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> the right claims fraud

So does the left every time Trump wins.

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This is not comparable. A couple groups on the far left is not the same as the leader of the party. I don’t see any major figure on the left: Bernie, Obama, AOC, Biden, Hillary, Pelosi etc claiming fraud.

> Hillary Clinton dismissed President Trump as an “illegitimate president” and suggested that “he knows” that he stole the 2016 presidential election in a CBS News interview to be aired Sunday.

From https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum..., among literally hundreds of other instances claiming the election was stolen, rigged, Russianed, whatever.


FWIW I believe Hillary actually knew in detail what Trump was doing (and what Trump Jr was doing) to funnel influence from Russia in the 2016 campaign that was obviously dubious (and Trump knew, else "Russia, if you're listening" would not have happened; that was a combination of deflection and projection).

We also know — despite what Trump says — the Mueller report indicated that Russian influence happened and that the Trump campaign welcomed it, that the Trump administration misled and blocked the investigation (including through the use of shady defence agreements).

We knew in real time, in fact, that Paul Manafort worked for free for Trump while being paid off by pro-Russian Ukrainians and in that time got the RNC to change the election platform language about providing offensive weapon capability to Ukraine (something that has proved difficult to get the subsequent administrations to do).

So there was a lot of murky stuff.

But:

My feeling is that Clinton was mostly in shock that the electorate was stupid enough to fall for an obvious huckster and con-man anyway, and so she believed the influence must have succeeded because the outcome was so wildly depressing.

I personally think Trump's second win put away the notion that overt Russian influence is necessary to get Americans to elect someone who so obviously adores Vladimir Putin in ways that are incredibly visible; they are ignorant enough to do it without help.


It's very much on record that the Trump campaign reached out to the Ukraine to see if they'd dig up dirt on Hunter Biden and the Biden campaign in general, and that's what Clinton is referring to.

Unless of course you think incumbent leaders should be able to use foreign intelligence services as a part of their campaign strategy to attack their oppoosition?


> that's what Clinton is referring to

We agree. The statement was that no major figure on the left claims fraud. Hillary Clinton, a specifically named major figure on the left, claims fraud.


I think my point was more that Clinton claimed "inappropriate and possibly illegal election interference (or attempts)", hence illegitimate, not "specifically committed vote counting fraud".



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