I picked up a Kinesis a few month ago and it's been a life changer. I've struggled with shoulder pain since as far back as I can remember. I'd done PT, dry needling, massage, etc etc. I'd even sprung for a personal ergonomic assessment. I'm a cyclist and and keyboard jockey, so most of my waking life is spent in positions that seemed to make it worse. At times it prevented me from sleeping, doing things I enjoyed, etc. I wear a 42 jacket, so I'm not crazy wide or anything.
I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.
Did your doctors or therapists consider Thoracic Outlet Syndrome? I've struggled with severe pain in shoulders, arms, hands and fingers for several years. It was sort of discovered by accident. They removed both of my first ribs (rib resection) and in combination with a Kinesis keyboard and a Wacom pen and tablet as a mouse replacement it's much better now.
Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection, the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful.
I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse, is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold the tablet) is much better.
Wow! Another TOS survivor. Despite all the RSI talk in the programming community, I still find it very rare that someone is actually diagnosed, let alone, goes through TOS. However, I do suspect that its prevalence is higher than estimated in this target community.
TOS killed my programming career. It ruined my life and brought me untold mental and physical pain. At one point I couldn't use my arms for more than thirty minutes a day. Even taking a shower was exhausting. I underwent two surgeries, one two remove the ribs and muscles entrapping my nerves. After the first surgery things were good for awhile, my hands were no longer purple (due compression on the vein/artery) and I could actually use a keyboard again. Unfortunately scar tissue grew over my nerves and entrapped them again. At this point I required a second surgery to remove the tissue, which worked quite well and enabled my to use my arms again. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect in life and I still have some tissue that is interfering with my neck and causing chronic pain for which I take a variety of medications for. I currently work a low end job in health care because I can't sit at a desk for 8 hours a day without substantial pain (trust me I've tried everything, at this point I could open an ergonomic store).
I just want to give a shout out to a fellow TOS victim, especially one in the tech world. It's a very rare condition and it's very damaging (imaging not being able to touch your phone without pain) and I wish there was more awareness.
Wow, I don't feel quite so alone anymore. I went through something similar, although I didn't have it as bad as you. I couldn't shake hands, lift a grocery bag, or drive for quite some time. The doctors I saw were stumped, and I got the sense that no one wanted to deal with it. I went to a PT, who guessed the problem incorrectly (in hindsight), but whose recommended exercises fortuitously happened to also help with TOS. It wasn't until many years later that a sports medicine doctor mentioned TOS as a possibility and everything clicked.
Can I ask how you were able to determine there was scar tissue? Was it just someone feeling it out or did you get an MRI?
I had severe pain in my fingers, hands, arms, shoulders, neck and head. Back pain came only in a later stage.
For my pain in hands, arms and fingers, the root of the problem was thoracic outlet syndrome. Exercises and physical therapy didn’t help, so the only option left was a rib resection, the removal of the first rib on my left and right side. It’s better now, but unfortunately years of compression of the nerves an blood vains resulted in permanent nerve damage.
Unfortunately the second rib resection caused a severe brachial plexus injury, resulting in extreme pain, weakness and the inability to use my left arm for several months. I couldn’t hold a glass of water, grap a small object or lift a pen above my shoulder. It took about 18 to 24 months of intense physical therapy to partially (80-90%) recover from that.
For my neck pain the remedy was an anterior cervical discectomy and fusion, surgery to remove a degenerative disc in the neck. I still have headaches on a regular basis, occipital neuralgia to be precise, 3 or 4 times a month. Pain killers and laying down in a dim or dark room for 18 to 36 hours (in bad cases) helps.
And for my back pain I’m on a steady schedule of 5 to 6 Radiofrequency Facet Joint Denervations a year, supplemented with 2 or 3 epidural infiltrations to counter radiating pain in my right leg. After 4 or 5 months the positive effects of the denervation gradually decreases. In that case I can use a medical TENS unit to treat the pain.
And, of course, painkillers: the extended-release form of tramadol.
And it all started with some pain or inflammation in my right wrist, easily fixable with an ergonomic mouse, keyboard or better posture, right?
After years of pain, I was also diagnosed with TOS. I will not go for surgery however, as this can make things more complicated. A split keyboard (I got the moonlander some months ago) did have a little effect for me, however not a huge one I was hoping for. I'm trying/doing a lot of posture related exercises. Some days its better, some days its hard to get through the work day. Would appreciate any hints which made things better for others with TOS and a desk job. It's a constant trial & error with ups and downs here.
I would definitely recommend a sit-stand desk. Variation is key. Try to figure out if holding your shoulders up or down makes things worse and adjust your arm support accordingly. A good desk chair can help, with adjustable or removable arm support. You can try out different ergonomic keyboards or mice, but that can get pretty expensive, with no guaranteed results (and lots of frustration). Look on eBay for used ones or find a vendor with an extended return policy.
Take enough breaks, no matter what. Take a walk, no matter how short. Get the blood and nerve signals in your arms flowing.
Switch between desktop, laptop or tablet during the day. Use them for specific tasks (like reading mails on your tablet, development or content creation on your desktop and casual browsing on your laptop.
But I’m pretty sure you’re already familiar with most of my advice.
Pretty sure I have TOS too — it's how I came to discover Kinesis keyboards. It's manageable for me now, but I would be curious to find out if there was nerve damage so that I know how further I can improve and what's futile. Can I ask how the doctors determined that there was damage to your arm nerves? E.g. what sort of imaging / tests do they do?
In my case, the first clue came by accident. The MD asked my to hold my arms up and after a short time it became really painful and intolerable. Another one rest is taking your pulse by hand while holding up your the arm. If the pulse is pretty weak, hard to feel or completely disappears, that’s a strong indication for TOS.
An electromyography or EMG is also often used to determine neuromuscular problems or nerve damage.
A MRI scan can also reveal TOS problems, but the medical technicians must be familiar with it the tests and and execute them correctly. In my case the MRI scan was negative, probably because the test was only partially done (in hindsight).
For me, the real confirmation came after an extensive arterial duplex ultrasound examination at a university hospital. Various head rotations, arm and shoulder positions were examined. In some positions the arterial flow in my arm completely disappeared. The examining specialist physician, a professor of medicine and specialised in TOS, called it one of the most clear cut cases of TOS he has ever seen in his career.
Based on the MRI scan there were some serious doubts that TOS was the problem, bus the ultrasound tests made it perfectly clear. It’s shows that it is really important that you consult doctors or surgeons very familiar with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. Search on the internet for recommendations or specialised medical departments.
1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch)
2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+ massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could fix the problems.
I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above tips I'm not sure you need it.
I've had shoulder pain for a couple of years now and I'm reading this right after I bought an old 500 on eBay for $100 two hours ago. I love my Niz topre clone but I need a healthier layout, and now I'm pretty stoked.
Just wanted to thank you for this comment. I have very broad shoulders but have been hacking on Apple keyboards for a few years now - the results are that I have essentially permanent internal rotation of my shoulders. This has led to not being able to breathe properly with my diaphragm, which causes all kinds of issues!
I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.
I can attest to that. I tried microsoft ergonomic keyboards, logitech keboards but they didn't help then i found kinesis freestyle split keyboard and since then almost all the issues are gone. prior to switching to kinesis, i also switched from kwerty to dvorak, It helped but not that much. I used to have issues with my right hand due mouse usage, so i switched from right to left hand because i am right handed and unconsciously i was using it way more then my left. you do need to complement the change with upperbody stretching.
I've been using a Freestyle 2 for a year+ now, 10" split, mouse sits in the middle.
While typing it keeps my arms on the chair's armrests with my hands just extending forward, and the current armrest height keeps my wrists an inch or so above the desk so I don't need to worry about tracking down wrist pads or such.
It depends on what I’m doing. If I’m doing a type intensive task I put it between the split and I use a track pad. Sometimes if I’m doing something mouse intensive I’ll shake it up, but that’s mostly how it stays.
In addition to all the comments from Advantage fans here, I also wanted to add that Kinesis has been an awesome company. I tweeted about some mods I made to my Advantage keyboard a long time ago, and they invited me to their office and donated a bunch of keyboards to the nonprofit I work for, to give as prizes to students (even before they launched the gaming-focused brand).
I delete my really old tweets, but it was actually to make the Advantage Bluetooth-enabled!
I added a Bluetooth keyboard converter, LiPo, and charge controller inside the case.
Unfortunately the Sparkfun documentation for the charge controller implied that it would prevent undervolting which wasn't true, and the battery died. They fixed the documentation but wouldn't send me a replacement battery. I didn't have the money for a new one at the time and reverted it.
I have been a Kinesis user for 8 years, starting with an Advantage USB, added a classic PS2(with a usb adapter) as a backup and then was a tester for the Advantage 2 which I ended up buying. A company I worked for gave me a choice for keyboards when I joined so I tried a Ergodox EZ with the RGB backlighting.
General observations:
1. Overall I prefer the Advantage over the Ergodox. The big reason is the contoured design and the fact that the Ergodox tends to walk around unless you have a solid desk pad underneath it. Also, the Ergodox never felt as comfortable as the Advantage. Yes the Advantage is not as easy to travel with but still....
2. I like the new design, but there are a few things that would have made the pro perfect. PBT backlit keycaps like they offer on the Ergodox-EZ and RGB backlighting...and maybe a set of f-keys (on the fence with the last one).
One other thing... A mix of o-rings and QMX clips made a huge difference with the feel of the keyboard for me. I have been a cherry brown user from the beginning though and different people have different preferences with that.
Kinesis is also really good about providing parts and service. I've had them send me replacement switches and have seen them offer up in-expensive replacement boards to repair and keep older models going.
I'm going to buy one of these, but given that I already have 4 high quality mechanical keyboards and I have yet to have one die I am starting to feel guilty having all of these laying around. That said there is a side of me that is curious about the Keyboard.io :)
Kinesis Advantage 2 is great, but it's massive and hard to travel with. Looks like the 360 might be a bit easier to travel with.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands.
Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
I bet the kinesis foot pedals would take emacs to the next level too. I use spacemacs in evil mode so I never bothered having to learn all those key chording things for emacs.
I have a kinesis advantage pro with foot pedal but the pedal just sucks to use. Foot is way too big and clumsy to keep pace with fingers, plus it forces you to sit in fixed position or fiddle with the pedal all the time to try and keep it in a comfortable position (trying to use the pedal shows how much I shift around in the chair during the day, nevermind when using a balance chair on wheels).
I rely heavily on the foot pedal. The single-pedal is too light and really wants to be bolted to something heavy so it doesn't slide around. The triple-food pedal is much nicer, just because it's heavy and stays put. I map all three foot-buttons to the same thing.
I used the triple-foot pedal for about 1.5 years. I now have chronic discomfort in my left foot; the one I used for the foot pedal. Of course it might be a coincidence, or it could be a RSI from using the foot pedal.
I have the Kinesis Freestyle 2 and, while the layout is good, I really dislike how the keys feel- very mushy, way too much travel distance, and many keys require moving my entire hand from the home row to properly depress because they're very resistant to non-perpendicular force.
What I really want is an ergo keyboard with Macbook/laptop style low-travel keys.
Freestyle Pro and Edge now have mechanical switches, which are better than the membrane of the Freestyle and Freestyle 2. With the Edge you can even choose the MX Speed Silver, for much shorter travel.
You can try some custom keyboard with low profile switches. There are many open source ones if you're up for the task. One option is cornish zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen-2
I built corne light v2 with choc v2 for my personal use.
The Magic Trackpad trick is gold! I did the same thing with my advantage 2 keyboard by taping it down with adhesive tape and it’s been an absolute godsend.
I’ve more or less stopped using a mouse and rely on keyboard shortcuts, when those fail I have the trackpad within striking distance.
I was using the magic trackpad, but due to pain in the back of my wrist I had to abandon it entirely and switch over to a logitech trackman mouse (same spot, right in the middle of the keyboard).
I had this setup for a while, but I had a habit of moving just the index finger, instead of the whole wrist. This caused some inflammation/swelling in the cartilage/muscle between the index and middle finger, so I had to abandon the setup.
+1 I really do like my new Moonlander, which I purchased in November. However, as a former Kinesis Advantage user, I miss the contoured shape, I think it helped a lot with carpal pain.
That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
Yeah, the bowl shape is absolutely the missing piece on my Moonlander. It is otherwise perfect in nearly every other way, and the flexibility from QMK is unmatched. But I don't know how you can reconcile it with its low profile; the Moonlander looks a lot nicer to throw in my bag than the 360 when you pull the wings in...
I agree; I can't justify yet another keyboard. But there's the continuous itch to go ham and design my own split contour keyboard with QMK...
(For anyone reading this, you literally can't go wrong with either of these keyboards and they'll last 10+ years, so get one if you can.)
I got a extra set of legs from ZSA (was cheaper in the Ergodox store than the Moonlander store) which allows putting the thumb pads on the desk, plus MT3 profile caps, both of which add to a somewhat a finger helping curve;
ok, could you expand on your experiences with both? i’m a longtime kinesis user (like, LONG time—i got rid of one with an AT connector a few years ago) and i’ve been really toying with the idea of switching. what are the pros and cons you’ve experienced?
Not OP but the issue for me moving from a scooped keyboard (Kinesis) to a flat one (Ergodox) was reaching the top/bottom row comfortably.
On a flat keyboard, hitting that top row (especially edge keys like the 5 and 6) required either moving my entire hand or doing some weird reaching motion. And I wear a 4XL glove so I don't even know how other people deal with the top row at all. Being able to not move your hands as much doesn't sound like a big thing but it helped a lot with my wrist issues because I can find a comfortable position when I get started and never leave it until I stand up.
I'm currently on a scooped and fully split KB from bastardkb.com which is kind of the best of both worlds (scooped for reach, split for my shoulders, and custom firmware so I can use less keys overall). But if Kinesis offers that out-of-the-box it's a pretty easy choice for my next keyboard.
I’ve used both extensively and fully switched from the Kinesis Adv2 to the Moonlander. I believe what gp is referring to is the (obvious) structural difference between the two. With the Advantage 2, your hands are largely resting on the frame of the keyboard. With the Moonlander your wrists are either poised above whatever surface you have the Moonlander on or resting directly on it. For me, and I suspect most people, that’s simply my desk. At that point the height of your arm with respect to your desk becomes very critical to avoid your wrists getting too far from a neutral position.
- QMK is second to none. With the moonlander specifically I can flash my keyboard from any OS with nothing but a browser and a paperclip.
- Tenting is easy, adjustable, and feels good to use. I liked the thumb cluster tenting (over the ergodox) because it felt more natural.
- Excellent build quality, wrist rests are comfy, and it's pretty portable (it's in my carryon bag right now).
- High quality switch and cap choices (mostly, the custom thumb buttons are obviously nonstandard. But I strongly disliked the rubber function key row of the advantage 2)
- I occasionally play FPS games, and like that I can disconnect the right half of the keyboard and gain more mousepad real estate.
Kinesis pros:
- Mainly the shape. I think the kinesis is probably the most natural device to type on. The moonlander is comfy, but I think the kinesis is still more natural overall. The sculpted key-well is ideal, IMHO.
Both keyboards have eliminated my carpal tunnel symptoms, so I don't have any issues recommending either. If you're going to travel with a keyboard, definitely get the moonlander. But I think from a pure ergonomic standpoint - the kinesis wins.
If I ever switch jobs and have a keyboard stipend, I'll purchase the Advantage 360 and write a full review. But I'm very happy with my present position :)
I have one, but it's in a drawer now because I was finding it too difficult to switch between it and a normal laptop keyboard. I want a split keyboard that has all the keys in the same places, so muscle memory doesn't need to adapt. I touch type, so the same fingers just need to find the same keys in the same relative positions. Mainlander does not do that, and I can't find the layout or top view zoomable photos for this one :-/
I switched to Microsoft Sculpt for this reason. Muscle memory is fully compatible with a laptop keyboard. Except it’s much more comfortable, due to the tilt, width and superb tactile feeling for such low-travel keys. Totally took away all my wrist pains.
As a bonus it doesn’t look like a science-lab on your desk, like a lot of other ergonomic keyboards do. Got to say this new Advantage 360 has a really nice look though.
There's a ~$30 add-on accessory to add tenting support in 5°, 10°, and 15° positions. Same as with the Freestyle Edge mentioned in the other comment, for the newer, gaming-focused keyboard. I find it to be the best part of having a split keyboard.
And its also distinctive because you can (with some caveats) use separate USB cables to each side, rather than a cable spanning the two parts. That works really well for me.
IMO moonlander, ergodox, etc .. all just shitty Advantages. The only thing that comes close in the DIY/Enthusiast community is the Dactyl. Nothing beats the contour.
I'd say that it is more their response to the Dactyl[1] and the Dactyl Manuform[2] which is similar to Kinesis but split.
Those started as open source DIY keyboards, and originally you had to 3D-print, hand-wire, solder and program yourself, but ready-made ones are available now.
I was pretty hot on getting the Moonlander when it first came out, but I really wanted unlabeled keys. They now offer that, but I'm having a hard time committing to spending the money when I'm so happy with my ErgoDox Ez.
Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
I've had both. I find that the moonlander is a LOT smaller, and feels a bit better because the wrist-rests are integrated (that was probably my biggest annoyance with the EZ). I was able to sell my EZ for about 250, so the moonlander realistically cost me about 150. The moonlander is about 25% better than the EZ (note: there are a few keys missing) and overall I'm happy with my upgrade
I have no experience with the ErgoDox, and loved the Moonlander when I first received it. Over time I've grown to dislike the thumb clusters, they're too far away when tented, making only the inner thumb button easily reachable.
(I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try something else soon, probably a Kyria).
I've used both the Ergodox and Moonlander. In general, I think both keyboards have poor thumb clusters. The Moonlander has the big red buttons that you can't press while keeping your hands in normal typing position. The Ergodox has the 4 1U keys that are also hard to press.
The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.) As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.)
Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent to. I use this thing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it.
Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents. I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so it's definitely a third option to consider.
Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107 key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though, so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
I also have both and prefer the Moonlander. I like the adjustable thumb keys, integrated wrist supports, and smaller size compared to the Ez. That said, the Ez is a GREAT keyboard.
Yep, love my Moonlander - it has really helped with my wrist issues. The only trouble I have is when I have to switch to a standard keyboard (e.g., on a laptop).
I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (and it's kin) since 2000. I can switch back and forth to standard boards without losing speed or making errors. There are several replacement controllers for the Advantage that will let you use QMK and other custom firmwares.
It isn’t true for me, but what the ZSA folks point out is that for small hands you may need it tilted upwards to make it natural to reach the thumb cluster.
I have the Ergodox EZ, so similar to the Moonlander. It took me about a full workweek to use it without looking at the keyboard, and another week to type at a competent speed. That said, after three years of ownership, I still can't type as fast as I can on my MacBook's keyboard (last I checked: 65wpm with the Ergodox, 109wpm with the MacBook).
Moonlander user here -- sort of, but not really. One of the reasons I bought it was the non-staggered keys, and I'd say it met my expectations. All the keys off the home row just seem a little closer.
I had been using the Kinesis Advantage 2 and for me there was almost no adjustment time. It did take me quite a while (two weeks) to get used to the Kinesis.
Switches are hotswappable on an ergodox ez. I bought one last year to get some quiet tactile switches, and it's been really good so far. Earlier versions of the ergodox are probably what you're thinking of
I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other non-split keyboard out there).
I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped layout was tough.
I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350 keyboard.
Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement.
Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want.
I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit without moving your entire hand.
I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
Personally I would not get a smaller (fewer keys) keyboard if that meant giving up keys like the F1 to F12 keys. I’m fine with having that home row option via layers and Vim and whatnot, but not having normal keys is just a downgrade in my opinion. Some applications want to use funky key combos, and I don’t want to make contortions in order to use them; the key combos might be uncomfortable enough on a regular keyboard where you don’t have to use some “F” key to access something basic like the arrow keys or “Home”.
On the whole the “home row” insistence seems like a bit of an obsession at times. It’s often nice, comfortable, and efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must be in some real trouble.)
I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad if I need it.
It's good to reduce keyboard width because we need to put pointing device somewhere near. But reducing height isn't sense for me because vertical space isn't matter at all. I don't strongly need F1-12 keys but prefer to have because nothing is harmed by having dedicated keys.
>Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement.
Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able to move keys closer to your fingers.
That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
> I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal
That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
They also sell pedals, which, I guess, you could use to switch layers. I am thinking about using pedals to switch to the arrow keys layer. I wonder what other uses the pedals have?
IME the pedal is even more clumsy than pressing two keys to switch layers (I've had an advantage pro for ~15 years and am now using a planck and also building my own split keyboard to replace the planck with something more ergonomic).
Modifier keycombos are often harder to use than simple keypresses. First of all because it involves two hands (if touch typing) and second of all because you have to coordinate the hands so that you type the combo in the right order (e.g. control before C).
“But the home row.” Right. And that’s sometimes a plus. But (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless you have to go back and forth a lot—then I think it’s a drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer) arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left).
It’s not an objective win either way. So you definitely cannot just say that it “isn’t a big deal” as if having to use another layer has no cost associated with it.
If you're using layers already, it's a small step to just add dedicated keys for those things in a layer. So that becomes LayerX + 9, or LayerX + R (for rebuild), or whatever combination you want.
But at this point you are just fixing an invented problem with more tasks to be done. A lot of these custom keyboards could just have been built with more of the standard keys.
Pessimistic: "without the full set of keyswitches, you need to use fancy tricks to make shortcuts usable".
Optimistic: "with fancy tricks, you can make shortcuts easily accessible without the need for the full set of keyswitches".
e.g. on my keyboard I have shortcuts for "goto desktop left" when I press "cv", (and "goto desktop right" when I press "m,"). This is more complex than a standard keyboard's Ctrl+Shift+Right (or whatever, as varies per OS), but it feels so convenient.
Enlightened middle way: Custom software keyboard configuration that works with any keyboard and that doesn’t have to solve invented problems like “No man there is no Home key why would you need that just use this QMK module bro and—”
I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts?
> I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts?
Timeouts. I believe it's similar to how some users use "jk" as more convenient than the escape key.
I switch between tons of tools and computers throughout the day. No way I want to customize all of them.
Sure, yes I do have a huge bashrc on my main workstation and yes I do add macros and other combos for repetitive tasks. But some fundamental things, like rebuild file, I really don’t want to be the weirdo unique guy who can’t operate someone else’s keyboard and vice versa. Missing F keys is just not a professional programmers keyboard.
If you haven’t, you really should check out the Moonlander that’s referred to elsewhere in this thread. I switched to it from a Kinesis Advantage 2 and couldn’t be happier.
People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to more.
Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to never need to use those keys?
The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard.
It seems reasonable either way to prefer one or the other. -- I suspect that most of the people enthusiastic about the smaller keyboard layouts are also into keyboard-driven workflows, and are developers who also frequently need to use the symbols accessed using layers.
> Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to never need to use those keys?
I could imagine that some people never use the function keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller keyboard understandable.
Now, people who do need all those keys and yet still go for a smaller keyboard is harder for me to understand. :)
> The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard.
The trade-offs seem a bit one-sided. Hand movements are not a big deal unless you are going constantly back and forth between the main part and the nav cluster or the numpad. And all of these custom keyboards with their 60%, 67.5%, etc. sizes are already so… boutique and expensive that I don’t think that people are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some money.
> I could imagine that some people never use the function keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller keyboard understandable.
>
> Now, people who do need all those keys and yet still go for a smaller keyboard is harder for me to understand. :)
Right, I don't think anyone goes "I need these keys, I should get a smaller keyboard".
But, no one is saying "I don't need those keys, I can use a smaller keyboard". e.g. 40% keyboards like the planck lack a number row, as well as lacking a number pad; of course they'll have to have access to type in numbers somehow.
> boutique and expensive that I don’t think that people are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some money.
Right, I don't think it's a persuasive/compelling point; but it is a benefit. Comparing the cost of getting switches for 110-keys vs for 48 keys, you can either afford nicer keys, or don't have to pay as much.
Agreed. It's fair that remapping keys is great to reduce moving hands in some cases, but it not mean dedicated keys aren't needed. I prefer to have both. Remapping feature is confused to reducing keys.
You can solve this without layers on the Moonlander, or any keyboard that allows you to load your own firmware.
For instance, you could configure your number keys to have a "press and hold" generate the corresponding F key. The 'hold' doesn't have to be very long to still easily distinguish it from "normal" typing.
You could also make it a key combo very easily. Anyone who doesn't like key combos should take up a war against !@#$%^&*()+_?:<>{} and their friends.
Hold? No thanks. How does that work when you are debugging code and have to repeatedly press the step over button. Both VS and IntellJ use F-keys as default for this. With lots of shift-modifiers already, to toggle step in, over, out.
It's a shame they couldn't get hot-swapable switches to work [1]. I have an
ErgoDox with MX Browns which hasn't seen the light of day for a while. If I were to make a large outlay again on a keyboard I'd want to buy with the switches I now know I want or no switches and fit them myself. TBH I could take a soldering iron to my ErgoDox I just haven't had the motivation.
As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future.
If you're looking for something small but more ergonomic than a Plank, take a look at the Atreus (either as a DIY or in a kit from Keyboario[1]). I also had issues with the Plank but the slight angle of the keys on the Atreus has been extremely comfortable for me.
Love the small size, but the layout is too different from a "regular" keyboard for me to consider it; the switching costs between it and my laptop would be too high. Placement of shift, super (I use caps lock as super), and tab being the biggest issues.
Yeah I'm pretty familiar with most keyboard offerings. I'm just not keen on the Atreus' lack of a surrounding case/the key caps themselves being the edge. I know it's only an atheistic quibble but I guess I'm fussy like that.
Hot swap switches would be a killer RAS feature for a KB. Throw in redundant power and multipath USB with chipkill ECC in the MCU and it can be the longest uptime device in your data center...
Hot swappable switches is a common (premium) feature in the mech keyboard world. There are many examples, but the ergodox EZ is one that is very similar to TFA, but without the contours.
What does the keyboard layout look like? Every single picture of the keyboard on this site shows either a tiny section of the keyboard where you only see like 4 keys, or there's one picture that shows the whole thing, but it's super tiny and you can't read the keys.
Does it have a decent mac layout? Is cmd+tab easy to type? Is copy/paste ergonomic? I have no idea because the pictures don't show it, and scrolling around on their site is awful (you can't quickly scan around because of the stupid animations taking 2 seconds for pictures to pop in even if you're quickly scrolling past.)
Agreed, use my kinesis for all programming work, emails etc. Have a standard staggered board on my desk as well that I swap to for 'hotkey program work' and games (so CAD/3d/photshop/videoediting).
Yes, except they have added a few keys to the new layout. A 'function' key in the bottom outside corners, and three keys on the inner edge of each hand that can be programmed to whatever.
absolutely! this is their first product so some caution is merited, and the polish most likely won't be on kinesis levels, but I really like what they've shown so far
I'll second that. I've owned two of these keyboards (one for work, one for home) for 16 years and they are still going strong. Nothing else really worked for me. They've taken me through 3 employers now.
It does take some getting used to, but once you've made the transition, you won't want to go back. You'll type faster, with almost no strain, and more accurately.
I have four of them because I keep buying secondhand boards from people who can't adjust to them for cheap... I paid full price for my first but the other three all came in between $50-150. Though after I replace their controllers they cost a bit more :)
I didn't suffer from carpal tunnel but I'd get a lot of tension in my back and shoulders leading to sharp pains and deep aches that would last for days. Started using an Advantage2 and trackball in my non-dominant hand at work and within a week the symptoms were gone (and have stayed gone for a few years). I still use a normal keyboard and mouse in my dominant hand at home but the time spent that way is much less.
I've had a basic ergo keyboard (MS sculpt ergonomic) for a while and it's much much better than regular keyboards;
However I think all ergo keyboard companies are missing the point those days:
"Just-a-keyboard" doesn't cut it anymore in the world of laptops. I want an ergonomic keyboard with a built-in Macbook-class touchpad, or ThinkPad-class trackpoint + three buttons. (I know it's tricky, especially with split keybord; conceptually it feels it almost can't be done).
Unfortunately most of software those days has pretty limited functionality if you want to use it 100% with a keyboard only. And no matter what best keyboard you have, adding a trackpad or mouse to it is just clunky and slows you down due to endless context-switching.
Are there any examples of ergo keyboard with built-in pointing device? I never found any.
The touchpad is an ergo-killer. It's just bad for your wrists to use it for any significant amount of time. It would be silly to include it in an ergo keyboard. The trackpoint is likely to be still covered by some IBM patents, and nobody uses it anyway.
If you really want a trackpad, get an Apple one and drop it in the middle of your split keyboard. It will still be bad for your wrists though.
I do have external Apple touchpad but dropping it in front of the keyboard sucks hard. It is on lower level than keyboard and ergonomy is much worse than using it with Macbook laptop (I mostly use it for two/three finger swiping). Ideal touchpad would be non-flat and nicely integrated with the curve of ergo keyboard (I know, sounds difficult with split keyboard).
How about a pointing device with a built-in keyboard? IMO it sucks but here you go: https://www.keymouse.com/
I'm adding analog thumbsticks (the style you'd find e.g. on a playstation controller) to my split keyboard. I expect them to suck too but maybe 0.5% less than the nipple on thinkpad keyboards. That one keeps tempting me because it's in a convenient positoin but it just drives me mad every time I try to get anything done with it.
I was getting hand fatigue from my laptop keyboard and decided to look into split keyboards. I tried a variety of Kinesis keyboards but I didn't like the build quality or inconsistency in features between models. I ended up settling with the Mistel MD770 which is a compact split keyboard in a traditional QWERTY layout. I found that was all that was really needed. I still use my laptop a ton, but I switch it up just enough with the split one to keep fatigue at bay. This goes the same for using a trackball with my left hand and a mouse with my right.
At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't worth it for me, nor is the cost.
I do wish it was a little better in layout, but it's not too bad. I have been impressed with it so far for the price. My biggest gripe is I wish the effort for flashy RGB lights went into key lighting instead. I still hunt and peck sometimes at night.
I had to look it up too, but big drawback is ZMK does not yet support macros. So only the Advantage360 supports macros for now, the Advantage360 Professional does not (https://zmk.dev/docs)
The go to for the ErgoMechKeyboards realm seems to be to use ZMK for these sorts of things. Power consumption and customization of certain things is better supported.
Individually programmable key backlights is nice, but imo a gimmick. That being said I never use backlights on a laptop keyboard, or mech keyboard, so I don't know what the use case for wanting ur Q to light up in a colour different to your W key would be.
Underglow of any kind is a gimmick, but backlights, programmable or not, are useful in low-light situations, to let you see where that key that you rarely use actually is.
You generally don't want Q to light up different from W, but you might want to have a low-level green glow by default and slightly brighter colors to distinguish keys around the periphery.
I very much like backlit keys. My Max Keyboard Blackbird is red, which is just right at its dimmest, although when the side panels reset I always turn them back off.
On the Kinesis Freestyle Edge, I actually like the per-key RGB lighting as well. Most of the alphanumeric and punctuation keys are red, the home keys are green, and the rest are blue. I also turn off the backlight for keys that I don't use, like PRTSC. It looks gaudy as hell, but I feel like it makes it easier to find certain keys in the Freestyle's slightly unusual layout, and to come back to home position.
The other thing I like to do with RGB lighting is to make different layouts different colors--QWERTY is all blue to distinguish it from my multi-color Dvorak.
ZMK is built on top of Zephyr while QMK is built on top of ChibiOS - I'm not super familiar with the specifics but it's my understanding that the way ZMK/Zephyr handles bluetooth and matrix scanning is like an order of magnitude more energy efficient.
The Ergo pro is an excellent keyboard. I’ve had two. Biggest problems are reliability - my first had a bunch of keys stop working in 9 months! They sent a replacement half for $99. That one stopped working 13 months later.
I would google around and read some reviews on Amazon and Reddit before committing. Sadly these issues seem common.
Their warranty support was… not good. Their COO didn’t really stand by their product. I know 4 other people who had similar experiences - they all love the keyboard but switched after it basically fell apart.
I’d buy another in a heartbeat if I knew it would last well beyond the warranty like every single other keyboard I’ve ever had over 32 years of computer ownership.
That sucks. Before buying, I read a lot of reports of key-repeating issues, but hopefully that will never be an issue for me because 1) I buy the 'Low Force edition' which uses different switches to the normal one, and 2) I spoke to a distributor and they told me it was pretty easy to fix that particular issue by cleaning the mechanism. Though I do actually have some New-in-Box spares that I snagged for really cheap, as an insurance policy!
This is one of the most frustrating product pages I've ever seen. All I want to see is high resolution photos of the keyboard from the top and back. The top view image is 400x300 pixels. The design looks nice, but not having function keys is a major turn-off. This is a keyboard for professionals, it should have a full complement of keys.
I've been waiting a long time for this and getting hyped at their Twitter drip feed but damn preorders open December 20th for potential delivery in MAY.
Yeah, I was very close to buying an Advantage 2 in the last week. Saw this, got super excited, then realized it wouldn’t be in my hands for another 5 months
Oh, finally a big keyboard manufacturer has the cojones to move Capslock away from prime keyboard space.
I have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll probably get this 360.
I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards without having to set it up.
I recently replaced the controller on my advantage2 to support qmk[0]. Using multiple layers lets me avoid the tiny rubber f-keys and move the arrow keys to hjkl along with a few other tweaks.
I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up.
Yea, I have an advantage pro but it's been collecting dust since I got a qmk keyboard. I'm not paying for proprietary firmware anymore, and since Kinesis' poor handling of their sticky modifier key bug (that existed and was well known for what, a decade or two?) I'm not keen on paying them anything at all anyway.
And in case anyone's wondering what I'm talking about, back when I was about to buy my Kinesis, just about every user report I could find online mentioned that sometimes the modifiers get stuck. I really hoped that was just a coincidence, but no, my new keyboard did the same thing, and when I asked other users I came across along the way, they all said it's a regular thing with the Kinesis Advantage.
Some tried to get Kinesis to repair it but response ranged from not acknowledging the issue at all and playing oblivious, or blaming the computer, sometimes offering to replace a circuit board in the keyboard (this does not fix the problem).
There's also this 2016 web.archive.org snapshot where Kinesis is blaming the computer for missing the upstroke (what a joke to anyone who has the slightest clue of how USB or the input stack in your favorite kernel works): https://web.archive.org/web/20160221095425/http://www.kinesi...
The reality is that it's all in their firmware and looks like it took them nearly two decades to fix (if not more, I'm not sure exactly how far back the issue goes.. I think some people claim it was also happening with the old PS/2 model!) with the release of Advantage 2.
There are a good number of people who sell pre-builts for reasonable prices (e.g. https://bastardkb.com/), but these are often one-person endeavors, and with part shortages, they've been out of stock a lot recently.
I like how they added inboard macro keys. It was odd before how the Advantage had all this programming capability but you had to come up with some new keystrokes.
Is it me or the price difference between the two makes the Pro model a no-brainer? Wireless, backlighting, better keycaps, and better programming model for only $40 more?
Not everybody wants a wireless keyboard. The least desirable thing, to me, is probably the backlight. It's clearly toggle-able though, so should be fine.
I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about keycaps, it always seemed like worrying about the paint on a car and ignoring the engine. I'm guessing they had to use the worse keycaps on the "Pro" for backlighting?
Trust me, you can immediately feel the difference and you can see the difference after at most a year. As someone who types 12+ hours every day, yeah, I care. Car paint protects the body, but is otherwise almost exclusively cosmetic. Keycaps however is what you touch. You don't touch a keyboard (in a meaningful way), so I think your analogy is flawed.
I’m a big fan of this company and their products. My Advantage 2 just broke this week. I had a really great exchange with their support today, we went from initial contact to replacement part shipped VERY quickly over just a couple emails. I’m not particularly bothered by it breaking — I have a spare and I appreciate that they can just send me a new cable assembly and call it a day. If I was on the market for something portable, I’d pickup this new one in a heartbeat.
Thumb shift keys are definitely an (incremental) improvement over the traditional placement, but they require a yet bigger commitment to retraining from the standard keyboard layout. I've been using Kinesis keyboards for 25 years, and finally this year committed to moving the shifts to the thumbs. This was worthwhile for me, but I hesitate to recommend the, ahem, shift to others.
The most puzzling default is that the 'up' key is on the left and 'down' is on the right. This is the opposite of vi and ctrl-J ctrl-K for no reason that I can imagine. I always remap it.
I must be the only person on HN that dislikes my Kinesis Advantage 2. I bought one in 2021 after the ZSA Moonlander didnt quite meet my expectations. While the keywell idea is amazing, i found that the two halves of the keyboard weren't angled towards each other enough and I still had very painful ulnar deviation.
This wasn't helped by it being so far off the keyboard tray. I don't understand how someone can use the Advantage 2 without a standing desk. Even with a keyboard tray I am unable to sit my feet flat on the ground without my thighs and knees smashing into the tray the whole time.
I ended up buying a custom board for it to run QMK, as well as replacement thumb cluster keys to try lower their height as they also caused pain. These both helped a bit but thanks to their store being closed due to Covid, I had to buy off a distributor in NZ that charged the equivelent of 500USD, before spending even more on the mods done. Unfortunately ive gone back to the Moonlander as I can at least angle the boards more after wasting around $1000 NZD.
While this will solve the positioning of the keys, the height looks like it will still be an issue for me.
>While the keywell idea is amazing, i found that the two halves of the keyboard weren't angled towards each other enough and I still had very painful ulnar deviation.
The big change with this one is it looks like tenting angle, cant and separation are completely configurable in this iteration, so if anything this one might help the issues you've had.
This keyboard is obviously marketed at people who spend considerable time typing. When I'm in VIM I never use the Function keys, but every other serious productivity app - from Jetbrains IDEs to Microsoft Excel to Photoshop makes heavy use of them, often with modifiers. All of these cases now become triple- or quadruple- buckies on keyboards that require holding a layer key to access the Function keys.
Has anyone seen a printable mockup for this keyboard layout yet? I've found (1) invaluable for ruling out which layouts are too large for my hands e.g. the Moonlander. This keyboard looks excellent - but I want to make sure I won't be overstretching if I get it.
Nice. I've been a Kinesis user for 25 years. In the 90s I added the Silicon Graphics PS/2 driver to IRIX and I had a budget for testing. I had an RSI problems. I spent most of the budget on a a Kinesis and a data hand. It has been great for helping me manage my RSI issues. Still a process to manage it.
I do have an ErgoDox to really try first. Know it is an adjustment. But it is hard not to try this...
The flatness of the ErgoDox gives me pause when compared to something like a Kinesis or a Dactyl. I think the Moonlander is gorgeous but similarly it seems like it's "a little" ergonomic but not quite at the Kinesis/Dactyl level. But I really think my next keyboard will be one of these split models, just not sure which one yet.
I've started having problems with trigger finger (can't bend fingers in to make a fist) in both my right and left hands. Has anyone fixed this sort of problem with a new keyboard/mouse? I always hear about ergonomics in relation to carpal tunnel and wrist issues, but there is very little info (evidence or even advertising claims) about finger health.
I've had trigger finger in my pinkies for maybe 10 years now.
To my knowledge nothing except for maybe surgery will cure it. Excessive typing will unsurprisingly exacerbate it. I manage by remapping keys from the pinkies (emacs + ahk + Japanese keyboard with thumb keys), and using a keyboard with ultra light switches (Fujitsu libertouch with light membranes, plus cut slits in them to make them even lighter).
I've using a Kinesis Advantage for 10 years now.
I got my Kinesis after switching to Dvorak, which maybe (maybe) improved my typing speed, but more importantly — I had to re-learn how to type, and get rid of all the quirks that come with learning how to type by yourself very early in one's life.
That is to say, it made the transition to Kinesis Advantage a breeze.
I cannot speak for how its ergonomic might or might not translate into helping with RSI, but having constant back/neck/other joints pains since I was 15, one change that I introduced to my (variable height) desk last year was, at least for me, more dramatic than any other:
I installed a keyboard drawer, which enable me to align my Mirra's arm rest with the keyboard (my desk and most other variable height desks do not go low enough to allow that).
The Advantage 360 could improve my setup as and I might get it just to be able to rest my arms at my shoulders natural width, which for me should be slightly wider than the regular Advantage.
If you hold up your empty hand you will find that your thumb can comfortably oppose any of your other four fingers in a pincer grip. This suggests that a board should have at least four keys that can be pressed with the thumb while the fingers type without any strain whatsoever.
My ideal keyboard would be shaped to accommodate the neutral state of the hand. Hitting modifier and a key should feel as comfortable as a natural pincer grip. I certainly don’t want to use my weakest finger to hold a modifier key, even if it’s on the home row. I’d try to squeeze a fifth thumb key in if it could be ergonomic, so as to have control, meta, super, shift, and space all on the thumb.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 comes closer than any other board I’ve used. I’m not entirely satisfied with the lack of adjustability of the thumb cluster though. Not everyone has the same size hands after all. It’s fairly comfortable at lap level though.
I love my Kinesis Advantage. I go back and forth between it and my other non-ergo keyboards (at the moment it's a DasKeyboard). Somehow I managed to lose the CTRL keycap while the Kinesis was storage in my attic. I emailed Kinesis and got a response back within minutes - they're sending me a new keycap for the cost of shipping / handling ($7). Can't beat the responsiveness or the fact that they didn't ask me to buy an entire keyboard keycap set ($40-50).
When my Advantage gives out, I'll likely get a 360. They are expensive, but they are built to last in my experience (I bought my first PS/2 Kinesis keyboard 20+ years ago when I did email tech support for Iomega (Zip drives - hundreds of emails a day), had it for 10 years, sold it for half of what I paid for it) and bought the USB version of the Advantage that I still use today.
Currently use the split Kinesis Freestyle2. On macOS, Karabiner's "Mouse Keys" mod allows me to control the cursor by holding the d key and using hjkl for left down up right
It's relieved much of my wrist pain, and I always flirt with the idea of trying a full on Advantage
I've felt for a long time that this would be an obvious move. I know that many people, myself included, like the Kinesis Advantage design, but wanted a split design like the Freestyle. I've even seen DIY versions.
It's great to see a ton of options for ergo mechanical keyboards out there now, but anyone have any suggestions for the best competitors/replacements for the Microsoft Sculpt? I used to think Mechanical key switches were the best, but in retrospect I must have been brainwashed by elitists. Full depth keys are irritating to use, and most switches are too loud. I love the ten-keyless, chiclet, reverse tilt style of the Sculpt, but I hear they break down quickly and aren't made anymore. I can't imagine myself using a full-depth keyboard again.
There are low-profile mechanical ones, and with a red or a black type mechanical switch you won't feel much of a difference (but with better reliability).
If you're seriously thinking about buying this go try the other Kinesis keyboards first. After you get in the ergonomic territory I find the comfort increases to be very marginal.
IMHO assuming you have no ergonomic setup at all you're better off buying a Kinesis Freestyle, a used Steelcase/Herman Miller chair, and a VESA mount for your monitor/laptop to make it eye level - all of which can be had for the cost of the Pro version.
That being said this looks like a very nice purchase for those who have the money to micro optimize.
FWIW: We had ergonomics consultants in 3-4 years ago and they recommended displays be lower because having them higher makes your eyes open wider and dry out more. If you have problems with dry eyes, maybe try lowering your display?
That's super interesting I have never heard or thought of that. I wonder how that compares to tilting your head back slightly to get the same eye:monitor angle?
This is all getting into personal preference, but AFAIK, ergonomic standards do not exactly recommend eye level, they recommend that looking in a straight line you should see over top of edge of the monitor. There's definitely some tradeoffs to be had as having the monitor too low can put stress on your neck (which translates to neck pain after a while).
That's gonna really depend on the monitor, of course. My 46" 4K, that'd be on the floor. :-) But, I've had pretty good luck with keeping my monitors lower, and I tend to have issues with dry eyes.
That sounds reasonable. What I've seen from various websites, and enjoy from personal experience, is having the top of the monitor at, or slightly above, eye level.
I agree with this take. I've used a Freestyle 2 for years and _loved_ it. I tried the Advantage 2 and it gave me headaches -- I couldn't deal with the keys being in different spots.
Switched back to Freestyle 2 and I couldn't be happier.
Base version gets PBT keycaps (yesss!) and Pro gets ABS (buuuh) Sadly not a typo. Hopefully the PBT set is available separately or (pretty please) PMK will make a custom run of the Ice-Cap.
Dye-Sublimation PBT: These are premium keycaps that are resistant to sheen and and fade. If you don’t plan to use the backlighting then this is the set you want. You have a choice of Dvorak or QWERTY legends.
Shine-Through ABS: If you want to work in a low-light environment you’ll need to select these if you want to be able to read the key legends. This set is only available with QWERTY legends at this time."
I was able to order the Pro with Dvorak PBT layout. I didn’t realize till after they’re not shine through even though the Pro has backlighting. lulz oh well
I would like to see them partner with Logitech and integrate Logitech’s wireless tech into this and get rid of the cables all together and have a much lower latency interface than BT.
Wow I’m excited to try this! I use a kinesis split keyboard. I like it but it is a bit bulky and has a bunch of keys I never use. I love that it is split and tented, both of these aspects helped with my shoulder and arm pain.
I tried to use the advantage 2 but because it was neither split nor tented it hurt my shoulder and arm so much that I couldn’t use.
This seems like the best of both worlds.
I was considering building a corne keyboard but now I can try this instead.
I was having some serious wrist and shoulder pain. Turns out it was related to my mouse which I kept to the right side of my keyboard. I moved it directly in front of the keyboard so it's in the middle and my pains disappeared. I may still take a look at this keyboard because the older you get the more you need. I've now been at the keyboard since 1979 and that's some wear and tear.
Try a trackball mouse. I sport a Logitech Ergo MX with a 30deg tilt. Similar to you it's in front of the keyboard. The fact you don't need the mouse to move at all is amazing.
I picked up a Kinesis Advantage on Craigslist for $100 a year ago and that's easily been the best $100 I've spent. I've found myself wishing I could travel with it, but it's so huge that's really not feasible. This new design makes that look more possible, and the bluetooth option is a huge plus. So I'll definitely be purchasing.
I had an Ergo way back, and it was a decent keyboard until something failed on the bottom row. I've since moved on to building a Ergodox in 2014 that I've been daily using since.
This model looks really slick, and adds a number of nice innovations to the form factor. I'd reconsider if my current keyboard wasn't so bullet-proof.
I have Ergodox Ez, it looks like this one is slightly updated version. Pinky row is lowered (which I think is an advantage, I have wondered for a long time why the pinky row is too high in EZ.). It has Bluetooth which I would prefer.
It has some ZMK firmware which I haven't studied, I have only used QMK, otherwise looks good.
The pinky columns could be lowered a lot more. After a bit of testing I moved them a full row height down on my keyboard as that seems to be the sweet spot for me. It's weird for a minute or two but feels natural quickly.
Love my Advantage2, and only complaint is the USB cable has insufficient strain relief, and I've already replaced two cables, almost once a year. So bluetooth is a welcome sight.
Am I the only one that prefers the monolith body? I typically rest my keyboard on my knees when typing, which is difficult for a split layout
I can tell you for a fact that my Microsoft Ergo Sculpt instantly alleviated some wrist pain I was having that I thought might end up ending my career.
I've had such a bad experience with the macbook layering (touchbar too), I feel like it might be more hassle having to turn the layer on and then press the key.
Whereas with a dedicated fn row, it would be a lot easier. I'm quite happy with my adv2, but I can't wait for the reviews.
if the layer button is easily accessible, it isn't so bad imo. I have a function layer available just by moving my thumbs one button "inward" from resting position and I love it. It seems I like layers more than a lot of people though so *shrug.
I thought about this a bit more, and I'll give it a shot. I might see if I can contol my mouse using a layer (saw a person on youtube do something similar, but I forgot which video it was :/). That would actually force me to use the layers and see how it feels like in my daily workflow.
Very cool. If this were out a year ago, I may have gone for it instead of my Moonlander. The curved keywells is big differentiator. It would have been hard to have committed to a switch style, though. It took me some trial and error to settle on my Zilents.
Question about the EZ: I have one too, but a major problem I have with it is that even when not tented, it's a _significant_ distance above my desk. The EZ wrist rests don't work for me (my palms move when typing, and the silicone deters palm movement for me), but when the keyboard is tented I have a larger problem: where do I rest my arm? Do I just put my elbow on the table? That's a very small surface area to rest my full arm on.
How do you deal with large amounts of tenting?
EDIT: my current solution is two books, one under either arm...
Damn, this looks great. I'm very happy with my ErgoDoxes but the domed keys on this would make me seriously consider it if I were buying today. IMO, the split keyboard is super important for not messing up your shoulders with hunched over typing.
I don't mind the lack of function keys, I have a lot of 40-60% keyboards that lack function keys - but from the pictures, FN+6 is F7… Yikes. Off by one.
Why. Every layered keyboard is FN+1-9 = F1-9
I'm sure you can reprogram it to correct this, but this is just silly.
I've had a kinesis advantage pro ( same as in article but single not split ) for some 15 years. It's awesome and my only complaint was that my hands were too close together. I think I might upgrade to this.
Maybe this was asked elsewhere but can anyone comment on what it’s like switching back and forth between keyboard layouts when you don’t have your Kinesis? Eg on phone or using someone else’s computer in a pinch.
Muscle memory is a wonderful thing. You don’t struggle to wear two different pairs of shoes or ride two bikes.
With enough practice (three months for me) I can type easily on phone keyboards, kinesis/moonlander, and qwerty laptop keyboards.
Do yourself a favor and take care of your hands. Split, ergonomic, welled, and ortholinear keyboards make a noticeable difference for finger fatigue, RSI, etc. my wrist tenderness is gone after using my kinesis for 3 years and has not returned after using the ZSA moonlander for 3 months.
I checked with Kinesis sales, and they said they’ll be offering the PBT dyesub keycaps, for those of us who’d like to buy them for our old Advantage2 keyboards. No word yet on when they’ll be available though.
Man, I wish they had differenter keyswitch options. I've used a bunch of Cherry MX styles in the past, but after switching to electrocapacitve Topre-clones, I don't want to go back.
Looks really great! How does it compare with the Keyboardio Model 01/100?
I think i like the sculpted shape better on the Kinesis, otoh the keycaps on the Keyboardio seem nicer
I wonder why they’re using Gateron switches rather than Cherry ones? Is it just about cutting costs, or is there a solid technical reason for using clones rather than the originals?
I love Gateron Oranges. I've had both Cherry Browns and the Gateron Browns, and I actually prefer the Gaterons. I couldn't give you a quantitative answer, but I swapped them into the same hot-swappable keyboard and I liked the Gaterons. I found the Orange Gaterons, and I am sticking with them.
This looks like a fun way to test ZMK. Most of the boards out there that support it are tiny and going or the same price, so why not get something bigger in a nice form factor?
Kinesis has a 60-day money back guarantee if you buy from them, minus the cost of shipping. These are also sold on Amazon, which has a really good return policy so you can return the item with no hassle if you don’t end up liking it.
Of course, this is all presuming that
A. You have enough capital to buy the keyboard and are ok with not having $300+ for a month or two
B. you can get used to the keyboard within a 30 day period and get a feel for how you’d like to use it full time
Unfortunately their store was closed thoughout most of 2021 due to COVID. I orded a Advantage 2 from the sole NZ distributor who do not honour that deal. Cost 500USD only to discover it was very uncomfortable for an "ergonomic" keyboard. I dont think my shoulders are particularly far apart but I still had massive pain due to the ulnar deviation caused by the keywells not sitting at an angle that suited by shoulders.
Another few hundred dollars in mods to get QMK and lower thumb keys and while some other issues were resolved, I cannot type on it for more than a minute without intense pain in my left wrist.
Kinesis Advantage 2 saved my career as a developer. I have nothing but praise for the company and the products they make. I will definitely try out the 360.
This looks great! I’m happy with my ergodox ez, but now that kinesis has a split keyboard with qmk support it’s nice to see the competition in this space.
That seems unlikely, and it's not really how Drop usually works. They collect pre-order payments before manufacturing. This is probably an unlimited group buy.
Pre-oders on Drop.com usually stay open for a month or longer.
This. Possibly my best computer "upgrade" was switching to Dvorak at 16 years old. Took about 2 weeks. It makes all keyboards much more comfortable, especially laptops. I would recommend Dvorak first, before starting down the path towards an ergonomic keyboard.
On Dvorak, your fingers automatically drift back to the home row because of how the letters are arranged, so I found myself touch-typing after several months with no specific effort. Plus, iOS only has QWERTY, so the phone keyboard keeps me in practice enough to use QWERTY on off occasions.
Dvorak plus the Kinesis Advantage, for me at least, is the most comfortable combination. Speed is probably a bit slower than a flat keyboard, but it's about long-term comfort, not speed, when I type as much as I have to every day.
I don't think there is universal agreement for Dvorak being more ergonomic than Qwerty. Qwerty was designed to make key presses with alternative hands statistically likely (to benefit mechanical type writers). But this is also a good ergonomic property. For example, common English works like "the" can be typed with one hand with Dvorak, but this is not necessarily ergonomic. It causes one to contort the hand more than if "the" is typed with alternative hands.
This is completely wrong; I think you must be thinking of something other than Dvorak.
"The" requires both hands on Dvorak, and "th" is the easiest right-hand finger-roll¹, equivalent to "kj" on Qwerty. E is one of the strongest keys on the left hand.
On Qwerty, this extremely common English word requires moving the fingers away from the home position, and the T (second most frequent English letter) is one of the longer stretches.
Taking your most recent longer comment (Category Theory), typed on Qwerty there are 354 alternate-hand transitions. On Dvorak, there are 451.
With the simplest fragment, "there are even books about it", and the left hand shown in capital letters:
Qwerty: ThERE ARE EVEn BookS ABouT It.
Dvorak: thErE ArE EvEn bOOKs AbOUt It.
If you touch-type Qwerty, try typing "Kjdod aod d.dl nssv; ansfk gke".
> This is completely wrong; I think you must be thinking of something other than Dvorak.
Yes, apologies, my example was wrong and I was probably confusing Dvorak with another layout. I would like to see some better statistics on hand alternation though, because qwerty is quite good at this (as Wikipedia states) and it would be interesting to see where it actually sits relative to the other layouts.
it's not just left vs right hand. i don't mind using both hands. there are positions on the keyboard that are easier to access than others. for example, home row keys are the easiest to press while keys near the edges of the keyboard above and below the pinky are more difficult. as a dvorak typist for 20 years, it seems to me that dvorak maps frequently pressed keys and combinations of keys in zones that are easier to access compared to qwerty. over my lifetime, i'm certain this has paid dividends.
dvorak was optimized for comfort while qwerty was optimized for a mechanical device. dvorak is like shitting on a bidet and to me it's very strange that folks prefer to smear poop on themselves with paper.
I'm guessing it's one of the new ones in the center (between G and H).
I only use escape in vim though, and there I mapped the jk key combination to escape instead. (:map! jk <esc>) I'm trying to stop using the physical escape key completely. If it's not where I expect it that will go faster.
The function keys do almost nothing in Linux so I won't miss them.
My main regret with my Advantage keyboard is that I should have bought it 20 years earlier. So I could totally see myself getting this. Even if I think 3.2 pounds is a little on the heavy side.
The Kinesis "contoured" design with thumb clusters is almost 30 years old, and itself was a clone of the Maltron design - so I think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone of the Kinesis.
> so I think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone of the Kinesis.
Seems to me like the Ergo almost exactly cloned the thumb cluster, and the Kinesis 360 almost exactly cloned the Ergo split design. They are clearly both drawing inspiration from each other, and there isn't one "clone"
Making a split version is kind of an obvious option and Ergodox was _far_ from the first fully split keyboard. Two people can both have the same idea (which is why patents are patently unfair).
Been using the Advantage for decades. Splitting the two sides is a terrific idea. Always wanted to mount a split keyboard to the sides of a zero-gravity chair so will try it out with this.
Two features I wished they would offer:
1. A nub-mouse like the Thinkpad
2. A touchpad in the center of the keyboard (not needed for the split)
Yes, I've even given them feedback asking for a nib or something somewhere. I used velcro to attach a trackpad to the middle of one of my Advantage2 keyboards and it helps. (If I had my personal choice, it'd probably be a trackball instead of a nib.)
I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.