+1 I really do like my new Moonlander, which I purchased in November. However, as a former Kinesis Advantage user, I miss the contoured shape, I think it helped a lot with carpal pain.
That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
Yeah, the bowl shape is absolutely the missing piece on my Moonlander. It is otherwise perfect in nearly every other way, and the flexibility from QMK is unmatched. But I don't know how you can reconcile it with its low profile; the Moonlander looks a lot nicer to throw in my bag than the 360 when you pull the wings in...
I agree; I can't justify yet another keyboard. But there's the continuous itch to go ham and design my own split contour keyboard with QMK...
(For anyone reading this, you literally can't go wrong with either of these keyboards and they'll last 10+ years, so get one if you can.)
I got a extra set of legs from ZSA (was cheaper in the Ergodox store than the Moonlander store) which allows putting the thumb pads on the desk, plus MT3 profile caps, both of which add to a somewhat a finger helping curve;
ok, could you expand on your experiences with both? i’m a longtime kinesis user (like, LONG time—i got rid of one with an AT connector a few years ago) and i’ve been really toying with the idea of switching. what are the pros and cons you’ve experienced?
Not OP but the issue for me moving from a scooped keyboard (Kinesis) to a flat one (Ergodox) was reaching the top/bottom row comfortably.
On a flat keyboard, hitting that top row (especially edge keys like the 5 and 6) required either moving my entire hand or doing some weird reaching motion. And I wear a 4XL glove so I don't even know how other people deal with the top row at all. Being able to not move your hands as much doesn't sound like a big thing but it helped a lot with my wrist issues because I can find a comfortable position when I get started and never leave it until I stand up.
I'm currently on a scooped and fully split KB from bastardkb.com which is kind of the best of both worlds (scooped for reach, split for my shoulders, and custom firmware so I can use less keys overall). But if Kinesis offers that out-of-the-box it's a pretty easy choice for my next keyboard.
I’ve used both extensively and fully switched from the Kinesis Adv2 to the Moonlander. I believe what gp is referring to is the (obvious) structural difference between the two. With the Advantage 2, your hands are largely resting on the frame of the keyboard. With the Moonlander your wrists are either poised above whatever surface you have the Moonlander on or resting directly on it. For me, and I suspect most people, that’s simply my desk. At that point the height of your arm with respect to your desk becomes very critical to avoid your wrists getting too far from a neutral position.
- QMK is second to none. With the moonlander specifically I can flash my keyboard from any OS with nothing but a browser and a paperclip.
- Tenting is easy, adjustable, and feels good to use. I liked the thumb cluster tenting (over the ergodox) because it felt more natural.
- Excellent build quality, wrist rests are comfy, and it's pretty portable (it's in my carryon bag right now).
- High quality switch and cap choices (mostly, the custom thumb buttons are obviously nonstandard. But I strongly disliked the rubber function key row of the advantage 2)
- I occasionally play FPS games, and like that I can disconnect the right half of the keyboard and gain more mousepad real estate.
Kinesis pros:
- Mainly the shape. I think the kinesis is probably the most natural device to type on. The moonlander is comfy, but I think the kinesis is still more natural overall. The sculpted key-well is ideal, IMHO.
Both keyboards have eliminated my carpal tunnel symptoms, so I don't have any issues recommending either. If you're going to travel with a keyboard, definitely get the moonlander. But I think from a pure ergonomic standpoint - the kinesis wins.
If I ever switch jobs and have a keyboard stipend, I'll purchase the Advantage 360 and write a full review. But I'm very happy with my present position :)
I have one, but it's in a drawer now because I was finding it too difficult to switch between it and a normal laptop keyboard. I want a split keyboard that has all the keys in the same places, so muscle memory doesn't need to adapt. I touch type, so the same fingers just need to find the same keys in the same relative positions. Mainlander does not do that, and I can't find the layout or top view zoomable photos for this one :-/
I switched to Microsoft Sculpt for this reason. Muscle memory is fully compatible with a laptop keyboard. Except it’s much more comfortable, due to the tilt, width and superb tactile feeling for such low-travel keys. Totally took away all my wrist pains.
As a bonus it doesn’t look like a science-lab on your desk, like a lot of other ergonomic keyboards do. Got to say this new Advantage 360 has a really nice look though.
There's a ~$30 add-on accessory to add tenting support in 5°, 10°, and 15° positions. Same as with the Freestyle Edge mentioned in the other comment, for the newer, gaming-focused keyboard. I find it to be the best part of having a split keyboard.
And its also distinctive because you can (with some caveats) use separate USB cables to each side, rather than a cable spanning the two parts. That works really well for me.
IMO moonlander, ergodox, etc .. all just shitty Advantages. The only thing that comes close in the DIY/Enthusiast community is the Dactyl. Nothing beats the contour.
I'd say that it is more their response to the Dactyl[1] and the Dactyl Manuform[2] which is similar to Kinesis but split.
Those started as open source DIY keyboards, and originally you had to 3D-print, hand-wire, solder and program yourself, but ready-made ones are available now.
I was pretty hot on getting the Moonlander when it first came out, but I really wanted unlabeled keys. They now offer that, but I'm having a hard time committing to spending the money when I'm so happy with my ErgoDox Ez.
Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
I've had both. I find that the moonlander is a LOT smaller, and feels a bit better because the wrist-rests are integrated (that was probably my biggest annoyance with the EZ). I was able to sell my EZ for about 250, so the moonlander realistically cost me about 150. The moonlander is about 25% better than the EZ (note: there are a few keys missing) and overall I'm happy with my upgrade
I have no experience with the ErgoDox, and loved the Moonlander when I first received it. Over time I've grown to dislike the thumb clusters, they're too far away when tented, making only the inner thumb button easily reachable.
(I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try something else soon, probably a Kyria).
I've used both the Ergodox and Moonlander. In general, I think both keyboards have poor thumb clusters. The Moonlander has the big red buttons that you can't press while keeping your hands in normal typing position. The Ergodox has the 4 1U keys that are also hard to press.
The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.) As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.)
Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent to. I use this thing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it.
Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents. I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so it's definitely a third option to consider.
Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107 key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though, so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
I also have both and prefer the Moonlander. I like the adjustable thumb keys, integrated wrist supports, and smaller size compared to the Ez. That said, the Ez is a GREAT keyboard.
Yep, love my Moonlander - it has really helped with my wrist issues. The only trouble I have is when I have to switch to a standard keyboard (e.g., on a laptop).
I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (and it's kin) since 2000. I can switch back and forth to standard boards without losing speed or making errors. There are several replacement controllers for the Advantage that will let you use QMK and other custom firmwares.
It isn’t true for me, but what the ZSA folks point out is that for small hands you may need it tilted upwards to make it natural to reach the thumb cluster.
I have the Ergodox EZ, so similar to the Moonlander. It took me about a full workweek to use it without looking at the keyboard, and another week to type at a competent speed. That said, after three years of ownership, I still can't type as fast as I can on my MacBook's keyboard (last I checked: 65wpm with the Ergodox, 109wpm with the MacBook).
Moonlander user here -- sort of, but not really. One of the reasons I bought it was the non-staggered keys, and I'd say it met my expectations. All the keys off the home row just seem a little closer.
I had been using the Kinesis Advantage 2 and for me there was almost no adjustment time. It did take me quite a while (two weeks) to get used to the Kinesis.
Switches are hotswappable on an ergodox ez. I bought one last year to get some quiet tactile switches, and it's been really good so far. Earlier versions of the ergodox are probably what you're thinking of
