Man, the comments here are harsh! Let's atleast show some sympathy for support of his parents and his family. I'm sure the word devastation won't even describe the pain and fear that they may be going through. My hearts and prayers goes out to his family, really wish him a quick and safe return.
There can be sympathy for the loved ones, that said, the discussion does remind me of similar discussions regarding of the teenager arrested for theft and vandalism in Singapore in the 90s [1]. Outrage over him being caned.
I'm sorry, but travelers to a foreign country need to be at least cognizant of local customs (read the section in a travel book before going), and if they break the rules, expect to face consequences.
We could really use caning to discipline juvenile offenders. Nothing like a good ass whooping to teach kids right from wrong. Unfortunately, grounding kids only work for those within the safety nets of middle class. It is not enough nor is it realistic to threaten to take away a child's things when there's nothing to take away because of poverty.
There is the possibility the excessive sentence is to make him into in to a negotiation pawn. NK now has one more pawn to play whenever something comes up with the US [perh. by extension JP]
I think the logic might be slightly on the guy's side.
My take is NK will make sure he kept in a good conditions, possibly exposed to some made-up farmers views playing "hard labor prisoners" to make sure he will eventually report that no atrocities are taking place and with eventual return already planned for him on a horizon.
Not to say that actual NK citizen's lifetime for equal "offense" will likely be drastically shorter.
Letting US citizen to die in NK is not going to have a healthy consequences for "the leader" and he realizes this pretty well.
I mostly agree, but can't see much evidence of Kim Jong-un being kept on a short leash by the West. Pyongyang launches 40-meter, 8000 km Taepodong missiles for funsies with very little international reprimand. I just hope this matter is dealt careful diplomacy by the US.
A couple of those phrases just didn't sound right, as if they weren't picked by a native speaker. "...their treatment of severe criminals like myself and of their fair and square legal procedures in the DPR Korea"
As well as how awkwardly he walked in and bowed. Perhaps that's how people of the DPRK bow, but I've never seen that before.
dont we have a couple teenagers and several adults imprisoned....indefinitely...without any charges...at gitmo? why such outrage at NK but none at what our own govt. has been engaged in for over a decade..
I thought people locked up at gitmo are terrorists who wanted to kill people. This guy on the other hand tried to steal a poster. I can't even fathom how you are trying to draw parallel between the two cases.
> I thought people locked up at gitmo are terrorists who wanted to kill people.
If only there were some kind of open forum, or even a closed forum where the records of same are made public, where the government could present evidence in favor of this assertion, and the accused could defend themselves against it in kind. We could even mandate that they be set free, should they prove themselves innocent, or that they be required to serve a defined prison term, should they not.
What a more just world we might live in, where such privileges were granted to everyone, regardless of how grievous the crimes they were accused of might be. Oh well.
Exactly. For all we know about the people in Gitmo and the legitimacy of their sentences, they might as well be a bunch of very unlucky poster thieves.
It's not comparable at all. Posters on the street are seen as being disposable in most parts of the world, and it's hard to imagine being arrested for, say, pulling down an Obama campaign poster and taking it home. Drug trafficking and hunting large predators are pretty much illegal everywhere, on the other hand.
> it's hard to imagine being arrested for, say, pulling down an Obama campaign poster and taking it home
It's actually funny you mention campaign posters specifically - because yes, you can get in very serious legal trouble for taking down campaign signs in certain states.
Source: I know people who took down opposing campaign signs for the opposing candidate. Fun times were not had, except perhaps by the lawyers.
Oh, that's a good point. I was just imagining a fan taking a poster home for personal use, but that sort of thing could easily fall under campaign laws.
Except that "North Korea" isn't "most part of the world". Even a basic five-minute readout on any travel wiki would tell you that. This is a country that will send your whole family to slave labour if you remotely suggest something that might be regarded as against their supreme leader.
So, on one hand I understand that people visiting foreign countries are expected to follow the laws of that country. Plenty of tourists have been severely punished (or worse, executed) in places like Singapore and Indonesia for drug offences. Of all places you'd expect punishment for vandalism, NK certainly seems the most likely place.
I think the real concern is the disproportionate response to the crime. Which, may in part be; 1. both a deterrent for others, 2. a show of force against the US, 3. something which forces the US to reduce some of its embargos.
So, pity the fool and hope that something diplomatic can be done.
I find it interesting the article uses "exchange for money" instead of "sell". It's as if the author is bending over backwards to make us more sympathetic to the student.
His Wikipedia page uses similar language with more detail:
"On February 29, 2016 he confessed to stealing a piece of North Korean propaganda from his hotel's staff-only section to take back to the United States as a "trophy" for someone willing to recompense him with a $10,000 reward."
Pretty crazy to see people here justifying this ridiculous sentence for something that may not have even been done on purpose. What is wrong with some of you?
Seriously. It feels like some of the commenters here are from the DPRK itself. Do you really trust what the North Koreans are saying? He could've just been a kid who wanted a souvenir and now he's going to an internment camp for 15 years. Poor guy :-(
We're not going to really know what happened there until he's out. But the question did remind me of an old Polish movie ending in a scene where a guy tries to fix a broken flag and the police stops him for breaking it. (https://youtu.be/34OcRxapLY0?t=10m10s "citizen, are you taking down national flag? papers please") NK publishes a lot of lies. Let's not rely on them for judging people.
On the downside it's not nice for the student and a pain for US negotiators trying to get him out. On the other hand it may help throw some light on the issues of the 150,000–200,000 prisoners incarcerated in various prison camps, who don't get the press coverage.
So am I supposed to feel bad for Otto? We all know NK is a disaster of human rights, but hey fuck it, this kids thinks he's gonna prove a point by taking down a propaganda poster? This is lazy activism. Congrats, you prover your point. Meanwhile, we now need to spend real diplomatic points figuring out how to get you free'd all while you rot in some NK hell hole. By the way, nobody, or at least almost nobody will ever remember what you did.
You are supposed to feel bad, because even if what he allegedly did is stupid, the sentencing is not in any way proportionate to the action.
And that's assuming he really did what North Korea says he did. It's not the first time they've made up charges, or trumped up benign accidents into intentionally malicious acts coordinated by the US Gov.
Someone who was allegedly there when the kid did it commented on a thread yesterday. I doubt the NK government would be posting propaganda on HackerNews of all places, but hey, you never know.
On a completely tangential note, I wanted to say that in a system where we expect to probabilistically catch people, a $1000 penalty for a $1000 crime cannot rationally deter people in cases where the crime is "worth" something. You have to charge people a disproportionate penalty to discourage people.
On the other hand, a society with omnipresent cameras that catches people almost 100% of the time can penalize proportionally.
That's the motive ascribed to him by the DPRK, a confession they extracted while he was detained. They routinely extract false confessions of "plots to overthrow the state" and the like. So this confession is worthless.
We probably can't know what he actually did, or why he did it. The incident could even be made from whole cloth.
If he actually took down a poster; the description comes from the NK news agency. It seems more likely that he did something than that NK just decided to detain some random tourist, but there may be details missing.
Why isn't it as likely that they want a hostage to use as leverage? Accusing him of doing something insanely idiotic would give plausible deniability of the actual purpose.
I've always found it interesting how US citizens can travel to NK, but not Cuba. I do realize things are changing with travel to Cuba but there are still restrictions
"can travel to NK" should be read as "can travel to NK without special permission from the US government."
You didn't need permission from the US per se to go to Cuba. You needed permission to contribute to the Cuban economy. If you were in a boat, entered Cuban waters, sailed around Havana harbor, and left without paying any sort of fees, then I don't think there was need for permission.
It's possible to get a travel exemption that allows per diem expenditures. The details depend on the type of exemption. See http://www.usacubatravel.com/restriction.htm . One of them is "Specific licenses for religious organizations", which is almost certainly what that church applied for in order for its members to travel to Cuba.
These restrictions are changing this week, I believe. I don't know the latest status.
HN really, really dislikes college kids, especially the globe trotting outgoing ones. I know because I fall in that camp of haters sometimes. Totally withhold judgement in this case, though, since we know almost no facts.
Wait, what? Why would any politician give this dude a second thought? They certainly don't mind incarcerating dudes who steal from the government here, why would they care about NKBK incarcerating dudes who steal from the government there? The fact that of the two politicians you mention, I can't predict which will do the stupid saber-rattling thing, seems to illustrate Trump's point, if I may be forgiven for steelmanning such into existence. (I voted for Bernie today, but I see why others vote for Trump.)
This guy is a total fuck-up, no doubt. Many Americans are, though, and I don't think that merits 15 years at hard labor. Especially since part of the reason the North Koreans are doing this is likely because of international politics.
