Paul - Why not create a "comment karma threshold" to remove the incentive for new users to blindly submit stories?
For instance, users won't get karma points for stories they submit until they reach some threshold for karma from their comments. This would be beneficial in a number of ways:
* encourage better comments from new users
* prevent downvote capability for new users that only submit a lot of stories
* fewer low-quality stories will be submitted
I get what you're saying, but I am not sure it does.
When I first arrived on HN, I was unsure about what was appropriate to post. I learned by reading the comments and contributing where I had something useful to share.
Now, after a year or two, I often hear or read a story and think HN has to see this. Then I step back and really weigh whether it fits HN or if I just think it's cool. Often, I end up not submitting. By starting out slow I realized HN isn't popularity contest, but an important community.
I believe that is what the flag button is for. Down vote button on a story could lead to people downvoting something they don't like because it is the opposite of upvoting. Flag is more of a "this is an inappropriate story" word.
On behalf of authors everywhere, please don't use the flag button as a downvote button. This, for several reasons:
1. It's overpowered. Based on some experiments I conducted a year or so ago, it seems like 1-2 flags equal about 10-20 places dropped in the rankings. It's brutal. A single person in a bad mood can drop a story like a stone. I don't know the exact maths, but a single flag seems to have the effect of many downvotes.
2. It's not what it was designed for! According to the guidelines, flagging is meant to be for "spam or offtopic", not for stuff you don't like or disagree with and want to downvote. If you disagree with it, write a comment to explain why, or find a comment that agrees with your disagreement and upvote that. Flagging is not a way to express disagreement!
3. It's mean. I regularly get articles on the front page, and I don't care that much what happens to them (though of course I like to see the discussion they generate!), but once upon a time I did, and I'm sure that's still the case for many. When you put your heart and soul into an article, and it miraculously got picked up by HN, and it's on the front page, and people are finally checking out your blog, and it's getting more visitors in one hour than it had in the last 6 months... and you see the story suddenly vanish to the second page because someone flagged it... wow, that feels like a punch to the stomach. So please don't flag "real" articles, only flag spam/trash.
If you think an article sucks, post a comment to explain why you think so. Maybe you misunderstood. In any case, the feedback will be clearer. Please don't use the flagging sledgehammer to express disagreement.
(note: I don't know if pg would agree with the above, but these are my feelings)
> It's not what it was designed for! According to the guidelines, flagging is meant to be for "spam or offtopic", not for stuff you don't like or disagree with and want to downvote. If you disagree with it, write a comment to explain why, or find a comment that agrees with your disagreement and upvote that. Flagging is not a way to express disagreement!
Disagreeing with something is not a reason to downvote either.
In the perspective of many people here, downvotes are to indicate that you don't think the comment contributes to the conversation in a positive way. For example, I upvote comments I disagree with as long as they make the point well and give me something to think about. Similarly, I downvote comments I agree with if they're snide or poorly constructed.
Yes, I think many people are under the mistaken impression that the upvote/downvote buttons are functionally symmetrical, which is understandable given that they are presented as visually symmetrical. But upvoting serves to avoid redundant 'I agree.' posts, while if users downvote to disagree, it robs the discussion of valuable content (i.e., why they disagree). It would help if the UI were modified to signal this asymmetry.
I'd fear you'd end up like Reddit where there is a large fraction of the submitters who downvote all other posts in a misguided effort to make their own reach the front page.
