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Treat Depression with the Fisher Wallace Stimulator? (fisherwallace.com)
16 points by evilsimon on Jan 13, 2015 | hide | past | favorite | 25 comments



> Stimulates the Brain to Produce Serotonin

except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISptt3CRAqc

the device may have some effect as placebo but if that's what you're going for, there are many other cheaper alternatives


> except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt

I'd hesitate to say that. First, treatment and cause are obviously not the same thing: increasing serotonin levels in a person and that making their depression 'go away' does not mean that low serotonin levels was the original cause for the depression. So in that sense, there isn't really a "serotonin model of depression"--we're talking about treatments and if they're effective. It's also true that for a lot of mild/moderate depression (which can still be serious in terms of suicide risk) SSRIs do not do hugely better than placebo, although they do perform on average better than placebo (~20%). However, for the more severe cases of unipolar major depressive disorder, SSRIs (and other antidepressants, for that matter) are significantly more effective than placebo.

It's also reasonable to point out that the serotonin system likely has an effect on bipolar depression, given the pretty convincing evidence that SSRIs can induce full blown mania in bipolar patients--even those who have not had a full manic episode before (only hypomanic ones).

Basically: it's complex. There are other confounding factors, too, such as lower serotonin levels being linked with aggression and impulsivity (and suicide) even in patients who don't report or show any depressive symptoms. So there might also be non-'it cures depression' arguments for SSRIs as preventatives, although there isn't a lot of research that I've read into that in particular.

This isn't an argument for this device in particular, though--my bullshit detector is being set off pretty rapidly by the site and claims.

Edit: some clarifications, rewordings.


Having just watched the linked video, it sounds like there is only a clinically (as opposed to statistically) significant difference between SSRI's and placebos for the extreme end of severe depression.

One of the interesting points the speak made was: The difference in response recovery rate between studies where the patients know they will receive an anti-depressant (drug vs. drug) and studies where they know they may recieve a placebo (drug vs. placebo) is bigger than the difference in recovery rate between drug and placebo. He then points out that due to side effects, patients are fairly reliably able to determine whether they are on a placebo or on an anti-depressant.

When discussing the equivalent efficacy of SSRIs and SSREs he says: "Were there any truth in the serotonin model of depression, and I don't know any responsible researcher in the area who still contends there is. (It's only in marketing where you still see that talked about) Where there any truth to that, SSRE's should not help people recover from depression, it ought to make them depressed" Link to time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISptt3CRAqc#t=1865

If that is correct, I think it might be valid to claim that " that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven" although I think "beyond a shadow of a doubt" seems hyperbolic. It might be also be argue that "the serotonin model of treating depression" might be clearer.


I mean, the often cited model of depression as a serotonin 'deficiency'--e.x. "I'm depressed because I don't have enough serotonin" is definitely not supported by the science/literature that I'm familiar with. It does seem to have embedded itself in the popular mind, but if it was the case you would see patients with depression having abnormally low levels of serotonin, which isn't, to my knowledge, substantiated--the studies I've read didn't, as I recall, show a significant correlation between serum serotonin levels and mood. Low levels of serotonin do correlate with other things, though. (impulsivity, suicide risk)

The serotonin system having an effect on mood, though, or SSRIs as treatments for depression: that's an entirely different realm. They do seem to be much less effective on people who are on the minor/moderate end of the spectrum, and are definitely less effective than they were once advertised as being. There are a lot of reasons (aforementioned side effects, effectiveness of various types of therapies, prevalence of environmental effects in many people's depression) to try other options than SSRIs if you aren't severely depressed--but the clinical evidence for their efficacy in treating severe depression isn't really arguable either.

As a side note, there's some fairly recent research from the middle of last year (see these for the summary version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuptake_enhancer) that shows that the only drug ever released as an SSRE probably isn't effective because of that action (if it even is an SSRE--see the second link).


> except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt

Serious? Man, that would probably piss a lot of people off. Is this like air quotes "disproven" or a pretty solid actual seal of peer-reviewed disproval?


SSRIs are, across many meta-analyses, pretty much exactly as effective as placebo—and, insofar as placebo itself is pretty effective, it's been found to be because structured attention and the ritual of consuming medicine are themselves somewhat effective treatments for depression.

Other lines of counter-evidence exist, including that there are drugs that stimulate other neurotransmitters that help with depression, that there are drugs that lower serotonin that help with depression, that there's no coherent explanation for how serotonin's main effect (neurogenesis) would actually lead to modulating depression, etc.

Academia seems focused on the role of the NMDA receptor now, but it'll likely be another red herring too.

I recommend reading http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/05/chronic-psychitis/ just to get clear on how much of what we're doing is repeatedly picking correlated symptoms and assuming they're the cause.


Given that it's a YouTube link I'm going to go with not peer-reviewed.


...and you would be wrong. The papers he references in his talk are peer reviewed. The lecture, of course, is not :)


> cheaper alternatives

As a side note, regarding placebos, the more expensive ones often work better than the cheaper ones. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304173339.ht...


not disagreeing with you but there's quite a lot of room between $0.00 and $700

you don't always need the most expensive placebo, just something which is deemed to have value and not free or without effort

for example, saline solution which 'burns' a little when injected is more effective than simply injecting pure H2O, so in the sense that it generates slight discomfort it is not 'free'


Does it make me paranoid that a red flag for me is that this site seems to be trying extremely hard to look legitimate?

  * BBB seal
  * "FDA cleared"
  * Harvard and NYU name drops
  * CBS, Fox, Wall Street journal


It's 99% the BBB seal, I think, which is basically a membership of people who pay to get that certificate. It's entirely meaningless. It's right up there with the "NORTON SECURE" certificates you see all over the place on sites that have no idea what they're doing.

Frankly, though, this is a medical device, and I want all the resources I can find on how effective it is. It'd be far more worrying not to have "FDA cleared" on it, for example.


No. The whole site screams "And on the next Dr. Oz ..."


That's a really depressing piece of industrial design for $699


"20 minutes twice a day"

Or you could spend that time exercising, which costs less and has other benefits.


If you're depressed, you have to start with getting out of bed. Exercise is not likely to be adopted by depressed people who have sought help.


Someone depressed is not going to exercise, it's just not going to happen.


We really need a specific term for "thing that gets you well enough to be able to follow the regular advice people give."

This is technically the meaning of "crutch", but somehow that has acquired a negative connotation. Maybe something like "bootstrapping treatment"—something that allows you to pull yourself up to the regular treatments.


This is not a new device, just a new re-branding of an existing CES device:

"Invented by brilliant engineers Saul and Bernard Liss in the 1980's, the Fisher Wallace Stimulator® received FDA clearance in 1991 for the treatment of insomnia, anxiety, depression and pain. "

"After Dr. Liss passed away in 2006 at the age of 84, Charles Fisher and Martin Wallace purchased the patents to the device and named it the Fisher Wallace Stimulator®."


What I want to know is, by what method is it stimulating my brain? Is it just a vibrator?


> The device delivers mild electrical stimulation to the brain through sponge electrodes placed above the sideburns. When used on the head, the device has been shown in medical studies to stimulate the production of neurochemicals, such as serotonin, GABA and endorphins, which are responsible for improving mood and sleep and suppressing chronic pain.


In other words—given that it's attached to your temples—it probably just gives you a bit of Electrical Stimulation Therapy that relaxes the jaw muscles running through the area, thus somewhat alleviating the subclinical TMJ most people have, and thus temporarily eliminating the resultant low-level chronic headaches people with TMJ get. This would feel good; feeling good releases endorphins.

(This is also why people massaging your temples makes some headaches go away. Those headache are TMJ.)



pretty sure that's a stud detector


holds device to self

... Yep, you're right.




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