I think a more accurate statement is “Israel infiltrated a supply chain to sell IEDs to, possibly, Hezbollah”. These explosives went off in public places and killed random civilians.
The only thing I’ve learned here is that securing the supply chain of consumer goods is more important than ever.
On the surface this is just another callous comment but you are making a few dangerous implications here:
1. Gaza is not as bad as Hamburg (for which no proof was provided)
2. Gaza has to be as bad as Hamburg for it to be called a genocide
3. You want Israel to make Gaza look like Hamburg ‘43
4. The historical precedent (without even getting into land occupation) of movements justifies a genocide.
I’ll try to answer my following research questions:
If Palestinians want a state so badly, why didn’t they accept one in 1948?
In the following decades, when Gaza was Egyptian, the West Bank was Jordanian and the Golan heights Syrian, why didn’t their Arab brothers give them their own state?
Where were the Palestinians in ‘67 when these Arab leaders decided to attack Israel, got a bloody nose and created the mess we’re in today?
Where were the Palestinians in the 90s, when Arafat could have given them their own state with East Jerusalem as their capital?
Where were the demonstrations, streets filled with crowds, demanding peace and their own state?
My history and just observing current events with my eyes are telling me that instead of making their state a reality as they could have multiple times, Palestinians are weirdly obsessed with the existence of Israel as a whole and streets are only filled with cheering crowds if Israeli hostages or bodies are paraded through them.
Meanwhile, Israel has two Supreme Court judges of Arab descent, one of whom sent two Jewish Prime Ministers to prison, the recent head of Israel’s oldest and largest bank was an Israeli Arab, Arab citizens are part of the national soccer team, the police, the medical services, the judiciary, the list goes on and on.
Looks like it’s the same in Israel as the rest of the world: If you’re not hellbent on killing your neighbor because you discriminate them based on their creed, looks, whatever, people welcome you to take part in society.
We don’t need to label a conflict as genocide to recognize the urgency of ending it. Armed conflicts, regardless of labels, demand immediate efforts to stop the violence and protect civilians. The focus should be on saving lives, not semantics.
Ending this conflict should start with demanding that Hamas abandon its illegitimate and destructive aims. They must lay down their weapons, release all hostages, and dismantle their oppressive regime. Hamas’s actions and ideology stand in the way of peace for both Palestinian and Israeli civilians
How can they hate their methods if far worse methods are being used against them?
Besides, do you think someone in a war zone has the capability to support, or better yet, donate to a militant group when they’re on the brink of starving?
I don’t think anyone uses a saying to back claims over land.
In any case, your comment seems to suggest that Palestinians /could not/ have come up with this phrase, and had to resort to stealing the occupier’s, which is wildly misleading.
In any case, the origin of the phrase is ascertain.
This is pretty apologist. The PLO started using it while referring to Likud, so it was their version of taking it back, in the 1980s.
I'm sure they could have come up with it themselves had they wished.
But whitewashing it as just a saying on Israel's part, but a threat on Palestine's... given that multiple members of Likud, often in official capacities, openly espouse and encourage exactly that, taking more land from Palestine.
1. I'm going to state outright that I don't think rounding up Palestinian civilians and shooting them is happening. Israel does a lot of things I disagree with and there are, I'm sure, many war crimes being committed, but rounding people up and shooting them is far, far away from anything anyone has any proof for (or any reason to think is happening).
2. While you seem to imply that your article proves the opposite, it doesn't - it just shows Palestinians being "rounded up", or as the IDF says, arrested. There is no reason to think (that I saw) that this is anything other than a mass arrest of Palestinians, possibly terrorists, possibly civilians that are sometimes arrested and later released.
If you think literally any picture of the IDF arresting many people is proof that those people are killed, then I understand why you're sure that the IDF is going around killing Palestinian civilians.
Huh. The bar of proof for the IDF to be rounding up and killing people is so high, but you’re quick to suggest that the people they round up are likely terrorists.
> Huh. The bar of proof for the IDF to be rounding up and killing people is so high, but you’re quick to suggest that the people they round up are likely terrorists.
Yes. This exactly captures my thoughts. The bar for proving that the IDF is committing this kind of crime is pretty high. And yes, I think the IDF is generally trying to arrest terrorists, hence my thinking that if they detained a bunch of people, they are possibly terrorists. I think what is likely happening is that a bunch of people were arrested because they were in a zone where the IDF can't know if they are militants or not, they will be investigated, and most will be released. That's what almost always happens.
You, on the other hand, seem to think that if the IDF is detaining a bunch of people, it's in order to mass execute them, despite there being no actual evidence of this ever happening. There are a lot of problems people have with that the IDF is doing, and there's a lot of credible reasons to think war crimes are being committed, but as far as I know, mass detaining and execution of random civilians is not something anybody says is actually happening.
Once again, a lot of insinuation with very little actual proof. The IDF alleged, and there are credible reasons to think it's true, afaik, that those are just Palestinian graves, not people killed by the IDF.
Look, I understand we have different prior beliefs about what is likely here. For an Israeli, I am relatively far left and relatively distrustful of both the IDF and the Israeli government. I think that much of the conduct of Israel is deeply immoral, very possibly war crimes, and I'm fairly certain that multiple cases of war crimes have been committed by some soldiers, though not as a matter of policy.
That all said, the things you (and many people) are saying are very implausible. Israel is so often portrayed as evil with absolutely no merit, that Israelis barely pay attention to it anymore, which is not good for anyone.
Israel rounding up and shooting people is absolutely real. The whole of Gaza is basically a open air concentration camp where the Israelis control water and electricity and which part gets bombed on which day basically depends on the mood of the IDF.
You are depicting yourself as on the "progressive" side of the Israeli society. If your view is representative, it's evident your country is irreversibly running down the slippery Nazi road and it does not bode well for Israel.
Just to be clear, you think this, not because we disagree about values, but because we disagree on facts. You think one thing is true, I think another - and therefore, I am proof that Israel is "running down the slippery Nazi road".
I could be wrong about things. I believe I am more informed, and better informed, than most people I interact with online, both in terms of the amount of attention I pay to this topic, and because I'm literally closer to everything that is happening, can talk with IDF soldiers regularly, etc. Nevertheless, me being (in my mind) more informed doesn't mean I can't be wrong.
But neither you, nor anyone else, has ever actually shown me real reasons to think I am wrong. Others in this thread have shown pictures of the IDF detaining hundreds of people, and just assume that it's proof that the IDF is rounding up and shooting people, despite this being a claim that no one is actually making, not even the people who are literally accusing Israel of genocide in court.
So yes, I think I am more correct about the facts. And apparently, disagreeing about factual statements is proof that I am somehow evil?
Are you trying to run damage control here or something? I’m not sure why the GHM is being centered in this thread rather than the people who have been killed.
I agree with what bhouston said. With so much destruction and death happening (even right now), I suspect it will take very long to get an accurate count.
The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent.
> The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent.
If you're referring to my comment, you misunderstood. It's not "more damaging" -- it's that the two are highly correlated, and that damage to infrastructure and shelter is indicative of the "war on noncombatants" nature of this conflict. We don't know how many deaths there are, but we can see with our own eyes how the entire territory is being rendered unfit for habitation.
You agree with which part? Hopefully not the part about only counting hospital deaths, which was inaccurate (I'm sure it was an honest mistake). Not trying to minimize the suffering that's happening, but it's important to have our facts straight when genocide accusations are being tossed around.
There are indeed lots of bodies buried under the rubble, and lots of bodies that are unrecognisable. Not sure about the hospital part, but I recall the process for identifying a dead body to be fairly involved
The only thing I’ve learned here is that securing the supply chain of consumer goods is more important than ever.