (which is on the developers, not ops.)

EC2: why are you replicating EC2 instances or AMIs across regions? Why aren't you using build tools to automatically create AMIs for you out of your CI processes?

ELB: Eh? Why do I need ELBs to be multi-regional? I'm a little confused by this on, sorry.

EBS: My systems tend to be stateless, storing as much log, audit, or data in external systems such as RDS, DynamoDB, S3, etc. Storing things on the local system's storage is a bit risky, but if you have to there are disk replication solutions available. EFS comes to mind for making that easier. Backups also come to mind in the event of data loss.

VPC: Why does a VPC need to be cross regional? This one is also lost on me.

RDS: Replication is easy -- it's done for you. Convincing developers their application needs to potentially work with a backup endpoint to the data is harder than data replication problems at times. More often than not, it's simply a case of switching to a read-only mode whilst you recover the write copy of your RDS instance, but this is the role of the developers, not ops.

Lambda, ElastiCache, API Gateway... all these things aren't arguments against my original point: architect correctly. Yes it involves more work (from the developer's perspective, mostly), but more often than not in the event of a failure you're left head and shoulders above your nearest competition and left soaking up the profits as a result.

Based on your responses, however, I think we can safely agree to disagree and move on.

Have a great day! I hope you weren't too badly effected by the S3 outage!

EDIT: typo.


Gamache's point is that making your production environment cross-regional means setting up all those things in another region and managing them as well. It's not a tickbox.

Our webservers were hit by this outage. In order to make these cross-regional, I'd need to set up VPCs properly, security groups, instances, datastores (several databases), so on and so forth. I don't store anything on the local disk, but I'm not going to run a server in Europe hitting my db servers in us-east-1. AWS doesn't offer all the databases we use. Cloudformation isn't trivial to use once you get past the tutorial examples either.

Basically, your comment is a version of "you're holding it wrong!"


The US is made up of several regions. You don't have to leave the country to go multi-region, you only need to go west or east from your current location in the US.

Some solutions present more difficulties than others, that's for sure. From the limited information you've given me, your solution is far from being a unique situation that poses many difficulties.

CloudFormation in YAML format is pretty easy. I recommend Terraform, however, which is much nicer again for this kind of stuff. It makes it rather "trivial" to get a multi-region solution in place.

As for the database replication: I highly doubt the solutions you're using don't offer replication, and if they don't, and they're not some very esoteric, highly specialised engines, then I would replace them with something that does.

It reads to me as though your primarily contention point is your databases. Not an easy problem to solve, I'll admit, but not impossible, neither.


>EC2: why are you replicating EC2 instances or AMIs across regions?

Exactly to avoid single region outages?


I think point was that you shouldn't replicate but just deploy to both.


Two different vendors if you can afford it. It's a bit of a hassle though.


I like to stick to one, but I have seen some success stories with an AWS/GCE mix :-)

HashiCorp's Terraform makes it a lot easier to go multi Cloud, and abstracting away configuration of the OS and applications/state with Ansible makes the whole process a lot easier too.



It shouldnt be technically possible to lose S3 on every region, how did amazon screw this up so bad?


I believe the reports here are misleading: if you try to access your other regions through the default s3.amazonaws.com it apparently routes through us-east first (and fails), but you're "supposed to" always point directly at your chosen region.

Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud (and didn't test this, but some other comment makes that clear).


Amen. We setup our company cloud 2 years ago in US-West-2 and have never looked back. No outage to date.


If you have a piece of unvarnished wood handy...


Is us-east-2 (Ohio) any better (minus this aws-wide S3 issue)?


us-east-2 is brand new and us-east-1 is the oldest region. Any time there is an issue, it is almost always us-east-1. If possible, I would migrate out of us-east-1.


Probably valid, though in this case while us-west-1 is still serving my static websites, I can't push at all.


The s3 outage covered all regions.


Really? Even Australia? Can you provide evidence of this so I know for any clients that call me today? :)

EDIT: Found my answer. "Just to stress: this is one S3 region that has become inaccessible, yet web apps are tripping up and vanishing as their backend evaporates away." -- https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/28/aws_is_awol_as_s3_g...


That's a really good point!


Yup, same here. It has been a few minutes already. Wanna bet the green checkmark[1] will stay green until the incident is resolved?

[1] https://status.aws.amazon.com/


The red check mark is hosted on S3...


The truth is stranger than fiction.

https://twitter.com/awscloud/status/836656664635846656


"Care to share the code as an anti pattern?" brilliant.


Comment of the year.


Fact of the year.


In December 2015 I received an e-mail with the following subject line from AWS, around 4 am in the morning:

"Amazon EC2 Instance scheduled for retirement"

When I checked the logs it was clear the hardware failed 30 mins before they scheduled it for retirement. EC2 and root device data was gone. The e-mail also said "you may have already lost data".

So I know that Amazon schedules servers for retirement after they already failed, green check doesn't surprise me.


So just as a FYI the reason that probably happened to you is that the underlying host was failing. I am assuming they wanted to give you a window to deal with it but the host croaked before then. I've been dealing w/ AWS for a long long time and I've never seen a maintenance event go early unless the physical hardware actually died...


That what happens when cloud provider doesn't support live migration for VMs.


That's completely ridiculous, get some fucking RAID Amazon.

I order drives off newegg directly to my DC and I'm yet to lose data with the cheapest drives available in RAID10.


Yes, solving problems at your scale and AWS' are quite comparable.


but I never lost data off an usb stick how hard could it be!


Really?!?! Several times USB sticks (and USB HDs) failed on me and other people I work with.


Not saying my scale is the the same at all - but the fact they can't do something so simple that I can do it as a single individual is embarrassing at best.

Simple solutions to this do scale - Linode and DigitalOcean don't have such issues for example - and while they're not Amazon scale, they are quite large and I'd say they prove the concept.


EBS data is backed up in multiple redundant ways (using erasure encoding I think).

Local storage is not intended for permanent storage, and is more use at your own risk. That's also why most of the new EC2 instances don't even support local storage.

Availability =/= durability of course


EBS is incredibly expensive and slow, not really a good solution. It'd be nice if they offered a better local storage option.


Incredibly expensive and slow compared to what? A 500 GB SSD (gp2) costs $50/m, and has 1500 - 3000 IOPS. It's okay for most loads.

For higher performance, you can use

1. EBS Provisioned IOPS (kind of expensive)

2. Aurora (for DB use)

3. The new I3 instances (super fast local storage at a reasonable price.)


That's the cost of a new 500GB SSD per month! For the cost of three months' EBS storage and a couple of hours you could setup your own RAID array with a spare for backups and possibly get better uptimes than Amazon :P


Not to mention you'll get 3-5x better IOPS off a dedicated SSD.

I guess this just boils down again to Amazon not being cost effective enough for my use case in yet another way.


Actually, you can get way more than 3-5x better IOPS on your own SSD! Different types of storage have different types of trade-offs. EBS is great for some things, slow and overpriced for others...


Huh? What kind of 500 GB SSD costs $50? And again--500 GB on EBS is not stored on 500 GB of flash...they use erasure coding and distribute it over ~3x as much, roughly.

Oh, and good luck creating snapshots of your home RAID!


> Huh? What kind of 500 GB SSD costs $50?

Definitely not $50 to my knowledge but for ~$170 you can get a Samsung 850 EVO which is rated for 98k IOPS. They're fairly reliable drives and much, much faster than anything you'll get on EBS. You could be running that full 3x replication in less than a year of paying for EBS.

> Oh, and good luck creating snapshots of your home RAID!

LVM, ZFS and Btrfs all do snapshotting quite nicely. FreeNAS - commonly used for consumer grade NASes will automatically manage ZFS snapshots for you too. Amazon will sell you extra space to store snapshots, sure, but increasing the size of your devices usually solves that problem. And quite cost effectively as you can probably tell by now...


...and Dropbox can be replaced with SFTP and rsync. Can you roll your own? Sure. Will it work as reliably and effectively as EBS? Can I scale it easily? How many people are comfortable using snapshots on their own?


It's tried and true tech that any competent ops person can use quite easily. Been around much longer than EBS quite frankly.

Dropbox targets end users who don't have the knowledge required to use the alternative, if you're smart enough to use EBS you're probably smart enough to use ZFS snapshotting just as easily. Or could within a day or two. It's really not that hard.

Like I said, there are systems that pretty much manage the whole thing for you and just warn you when something is about to blow up like FreeNAS.


It could be replaced with Nextcloud

Shadow volume replication is entirely possible with several filesystems or Hot Copy kernel mod. Also LVM does snapshotting fairly easily

I may have got my prices a bit mixed up (I saw 120GB at Fry's for $60 last month) but my point stands.

Also why is discomfort such a big problem for folks? Learn stuff.


Not really that hard.

zfs snap tank/data@$(date '+Y%m%d')

zfs send tank/data@$(date '+Y%m%d') | zfs recv backup/data

advanced magic for off-system backup

zfs send tank/data@$(date '+Y%m%d') | ssh cheapdiskserver zfs recv tank/data


> 1500 - 3000 IOPS

So about as many as this SD card, and nothing compared to a real SSD.


In practice, it's actually fine for most purposes. It's equivalent to multiple striped 15K RPM magnetic disks, which used to be high-end enterprise storage a few years ago.

SD cards have much worse write IOPS.


> In practice, it's actually fine for most purposes.

It is, yes, but I wouldn't refer to it as comparable to an SSD.

> SD cards have much worse write IOPS.

Surprisingly not! Testing in ATTO I got read and write speeds that were almost identical, and a peak of 2000 IOps.


>It is, yes, but I wouldn't refer to it as comparable to an SSD.

EBS (gp2) is flash based, has far better performance than high end magnetic disks, with excellent latency and consistent performance. So, it's more comparable to SSD than anything else.

>Surprisingly not! Testing in ATTO I got read and write speeds that were almost identical, and a peak of 2000 IOps.

Really? Were you looking at 4K write? Typically that would be under 1 MB/s for an SD card.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013CP3MMM

http://i.imgur.com/PRoxVPM.png

It's a relatively high-quality SD card, unfortunately hampered by my reader's inability to use bus speed over 25MB/s.


Nice card! So about 1500 write IOPS at 4K. Performance might be worse (or better) at other queue depths though.


I think most people rely on EBS and are happy with it. Sure it depends on the use case, but I think it works for most use cases.


It's not just a RAID that can fail. And everyone who uses AWS should expect failures. You should build your infrastructure to handle such failures well.


They offer no RAID on local storage and only the expensive, IO restricted EBS as an alternative.


Yes, the only way a server can die is from non-raided disks.


Otherwise they should at least be providing customers their data back.


I think you misunderstood the local storage. It is not intended to permanently store data. It's a volatile storage like RAM.


We have a slack emoji for it called greenish. It's the classic AWS green checkmark with an info icon in the bottom. Apparently it's NOT an outage if you don't acknowledge it. It's called alt-uptime.


I really liked it. But when trying to add it to my HipChat group it failed to upload. Why? S3 outage, what an irony.


AWS internal lingo calls this the "green-i"


It's crazy how much better the communication (including updates and status pages) is of the companies that rely on AWS than AWS' communication itself.

https://status.heroku.com/incidents/1059


Blake Gentry gave a full accounting of Heroku's response process here - http://www.heavybit.com/library/video/every-minute-counts-co...

Amazon should take notes.


I feel for them. Imagine, 40 or 50 different engineering teams all responsible for updating their statuses. At this moment on the AWS status page I see random usage of the red, yellow, and green icons, even though all the status updates are "Increased error rates." What that tells me is that there's no unified communication protocol across the teams, or they're not following it. And just imagine what it's like being on the S3 team right now.

I notice even Cloudflare is starting to have problems serving up pages now.


Font Awesome went out for me for a bit, but they did a great job getting back up and keeping their users in the loop.

https://status.fortawesome.com/



These service health boards are more like advertisement page then actual status of the service.


I guess their bizarre thinking is something along the lines of: "unless we have proof that noone can access the service, we won't change the indicator from green to yellow.

Seriously: I don't understand why you guys stay with AWS.


Because you perceive public clouds only as virtual machine providers, that you can replace with other provider in two days. A detailed cloud migration consists of replacing some parts of your software to use managed services provided by a specific cloud provider, and AWS is still has the best service offerings IMHO. When you use these services carefully also you will see that AWS is very cheap and reliable enough. Outages like today's are happening in every platform and it is possible to mitigate them.

You can use Adwords as a self-service user. Without knowing so much of details you can run your ads but also you can bery easily ruin your budget. But many enterprise customers use it very differently than those users and they are extremely optimizing the cost. Cloud is the same. If you don't know how big customers use AWS, it is normal that you are surprised because AWS is still leading the market.

You say GCP is better than AWS. Which part is better? GCP does not have many services of AWS we benefit from. How can you compare totally different providers? You can only say AWS EC2 is worse than GCP. But you cannot compare whole platforms in one sentence.


(Sorry, I'm late to reply, but since you addended your comment you might still be listening...)

After spending a year evaluating both AWS and GCP (with an emphasis on their managed database services; both SQL and no-SQL) my general feeling is this:

"Microsoft Windows is to Unix as AWS is to GCP".

(Or perhaps closer to the truth: "VMS is to Unix as AWS is to GCP".)

Baically AWS services seem like they are badly designed by buerocratic mediocre engineers following some bureocratic template for "a service".

GCP feels a lot saner (both API- and UI/console-wise). I often got the feeling it's designed by people who:

a) are smart and well-rounded in terms of experiences. It does take cleverness and experience to design something elegant that is also useful.

b) take pride in their work (it does show)

(And then, as a bonus: It's cheaper!)


You talk about SQL and No-SQL as managed services and it shows that your experience is limited to a classical application consisting of virtual machines and some data storage. However these are not the only services offered by both platforms and currently AWS has a richer feature set. For example Lambda and its deep integration with whole AWS platform is the biggest game changer from my point of view. If we are talking about virtual machines and databases, I can accept this comparison. However we are talking about 30+ services, some of them are even not available somewhere else and solving serious business problems in production and at scale. It is very wrong to put everything into basket and compare. Maybe GCP has better pub/sub service and AWS has better object storage. These should be compared seperately. Answering to your question, why do we still stay at AWS, because it is solving our problems in the most cost effective way and with reduced complexity, we are happy with it.


You're probably assuming too much again :)

I specifically spent a lot of time on Lambda and found it quite annoying compared to GCP AppEngine. So much bureaucracy. Just this thing that you have to specifically register every single Lambda API call and its parameters using an interface built by non-thinking people.. Sheesh.

For on-demand processing I just want a single HTTP-ish entry point, like AppEngine provides. (That way I can I move my service between different providers, if I wanted to move away from e.g. AWS.)


Anyway, I just updated my HN profile with more details about my experience. Please visit it to judge if I might know what I'm talking about.


Sorry for endless number of typos and mistakes. Obviously I was sleepy while I was writing this.


> Seriously: I don't understand why you guys stay with AWS.

Personally I've been using it for ages and I know most services inside and out. They do suffer downtime in some regions occasionally, but it'd be too expensive at this point to move.

And who doesn't suffer downtime? You can't avoid it; you just need a plan to deal with it. For example, having a backup replica bucket in another region and the ability to quickly switch your CDN over would probably be a good idea here; that's what I did.

If you want to go further you can replicate your data to another cloud provider entirely and use low TTLs to switch to a backup CDN if your system is that mission-critical (in the event of a worldwide AWS failure doomsday scenario).

All systems will fail you and it's our responsibility as IT professionals to have a plan to mitigate this.


Low TTL on DNS entries might do more harm than good: if your DNS provider gets seriously DDoS, being able to rely on caches can save the day.

Anyway, I agree with your conclusion.


Sunk cost fallacy.

I do agree that we should all plan for failures.

However, I also think it's a sign of failure in planning and architecture foresight if it's too expensive to move away from a particular cloud provider.


The sunk cost fallacy is when you (irrationally) decide to stick with what you're doing purely because you've already spent a lot of resources on it. It doesn't apply when you've done an economic analysis and found out it doesn't make sense to swap.

There are plenty of cases where it just wouldn't make sense to switch after looking at the costs, opportunity costs, etc. For example, if his site makes him $10 a month, outages cost him $1 a month that could be mitigated by moving, and it would cost $1000 of labor to swap providers. (Depends on interest rates.)

Perhaps it was originally a failure to not have a plan to easily move from a provider, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that right now it may cost too many hours of work to justify the move.


It's not as though it would be impossible; our integration with AWS isn't that deep, it's not as though we use DynamoDB for our core data store or anything like that. But even migrating from one traditional datacenter to another isn't easy from an operational point of view.

There needs to be a clear financial win. Even taking into account the failures we've seen so far, I don't see a compelling reason to leave AWS.


(You're right, I used that term incorrectly.)

Still stand behind the other two points I made in that post though.


> I don't understand why you guys stay with AWS.

Who do you recommend instead (assuming in-house or Hetzner-equiv is out of reach)? Google Cloud? Azure? Rackspace?


Google Cloud if you're looking for something similar. It's just so much better and cheaper. I think a lot of the resistance here towards that kind of move is just because people are inherently lazy and they aren't paying the bill themselves.

(I'm guessing a relatively large part is also selfish attachment to the market leader because of employment reasons. I hate wasting money, both for myself and for my employer, so I don't really understand this kind of thinking - but I do understand how it could flourish in a venture capital-rich time/locale.)

I also recommend reading:

https://thehftguy.com/2016/06/15/gce-vs-aws-in-2016-why-you-...


Google Cloud doesn't exactly have the greatest reliability/uptime either.


https://status.cloud.google.com/summary tells a different story or do you have other information?

I have used GCP for some time without being affected from any incident.


I'm not sure what you mean. If anything that link underscores my point. GCE has absolutely had it's own catastrophic errors. Remember last April when ALL instances in ALL regions went down?

https://status.cloud.google.com/incident/compute/16007?post-...


At least Google has a post-mortem, at AWS everything would still show up green with some random note about 'increased error rates'.


While I agree that was a horrific outage for us, there's a big difference between no external connectivity for a few minutes (note: internal IPs still worked fine, as did access to APIs through that mechanism) and "ALL instances in ALL regions went down".

Disclosure: I work on Google Cloud (and wouldn't want to be an incident responder at AWS today...)


The GCP services are usually within their SLA target so I don't see the problem with the incidents. So you know what you buy and can take actions if you need a higher SLA for your application.


> so I don't see the problem with the incidents

All instances going down in all regions is an order of magnitude worse than a single service going down in a single region. You're deluding yourself if you think GCE is any more reliable than any other reputable cloud hosting platform.


That is a pretty awesome page.. way better than a page full of green icons, during an obvious outage... I like that they have writeups a few days after the incidents....


Google also doesn't have the best record for developer tools.


[flagged]


too soon


;)


GC's CDN doesn't cache files bigger than 4Mb. No Windows VMs. Bound to AWS for these 2 reasons.



As already mentioned, they do have Windows VM's but there are some caveats that indicate it's not fully baked yet. 1.) They require that each VM MUST have a public IP address so that Windows can talk to an activation server every 30 days. 2.) You cannot yet bring your own license.


Someone else already mentioned Windows VMs.

Looks like CDN has a 10MB limit:

https://cloud.google.com/cdn/docs/caching

(work at Google Cloud)


What about something like B2 from https://www.backblaze.com/ ?


S3 in a single region is based out of multiple data centres / availability zone, with data distributed so that the loss of a single availability zone won't impact either data availability or durability, even to the point of being comfortable with complete physical destruction of an AZ. The same applies for Azure, GCP etc.

B2 is based out of a single DC (or at least, was at launch and I don't see anything that suggests that has changed?) You've got to decide what's most important to you. Data persistence or $$$.


OVH


Bad idea there, support is horrible.


OVH doesn't even want to take my money to keep my server running. Their auto-billing process is busted and when it goes wrong they just delete your server.


That's not what I've seen. I misconfigured my auto-billing and got paged in the middle of the night by nodes mysteriously disappearing, but they released those machines minutes after my CC went through. Not that I'm a big fan of OVH but if you design your system to allow for failure you can't match their value for money.


What is your last datapoint on that?

The last year or two has seen a remarkable improvement according to those customers of mine that host there.


I think it's more, "if the service can't do what people need it to do, that's a problem; if the service cluster gets wedged hard enough to stop responding to the requests of our monitoring system, that's a failure."

Which would make sense (and is sorta-kinda a best-practice) if Amazon wrote services such that they "crashed early"—but instead they're seemingly written so the backend lock up and be rendered completely useless at "doing its job" but will continue to run just fine.

Either of those two design decisions is potentially a good thing on its own, but they need to be considered in light of one-another if you want your status page to make any sense. If you want to report cluster failures, code your clusters to actually fail. If you want to keep your clusters up, write your monitoring checks as whole-stack acceptance tests.


> Seriously: I don't understand why you guys stay with AWS.

You don't seem to have enough experience to comment on the issue.


Please visit this comment sub-tree:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13765786


That is a regurgitation of your opinion without any facts.

Comparing technology and saying "it seems" or "i feel" isn't really a good argument to convince me one way or the other.


> Seriously: I don't understand why you guys stay with AWS.

I tried them all and Amazon is still the best.


Postgres on RDS


Come to NEXT in a week! :).


Any chance UDF iterators for Cloud Bigtable are in the works?

Being able to run distributed D4M/GraphBLAS queries in Cloud Bigtable would be killer.

"From NoSQL Accumulo to NewSQL Graphulo: Design and Utility of Graph Algorithms inside a BigTable Database" https://arxiv.org/pdf/1606.07085.pdf


I'm seeing green checkmarks across the board, but they just added a notice to the top of the page:

> Increased Error Rates

> We are investigating increased error rates for Amazon S3 requests in the US-EAST-1 Region.


I guess sub-1% to 100% failure rate is technically an "increase".


I guess file uploads and downloads are technically "API calls".


the worst thing is when your system cant handle these "increased error rates" as your control plane cascades failure due to something like this....

The worst "increased error rate" problem I had was when the API was failing and my autoscale system couldnt deal and launched thousands of instances because it couldnt tell when instances were launched (lack of API access) and the instances pummelled the fuck out of all other parts of the system and we basically had to reboot the entire platform....

Luckily, amazon is REALLY forgiving with respect to costs in these (and actually most) circumstance....


recalls numerous times

Yes. Yes they are. Thankfully.


I always joke that if one of those statuses ever went to red, it means the zombie apocalypse has begun.


The number of non-green marks is the number of ICBMs currently in flight towards an AWS data center.


The good news is, if Amazon's services are marked as offline, you're allowed to use Amazon Lumberyard to control nuclear power plants.


In case anyone wants to see what mysterious the red icon looks like: https://status.aws.amazon.com/images/status3.gif

At best when there are problems (not like now I guess) I will see the "note" green icon https://status.aws.amazon.com/images/status1.gif


I've heard (on the Fnord new show on the most recent CCC congress, so take it with a grain of salt and a bucket of humor) that Amazon's TOS are more or less void when a Zombie Apocalypse breaks out.

They had some convoluted but fairly specific wording in their TOS, whoever wrote must have had a lot of fun.


From https://aws.amazon.com/service-terms/

> 57.10 Acceptable Use; Safety-Critical Systems. Your use of the Lumberyard Materials must comply with the AWS Acceptable Use Policy. The Lumberyard Materials are not intended for use with life-critical or safety-critical systems, such as use in operation of medical equipment, automated transportation systems, autonomous vehicles, aircraft or air traffic control, nuclear facilities, manned spacecraft, or military use in connection with live combat. However, this restriction will not apply in the event of the occurrence (certified by the United States Centers for Disease Control or successor body) of a widespread viral infection transmitted via bites or contact with bodily fluids that causes human corpses to reanimate and seek to consume living human flesh, blood, brain or nerve tissue and is likely to result in the fall of organized civilization.


First the fall of human civilization has to be a real threat per the TOS so not sure they'll care.

Second, I know the lawyer and yes he had fun.


Then I guess it has begun, the page is now showing red. I'd put a picture on imgur but it's not loading.


http://downdetector.com/status/aws-amazon-web-services looks like a reasonable alternative place to check/report downtime.


I just check Twitter, since Amazon's status is always a lie. My personal dashboard is still showing no problems. It's bad enough that the main public status is always green even when there's clearly a problem, but you'd think they could at least make the private status accurate.


Which is coincidently down.


Maybe they are hosted on S3 facepalm or maybe they just got a surge in traffic


downdetectordown.com ?


yep, page won't load.


Gah. It was up 3 minutes ago. Anyone have any suspicion this is another ddos episode? I saw that SO was down last night too: https://twitter.com/StackStatus/status/836450836322516992


Pretty confident that isn't it. S3 was returning InternalErrors for 22 seconds before it started timing out and/or returning 503s to all my requests.

I'd bet that something broke (causing InternalError responses) and then nodes started marking themselves as failed (causing the timeouts and 503s soon after).


I want to see the botnet capable DDoSing S3. That would be something.


Apparently, that's down too. Sigh.


So, global S3 outage for more than an hour now. Still green, still talking about "US East issue". I'm amazed.


It doesn't appear to be global; my app in eu-west-1 appears unaffected.

It's possible that the console won't work however as I believe that's served from us-east-1.


My site hosted on S3 is also running.


Looks like they have fixed the issue with their health dashboard now.

From https://status.aws.amazon.com/ : Update at 11:35 AM PST: We have now repaired the ability to update the service health dashboard. The service updates are below. We continue to experience high error rates with S3 in US-EAST-1, which is impacting various AWS services. We are working hard at repairing S3, believe we understand root cause, and are working on implementing what we believe will remediate the issue.


There was an alert on the personal health dashboard[1] a second ago, it said S3 Operational issue in us-east-1 but when I tried to view the details it showed an error.

Then I refreshed and the event disappeared altogether.

[1] https://phd.aws.amazon.com/phd/home?region=us-east-1#/dashbo...


Same here. But it is in the general status dashboard: http://status.aws.amazon.com/


Still green now, 8 minutes in.


I've had a few non-Amazon providers tell me AWS things are not working in the last 5 minutes, no note from Amazon though.

Nice.


Just sent out a notice to our customers via our status page. I really wanted to be able to add a link back to AWS detailing the issue but that's a pipe dream I suppose.


... still green



Looks like his personal site isn't loading... :)


Yup, it is indeed hosted with Amazon.



Just went yellow

Edit: nevermind


Did it? Still fields of green for me.


While keeping the status green for s3, they have at least put up a notice at the top:

Increased Error Rates

We are investigating increased error rates for Amazon S3 requests in the US-EAST-1 Region.


Yeah I just now saw that. Probably regional cache clearing or something.


Still green for me


Just went yellow

Increased Error Rates

We are investigating increased error rates for Amazon S3 requests in the US-EAST-1 Region.

https://status.aws.amazon.com/


Check individual services ...

Amazon Simple Storage Service (US Standard) Service is operating normally

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