It's true at last anecdotally. Related, there's a running joke in some subset of the industry about the types of exotic derivatives that are so complex and esoteric "only french banks" trade them.
IMO shows more which countries have programs to train top math schoolchildren to win in IMO. That's very different than producing professional mathematicians, which is more about universities and graduate schools.
In France, good students go to “classes prepas” for 2-3 years. It’s a period sort of between high school and university. I’m not sure if students are eligible to participate in IMO in this period. Perhaps someone else could clarify.
Regardless, France has a strong math culture. This is clearly seen in Fields Medals.
France's math culture is a facet of its rigorous education system. Which in contrast to other western nations that will remain unnamed, doesn't easily award advancement through it.
I've worked with both extensively with both groups of French and German researchers at an English speaking lab and there were some noticeable oddities. The Germans never spoke German, even afaict in one-to-one conversations (say, at the desk next to me when debugging). The French were much more committed to their language and would speak French all the time, including in public slack channels and often at lunch if there was a large enough minority at the table.
> The Germans never spoke German, even afaict in one-to-one conversations
This is fairly standard etiquette everywhere I've been in Central and Northern Europe.
The general idea is that it would be rude to have a one on one _next_ to you in a language that you might not understand.
Also in general I think people that only speak one language always assume other people are bad mouthing when usually people are just talking about random trivialities or some work/life problems. So it's always safer to keep everything in English.
Language is not a neutral medium. Languages induce a different way of thinking, different ways of solving problems, different ways to approach interpersonal behavior. Some languages will have vocabulary that doesn't exist in others, producing original concepts. Same goes with grammar, where many languages have very subtle and specific ways of representing time, classification, or logic, for instance.
You can read "Contre la Pensée Unique", of Claude Hagège (linguist at Collège de France) about it. He introduces the concept of "Galapagos effect", where linguistic differences with links and informational bridges lead to more innovation due to diversity of thoughts.
As a sidenote, speaking in your native language is always easier than speaking in english or any other language. If your mother tongue happens to be a language very well suited for science and mathematics, like French is, why speak english? Especially with other french speakers.
I was curious about this because it describes what I have always heard as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which has always been controversial and was out favor during the 1960s through 1980s. I looked up the Wikipedia article on linguistic relativity, which is apparently the proper name for it, and found that recent studies had actually confirmed the weak form of this hypothesis, that language can shape cognition. There is however evidence against the strong form of this hypothesis, which is that language can limit or preclude cognition.
So I'm left to conclude that the parent post saying that thinking in a particular language could lead to insights that wouldn't happen with a native speaker of another language, is not wrong. However it would be wrong to think that the speaker of that other language could not understand that insight, once explained. (Which is not at all what the parent said; I'm just fleshing this out for my own understanding.)
The “evidence” for this is pretty simple for anyone who has lived and learned different languages. It's the reason learning ancient Greek was for a long time a necessary step for European's elites, since the Roman Empire - the language was deemed to be a better medium of thought. For instance, there are multiple declinations of the word "love", with, for each, a subtle flavour, that is difficult to replicate precisely in English, and even harder in other languages :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love
A language that insists a lot on the logical aspect of the sentence, such as French, will lead the speaker to think more logically. A language that makes it easy to create new words, such as German, will help the speaker to create new concepts.
A speaker of a language where time is represented linearly (say, Indo-Europeans), will think differently about it, compared to someone who speaks a language where the concept of time is much more relativistic. There is a plethora of literature regarding “African time” and why westerners have a hard time to understand African's view of punctuality because of this.
The same goes with personality, it's common that people have different personality depending on the language they speak! I'm personally much more polite in English, as the use of conditionals is much easier than in my native language (French). Some languages are also meant to be spoken differently depending on the sex of the speaker - Japanese comes to mind.
Does that mean that some things can't be translated? Not necessarily, but there's always something lost in translation, along with friction. No language is also “Turing complete”, and there's not a pure 100% overlap between every language. For instance, Estonian has no native word for art because of its peasant origins, and had to borrow the German "kunst"!
There's also a “bandwidth” aspect - some languages are slower to convey information, while others are faster. French is one of the fastest, and if you know French top-engineers, you know that they tend to speak FAST on top of this! ;-)
As such, if your mother tongue is a good language to do science (French) in, and you're discussing with a fellow native speaker, it's preferable to speak in it rather than in English. It's also much more comfortable, and the cultural proximity allows for a better work atmosphere and relationships. Which probably leads to better-performing teams as well.
Of course, if you, as a dictator, ban the word "sad" and the adjacent synonyms, people won't stop feeling sad. However, it's likely that they won't be able to reflect on what they feel, which in turn will change the way they think. And it's likely that the psychologists of this country will have a much harder time healing their patients or writing papers about depression.
Je ne suis pas convaincu, j'ai plutôt tendance à voir les Français se taire en présence des non-francophones pour éviter le jugement des autres Français aux alentours (qui se feront un plaisir de se gausser de votre accent ou de la moindre bévue).
Je n'ai jamais entendu un Français "se gausser", je pense que c'est surtout un complexe d'infériorité que beaucoup de Français ont, et qui pensent qu'ils s'humilient en ne parlant pas comme la reine d'Angleterre.
I think Paris has a very good pool of scientists/engineers specialized in AI, it's not just a trend. It's probably linked to the engineering schools ecosystem.
It started with AdTech 15 years ago, then Google/Meta opening labs there.
If you think Google and metal started that I’ve got a bridge to sell you. To world class engineers produced there just used to become expats or work for big industrial players. They now have a (small) playground with the French tech.
Having run a business in France for 16 years (with employees), I do not consider the labor laws to be such a barrier.
I think if you ask many SMBs owners in France, we'd gripe more about the tax system (which got slightly less opaque since RSI was finally shut down, but no less onerous) or the paperwork.
Allowing people who dedicate their workweek to your business, to have social benefits, free healthcare, retirement benefits and unemployment money if they get fired seems like a fair deal to me.
Especially if you consider that even taking into account those "extra costs", total comp seems to me to still be lower than what you'd have to pay a US employee for the same job
It’s actually quite hard to find a stable job in France due to these laws: companies only give short term contracts and then rotate you out once they get in danger zone (you need to hire them full time now).
Also my friends back in France are always in holidays. They’re forced to take a full month in some positions like banking as they need to ensure continuity of business even when people are not there for extended periods of time. A friend of mine has 45 days off.
Personally I think it’s great but if you’re in a competitive industry AND competing with the American Workaholics you don’t have a single chance.
Unless I'm wrong, there are more than 45 days of work in a year. How come the are "always in holidays" then?
Joke aside, American friends seem to me that they're always fighting a perpetual burn-out, as they can't take holidays and get some real rest. When I was working in France, I used to take a 1 month break in summer. I always felt that after the third week, something changed in my body, as my nervous system was fully rested and I was ready to go back work my ass off.
So maybe there's a reason, and if taking a month off allows you to be 1/12 more productive for the whole year, it's worth it?
The holidays are worth it from the pov of the employee I don’t disagree with that. Not from the point of view of a company trying to extract as much out of employees. I don’t think you’re more productive because you get more holidays on the contrary (I mean the domination of the US in tech should show that)
If that was true, Japan, China and South Korea would crush the US tech as they do often do the 996.
In reality, domination of US tech is a mix of factors:
- Easy access to the wealthiest market of the world, and a very large population.
- Brain drain allowing to acquire the best talent from other countries.
- Access to the american VC network that is the mosy liquid of the world.
- You could also add a piggy backing on the US soft power which helps market products accross the world.
Don't believe that all French work 35h - this rule is only in very large and, wealthy companies. Now most French graduates work 40 to 50h/week.
And yeah, given the high rates of cancer and similar diseases that I see consultancies where my friends work, I'm not sure it's good for companies on the long run. It's more akin to "employee mining" that human ressource management.
I agree with your points, and I don’t think it voids my point. The Asian way is completely inefficient because it’s way past the trade off that the US made. It’s nothing like the US. The US is “bring your work home” and Asia is “bring home at work”
Everything you wrote is either lies, or very specific to an industry that I have never seen in the past 50 years. But I would say lies or FUD because it’s ridiculous.
This is a simplistic view. The protective labor laws protect some workers, but can bring about a host of adverse effects. The good and bad are equally protected.
For example, my work place in France was so toxic that over time I developed psychological problems, because the institution could not address the abuse, harassment, bullying, etc, since everyone had secure permanent contracts (CDI) strongly protected by unions and could afford arbitrary behavior. A lot of people didn’t care doing their jobs properly, bringing about an environment with problems everywhere.
That's an excellent point, it's even worse in the public administration where everyone is un-fireable. The only way to get the bad apples out is usually through a promotion :-/
"Have you considered that labor laws protect workers, and workers who are happy and feel safe and not exploited are more productive?"
I remember reading an interview with Stephane Israel, the director of Arianespace, who complained that with a leisurely 35-hour workweek, they have no chance competing with workaholics at SpaceX.
While it would be a much nicer world if you were right, I am not sure you are. East Asians work even more and they seem to be overtaking the Western Civilization lately.
> East Asians work even more and they seem to be overtaking the Western Civilization lately.
I think East Asian working culture is pushing the limits of human physiology and psychology. I've seen documentaries on South Korean work culture, for example, where people consistently receive less sleep than is healthy because they work so much. To use the example of Korea again, their work culture is probably contributing to the low birthrate which is ultimately counterproductive.
There's a vignette I've heard about a movie theater. Imagine someone in the front of the theater stands up to get a better view. The person behind them then needs to stand up to maintain the same view. Eventually everyone is standing up, with the same view as before and more uncomfortable than when they were sitting. It's an analogy for heavy work cultures, which can be counterproductive and unnecessary after a certain point.
Could French work culture be more productive than American, or Korean, work culture? I don't know, but it's not simply a matter of measuring short term outputs and ignoring externalities such as rates of depression, alienation, poor health, or low birthrates.
Labor laws are seen as a plus by many people, even in a hot market like AI.
- Candidates know they won’t be showered with praise and sign-on bonuses here and now but ignored and thrown out the back after the first review cycle. If anything happens to them (let’s say, a bouldering accident), they know they’ll be given time, care, and consideration. They know they’ll have weekends off to train bouldering, too. If you know people won’t fire you on a whim, you know they’ll hire responsibly, invest in you, and encourage lateral moves when your path isn’t leading anywhere.
- Employers might want to look very attractive, but that coffee machine, that micro-kitchen is no guarantee—not anymore after the last two years. It’s nice to promise the best private health plan: I got one through a big tech company. Never needed it. But I’ve heard from people who did that it’s nowhere near what a patient would want. After that, I remember asking a small start-up in the UK if they offered anything similar. That was stupid: they could never afford anything like it. And they were puzzled… Every resident has access to the NHS, by law. They didn’t list that as a benefit because they thought they were competing with local companies. They hired a lot of Americans, and every one of them could not stop talking about how much better the care was.
Now that I mention it, it’s suspicious that all of them needed medical care as soon as they arrived…
It goes beyond that: a society with a strong safety net is better off. Countries with strong social nets have safer streets. Many candidates might be males over-estimating their ability to get out ahead in a street fight and be indifferent to high crime rates, but some have partners that might not care for headlines like “Mugging capital of the world” and “Precinct ran out of rape kits”. I like knowing that my loved ones don’t do “active shooter drills” routinely.
Personally, I left a job that was really great for several reasons. A big one was that, during my 5-minute walking commute (in the Northern Quarter in Manchester, UK), I had to walk past 50 or so people standing unconscious, wobbling, clearly high on “spice” (a cluster of synthetic “zombie” drugs so destructive and violent, the only survivor on record testified one should never try it and do something “chill, like heroin,” instead). I’d much rather live in a country where I know the emergency psychiatry and addiction programs are publicly financed, free for patients, and well-staffed. But that’s because my partner is the one working there, so I’m biased.
Experiences like that, seeing human lives wasting on the pavement daily, might seem extreme and definitely foreign to people from, say, San Francisco. Still, if you know about human tragedy directly, you prefer to live somewhere that addresses that.
> Experiences like that, seeing human lives wasting on the pavement daily, might seem extreme and definitely foreign to people from, say, San Francisco. Still, if you know about human tragedy directly, you prefer to live somewhere that addresses that.
Not to detract from your other points, with which I agree, but do you mean 'might seem familiar to people from, say, San Francisco'?
This is a really helpful and comprehensive breakdown of the drawbacks. I'm not in the US, Australia, but on HN it's easy to view the US as some quality of life haven for SWEs without a countervailing opinion. Not helped by American nationalists who insist the country is the best on Earth.
Thanks. Looked into it, but they don't seem to be hiring MLEs/Researchers.
Also it seems to be a very generic, "we give you the AI" business without a clear product or service.
