Working as an engineer in a FAANG company, I usually have no mental energy left after work hours. How do people stay productive after work? I see people report learning stuff, working on side projects, etc etc on HN. How?
If you assume that your energy capacity is roughly constant, then the only way to have more energy after work, is to spend less energy at work.
Some people subscribe to the idea that you can generate more energy through discipline or enthusiasm. In my experience, it's like dipping into your reserve tank. It works in short bursts but actually requires more effort to replenish (see burnout).
The older I get the more I'm starting to resent this idea of "being productive". Lions sleep 3/4 of the day, are they productive? Something something about the nature of play and learning in kids and this relentless focus on being productive..
Many people talk alot about being productive, but few take the time to rigorously define what they mean by that. Often people seem to mean doing software work at a job, and then having energy/motivation to do more software work at home for fun/projects. In those situations burnout might be a defense mechanism in the same way that eating nothing but hamburgers will eventually make you ill. I'm not saying people shouldn't eat hamburgers, there is just a much broader space of possibilities. Coming home after work and doing something creative like drawing or improvising music can be energizing even after a long day.
I don't want to be productive just for the sake of being productive. What I meant is that I have some "hobbies" that I know I enjoy doing in right circumstances, having enough mental energy being one of them.
>What I meant is that I have some "hobbies" that I know I enjoy doing in right circumstances
Perhaps stop looking for the "right circumstances" to pursue your hobbies and just start engaging in them. Even if its only for 15 minutes a day. My hobbies restore my mental energy. If I get tired of coding, I go out in the woodshop and make something. Then I come back to coding and I'm more productive. Make sure your hobby is something orthogonal to what you do for work.
The most helpful advice around this actually came from a therapist. One of the things I started with in therapy was stress at work.
You can just get your work done. You don’t have to give 100% for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Some days it’s ok to be at 50%, and not feel guilty about it.
Sometimes I spend a few hours at work just learning stuff. I still get everything I committed to done.
At a certain point, I realized I was at the level that I spent years grinding to get to.
Once you’re there, recognize it. You can be a valuable person on the team whose input is important. A long time ago my dad once said “Get paid for what you know”. That had a profound impact on me.
If you’re still working on getting to your comfortable work/life balance, then by all means keep going. But keep checking to see if you already made it to where you want to be, or if you took on too much.
I’ve found success with a “first fruits”[0] approach: If I want to code as a hobby, I code for myself first thing in the morning instead of after work when I don’t have the energy or desire anymore.
But what if you have CS-related hobbies as well? Like learning a new programming language or writing a software of interest? How will you manage it? I'm like you. After 8+ hours of coding, I don't have any energy left for coding. But at the same time I also have coding-related hobbies which I never get a chance to work on, due to not having any mental energy left.
I have a few code projects. I recently had to rewrite one (due to my main data source closing their API), so I blocked out a weekend and did it then. But other than that, I only have to maintain them a few times a year. Choose technologies that don't need lots of maintenance. If you're writing a backend, avoid NodeJS. I find you end up in dependency hell very quickly and constantly need to maintain it. I wrote my stuff in Golang with zero external dependencies.
I also (begrudgingly) write a lot of documentation and helper scripts because I know the next time I touch a project, I'll have forgotten how everything works, and will _not_ want to spend time going through all the code. Write a script to help you deploy, and document where you need to get the credentials from. You'll be amazed how you forget that you need to copy it up to an s3 bucket, and you'll also forget where to get the creds.
It's great having productive & rewarding hobbies, but don't beat yourself up over the fact you don't want to code for 12 hours a day.
I think there's this expectation that coders love coding so much that it's all we do. We're expected to have these amazing Github profiles with OSS contributions and side projects. But do sales people run lemonade stands in their spare time? No, they're out there skiing and taking photos on top of mountains (or whatever sales people do).
Method B: Say "no" more at work, thus leaving gas in the tank
Method C: Be not-strictly-mentally productive after work, e.g. stream-of-consciousness writing, improvised music on an instrument you know well, etc.
Method D: Redefine productivity to fit the specification of whatever your "after work energy" is
Method E: Leave super clear side-project instructions and learning planned ahead of time, for weeknight you, as a gift from the weekend you (put a handle on it)
All of these have worked for me at some point or another. Good luck.
When I worked at a FAANG company I estimated that I needed to work around 60 hours a week to meet expectations. Nobody ever really talked about baselines like this because it makes the company look bad. Doesn't really help with imposter syndrome either. One of the founders mentioned a similar baseline during a fireside chat and I didn't feel so bad after that.
So, you could see what your baseline is, talk to peers (not HR), and see how the math falls out with whatever you want to spend your remaining time on.
That hasn't been my experience. I'm not saying I'm some kind of super genius or so productive but something has to drop if your workload is that extreme every week.
I would count everything including meetings, email, required trainings, team events, etc. People would attend low priority meetings and just work through them, it was nuts. Perhaps you have less of this in your company / role.
> I see people report learning stuff, working on side projects, etc etc on HN. How?
1. people on the internet are full of shit
2. Demis Hassabis (DeepMind) takes a 3 hour break from work to, quote: "have dinner and spend time with family". Then has another work/thinking session. Give it a try. That's what I'm trying to do
I used to be at FAANG. What helped me? Leaving Google and going to a startup. I work now for slightly less money, but my stress levels and my free time are much better! I have several fun multimedia OSS projects I want to release publicly soon. One will be on here!
And FYI FAANG isn't the endgame if you're unhappy. I got sick with IBS FAANG was so hyper-stressful, and I had to take disability. It was terrible. Don't let it get that bad, you might not ever go back. As a matter-of-fact, there's an IBS article trending on HN right now...
What helped me? Nature walks, new hobbies, finding new friends, joining a meetup group, learning about photography, learning about birds of my state, a bicycle, having a couple social nights a week to recharge any extrovert tendencies, joining a boardgame group, moving back to my home state.
Unfortunately I don't work out after work. Maybe I can give it a shot. Did you find it useful? Not for obvious health-related pros, but for increasing productivity regarding personal interests and hobbies.
If you don't have any mental energy left that's your body telling you to rest. Best to take that advice. Meet some friends, spent some time with family, have a nice cold glass of beer, that sort of thing. Dial down work if you want more time for side projects.
That's what I have been doing mostly. Socialization, passive stuff, etc. But sometimes I'm not happy about not spending time for personal hobbies (due to the mental energy thing).
Energy is an illusion. What most people really mean by it is "mood." Am I in the mood, or not?
But mood is a terrible way to regulate your work. It is too easily affected by fatigue, the weather (particularly the amount of sunlight you get), the people around you, etc.
Therefore, I do 3 simple things.
1. Take a break after work. Relax. Chat with the kids. Whatever.
2. Start working whether I feel like it or not. Ideally, start at the same time every evening. (Usually, after I've been at it a while, I feel pretty good, no matter how I felt when I started. Your experience may or may not be similar)
3. Set a target. In my case, it's 1,000 words a day. I don't often hit it but this isn't life or death either. Having a goal and working toward it is what matters.
Bonus: Don't get stressed out if you miss one night because you feel lousy. These things happen. But try to stick to it anyway.
If you find you're never doing the work you think you should be doing, don't get stressed out then either. Just ask yourself how much it really matters to you. Maybe you aren't as dedicated to the particular thing as you think. Maybe try something else. See what happens.
Doing is better than not doing. But beating yourself hope for completely human failings is probably not the best way to get yourself to do better.
Step 1, quit the FAANG and find something less demanding / more fullfilling.
Step 2, you are broke and try different side project until one finally works enough to give you 500 more a month.
Step 3, you working harder than ever earning less than you did at your FAANG
Or
Take break from your FAANG job, travel, eat and live. Make friends in remote places and create a third world startup where you ipo into a semi-retired life or fail and go back to a FAANG
If it's something you care about, carve out a block you can sustain that you're just going to do every day. Nobody ever asks "how do I find time to brush my teeth every day?"
But it's possible these things aren't that important. I don't generally gave that much desire to do side projects. Why do even more of the same thing I do at work when so many other things are there to do?
My advice would be to either find projects/things you really enjoy & are excited to work on, or try streaming your adventures and side projects on Twitch in the Software & Game Dev category. Ideally, both!
This has helped me to stay active working on things and learning stuff outside of my work hours.
I'll risk looking like I'm shamelessly self promoting myself, but here's my stream for an example of how you might go about it:
I've been doing this for 5 years now and have met a small but wonderful bunch of folks, learnt a large amount across several different disciplines and generally enjoyed it all thoroughly.
Note, for me and others like me, the goal isn't to 'blow up' or get big on Twitch or elsewhere, but rather just to plod along learning & building in public as a means to stay active and focused.
If you'd like to explore this kind of thing, feel free to fire me a DM or email.
Honestly, it's a bit of both. It keeps me committed & accountable, as well as gives me a small community of supporters who help me learn and support me as my friends—I've formed some really meaningful relationships this way, and I don't think I'd have experienced a fraction of the success I have over the last 5 years without the impact of said folks.
edit: thanks for sharing the M2M post, I hadn't come across that but it's absolutely incredible; 'twas a wonderful rabbit hole to go down :)
I feel like this is a boring answer but for me, I had to make a habit of it, and then it didn't feel so hard any more. I started doing a master's degree in my free time: when I started I barely had the energy to do anything outside of work, but now I feel like setting aside time for coursework is pretty natural.
For me I find I usually fall into a 2/2/2 pattern for forming habits*: The first two days are super hard, after about two weeks it starts to feel doable, after two months the habit is pretty set and I don't have to worry as much about falling off the bus.
* This entire pattern is probably a placebo but that's fine by me
Of course, your energy is not infinite. If you are trying to work crazy hours and fit in other taxing activities, you are going to fail at some point.
The thing is that I like my job. It is rewarding, pay is good, etc etc. And I feel due to my curiosity, eagerness for learning, etc etc, whatever CS job I do, the result is gonna be the same. Not much mental energy left at the end of the day. I want to keep my job but at the same time have mental energy left for side interests. But don't know how.
First of all I don’t spend more than 8h on my day job. No ifs no buts. If I had a 9h work day plus commute then I’d have no energy for anything else. I’m done with my work day at 5 so I can do something else.
Second: if I don’t want to do I side project then I don’t. If it’s not done for fun then it isn’t a hobby, it’s a chore. It’s work.
I actually am taking Ritalin (methylphenidate) already. But in the morning. Not sure if you mean taking it after work.
Side note: Counterintuitively, Ritalin *might* have been playing a role in my problem as it's known to induce fatigue few hours after taking it.
Being a morning person I just crash and get back to things once I have slept and recovered. Starting the day a bit earlier than others yields some time for myself and my own goals that is like evening time for others but in many ways more quiet and less contested.
Makes sense. But what if you have coding-related hobbies? Like learning a new programming language or writing a software of interest? It's kinda contradictory. We like to do it in general, but as you said, sitting in front of the screen is the last thing we want to do. So how to resolve this paradox?
One of the things that I heard a lot and confirm, is that you need to do a side project that has nothing to do with the stuff that you are doing at work, especially it needs to motivate you as well.
Uhh why? You are at FAANG, you made it, what else do you need to do? Why not relax instead?
Are you struggling to keep your head above water? If so, why not just focus on work? If not, then why don't you just spend less time working and more time doing what you want?
I believe people have limited capacity, trying to stretch yourself will result in burn out. If you can afford it, allocate some of the capacity you are dedicating to work to the non-work things you are interested in. If you can't, then just focus on work until you can
I have some interests, some of which are related to computer science, such as learning Haskell or working on a side project. These types of activities require a lot of mental energy and it can be difficult for me to have the energy to work on them after spending 8 hours at my job. I'm curious to know how other people manage to do it. Other interests I have, like learning to play the piano, require less mental energy. But to be honest, after spending 8 hours at work, I often find myself doing very passive activities like watching YouTube or scrolling through HN and bookmarking things without actually reading them. I don't want to be like this, but I don't know how to change.
For me the difficulty was switching my brain off. I tried breathing exercises, and meditation, but I couldn’t get them to work (maybe I was doing them wrong)
The thing that worked for me in the end was a static mental imagery, I was listening to a YouTube video and it said to imagine yourself on a lake, in a boat, looking at the sky, with no thoughts - this particular image didn’t work for me, but then they suggested imagine yourself in a dark room in a hammock - this image worked for me, and I was able to silence my mind and sleep quickly
After about 20 days of doing this, some kind of Pavlovian conditioning happened where my body understands that bed + this image means sleep now
Working and grinding harder at $FAANGco (or any company you don't own at least 5-10%+ of) is unlikely to be rewarded with significantly more than the minimum required to be comfortable. Massive raises and promotions for ICs or mid-level managers rapidly drop-off and become rare and underwhelming once you've reached a "senior" level.
Controversial position: Diversify and aim to accomplish more in life than extending zeros in the bank account game. Seek fulfillment elsewhere.
Learn a new skill or hobby, invest in relationships, or otherwise find a life and your true soul outside of work. You can always make more money but you can't recover spent time. At all.
Consider not falling for The Big Lie.
Sincerely wish for and want the best life for you,
Md
Jeez...stop this fetish of copying what others do on HN. You've no idea what their work situation is. May be they've a week or two of downtime before their next project. I suggest you relax instead and do your favorite leisure activity - reading, playing with kids, music, whatever...Please don't live up to others' expectations esp. HN.
It's not about copying what HNers do or living up to others' expectations. I actually have CS-related interests like learning haskell or doing side projects. Some HNers seem to be successfully doing it. I can't. So I was wondering how they manage it.
I believe you're trying to achieve what's impossible for most people. To have brain cycles left for mentally demanding side projects is not possible after 8 hrs solid coding work, for most people. Doing hard physical exercise for best part of an hour at some point in the day can revitalise and give , possibly counter-intuitively, more energy. That's a hack that helps a bit and is worth doing anyway. Other than that, how about ask to go 4 days a week, and spend the 5th on your side projects? That'd be a 20% salary hit , which is worth it if you can afford that and it either eventually pays itself back from side projects earnings or makes you happier and more fulfilled. Personally, I have some research ideas that I half fancy doing a Phd on one day, and I plan to do that once retired or semi-retired, so when 'm quite old. It wouldn't be realistic to try to do that before then on top of everything else. Another thing you could do of course is save up, take 6 months off and do all that on side project. But may require living frugally, and may be risky in current job market. Good luck :)
If not fetishizing "productivity" and relaxing is living a "meaningless, wasted life" by all means I want to be the person living a meaningless, wasted life.
Some people subscribe to the idea that you can generate more energy through discipline or enthusiasm. In my experience, it's like dipping into your reserve tank. It works in short bursts but actually requires more effort to replenish (see burnout).
The older I get the more I'm starting to resent this idea of "being productive". Lions sleep 3/4 of the day, are they productive? Something something about the nature of play and learning in kids and this relentless focus on being productive..