Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Genetics show grapevines domesticated in 2 places, 3k years earlier than thought (wineanorak.com)
64 points by rntn on March 4, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 2 comments



I hobby breed grapes (hybridize wild source NA vitis with vinifera, mostly), so this topic interests me.

I believe I saw a similar study some years ago that similarly identified at least two original population sources for domestication of vinifera; an "oriental" (southern/eastern) source and the Georgian/Caucasian source. There was also a mention of v.sylvestris populations out of the Iberian peninsula maybe having contributed. I believe Patrick McGovern (expert / author on "Ancient Wine") has talked about this.

(Aside: FWIW the centres of diversity (and therefore origin) for the Vitis genus are Eastern North America, and China. Europe has basically 1 species of vitis: vinifera/sylvestris. There are dozens in E.NA and China, with a startling array of useful genetic traits. Europeans and wine snobs generally will eventually have to come around to abandoning their 'racial purism' and embracing the richness of this genetic diversity in terms of disease/cold/heat resistance. Vinifera/sylvestris is extremely... weak and sickly at this point, when put up against the challenges of disease/pests/climate)

Haven't read the papers yet, but I am skeptical of the ability to do good genetics here because of the amount of leakage of domesticated vinifera genes back into wild populations. Domestic cultivation of grapes has gone on so long and is so geographically prevalent and leaky that I doubt the existence of any pure "wild" populations. What might be identified here is simply in fact selective breeding/trading-of-varieties in the 2-3 different viticultural cultures in the regions: emphasis in the south and east was for table grape or (in ancient times) high sugar sweet wine production with grapes that can survive the intense heat. In the north, dry table wine production, less emphasis on sugars, and survivability of cold and frost is more important.

In fact, much of the 'wild' v.sylvestris populations in Europe have been shown to be chock full of North American wild vitis (Vitis riparia, rupestris, etc) genes because of the presence of inter-specific hybrid producers and rootstocks in European vineyards for over 100 years.

Vitis hybridizes extremely easy. Happens all the time in the wild, and produces totally viable and interesting grapes. (Apart from v.rotundifolia split very early from the main family tree and has 40 chromosomes instead of 38, but that has also been hybridized).

I'd like to see studies like this that sample the genetics from grape seeds ("pips") found in archeological sites.


Meta: 13 hours, 44 points, no comments until now.

That is rather unusual I think : )




Consider applying for YC's Fall 2025 batch! Applications are open till Aug 4

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: