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Ask HN: Haven't worked for a while, best guide/advice to start a hobby project?
407 points by HAL9OOO on Dec 25, 2019 | hide | past | favorite | 141 comments
I'm in a weird place. I used to work as a developer but never thought I was that great. Most of my jobs were small features, fixing bugs, etc. Honestly I was quite lazy and coasted somehow. I’m trying to change all of that now.

I feel like I'm behind 'bootcamp grads' because they can actually push deploy real code.

I have a bunch of hobby project ideas, for example one tries to use the Spotify API and the MapBox API, but every time I start I get overwhelmed with what stack I should use, and how to actually get a ‘real’ application out. It’s hard to explain. I have a lot of anxiety and analysis paralysis about this.

I’m hoping for some great resources to actually build something and learn at the same time, so I can get my confidence up and actually get some MVPs going so I can ‘learn by doing’.

I feel like every tutorial I look at either:

1. Starts out great, explaining stuff but then becomes outdated/frustrating by the end (ex: https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2019/03/spotify-app-vue-nuxt-javascript/)

2. Is WAY too basic. I don’t want to learn basic syntax over and over.

3. Keeps making me switch tech stacks. I just want to use Python/Flask or learn JS/Node. I want to use VUE just because it’s new and it’s docs seem good. I don't even know what's out there anymore or what's good about it. I just want some consistency. Everyone says the stack doesn't matter too much anyway. Just want it to be fun...

RealPython and FullStackPython seem like they have good tutorials so far but what I’ve been googling so far (Spotify Vue Tutorial Project Setup) has not come up with stuff that clicks with me.

Sorry for the ramble… I just want to work without feeling bored or overwhelmed. Any suggestions? Thanks ~

Thanks for all the replies guys! It's going to take me a while to read through all of them and process them. I guess this is the benefit of having eyes looking at your post on Christmas Eve, people feel like helping :).

Happy Holidays Everyone~

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Just get a random swe job and see how it goes. Worst case you get fired.

Also find a team of nice people like you.

I know how you feel.

It takes time to design interesting work. People often say follow your passions but sometimes the passion requires a brief period of tedious exploration while you set things up.

Through trial and error, you can slowly sketch out a landscape of interesting problems, like glossy monuments rising above the horizon. That’s how it feels anyways when you finally start making some progress; when you finally have fun problems to work on.

But in the beginning you almost have to guess what you think will be interesting. And there’s no guarantee it’ll be useful, but I’ve found a lot of times, the experiences and lessons you’ve learned in one project sets you up for the next.

Usually the things that annoy you the most tend to be the best starting places for interesting problems. And it’s important they’re interesting because it’s easy to lose motivation on things you don’t think are important. Then you’ll feel so guilty for not working, you’ll start working on uninteresting problems just so you can be productive (and that’s when the real trouble really starts). Because tedious, boring labor that slowly invades your life isn’t much different from slavery, the major difference being it tends to be more abstract and invisible.

Very, very good comment! The past two years I've worked on three different pet projects: first one that was fun and interesting but where I was dependent on another developer, who ran out of time, so that project stalled.Then a project I did simply because I saw an opening in the market, but which wasn't fun or interesting enough - this meant I wasn't motivated enough to go the extra mile, or to pivot slightly when necessary. Project alive but going nowhere. For my 3rd attempt I sat down and tried to think of something that was fun and interesting, that I also thought MAY have market potential. It's still too early to say how it's going, but I notice I have no trouble at all fixing all the tiny, boring little details that need fixing here. It's just so much more rewarding.

> Instead of ‘finding your passion,’ try developing it, Stanford scholars say


I've been there before. After getting burnt out on my startup, I spent about half a year traveling and trying out other hobbies not doing any coding at all.

When I got back to it I felt a little bit lost as to what to do, but doing these things helped me get back into the habit:

- Find a good project-oriented book and just follow along. In my case this was "Elements of Computing Systems: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles", but according to your interests and skill-levels there's plenty of good project-oriented books out there. I think this is good to do in parallel with your own side projects, because it gives you structure that the writers gave some pedagogical thought towards, and will thus help you gain confidence by solving problems and building something substantial over several weeks or months. This confidence will then put you in a better headspace for your self-directed work.

Don't engage in the online tutorials, where the author maybe wrote in a couple hours over a weekend. Instead, find well-respected books and courses that the authors poured serious effort into and that people consistently cite as having been influential to them.

- Read and engage with activities besides programming. I think one problem beginning programmers have is that they get so obsessed with just consuming programming related content. While the concentrated education you'll get out of this is great, from my experience reading about programming and tech doesn't lead to interesting ideas about things to make. What I think does lead to interesting ideas is cultivating curiosity about the world, and feeding it through reading and exploring.

- Study good software. In most creative disciplines there's a huge emphasis on studying the works of the masters of the art. This is so students can 1) understand the discipline's history and 2) develop good taste. The creation of software, whether you view it from a coding angle or from a UI angle, is mostly a design discipline. So taste matters a lot. I recommend studying the history of computing and finding good old artifacts to study(history is good because the excitement the pioneers felt might rub off on you, and help you see the field from a fresh perspective). Any software that you personally enjoy using is worth studying like this, but I think paying attention to the classics helps too.

- Learn how to design. This might seem like a distraction, but improving your design skills even just a bit can really help with making your ideas more engaging. The design community also has a lot of practices and advice on how to come up with good ideas that are worth seeking out.

- Find creators whose work you enjoy, follow them, and study their work. The most creative and prolific people I know all have one or more creators who were massive inspirations for them, and that they obsessed over and often spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to emulate. Too much focus on the copying part can be a hindrance in the short term, but being sensitive to these chains of inspiration, and seeking out who inspired the people who inspired you, can lead you down interesting paths. Find networks of creatives locally, on Twitter, slack groups, wherever, and engage with them, and contextualize your work in their framework(whether it's startups, art, or anything).

- Read up on creativity! IMO while self-help and pop-psychology books/ can be counterproductive if you spend too much time in them, in small doses they can be useful for analyzing your habits and practices. I recommend reading visakanv's threads about these topics: https://www.notion.so/a-list-of-visakanv-s-threads-1a6ed25cf...

This is a very common problem. It is good to learn but it is even better to focus and push things out. This is particularly applicable if your application going down really doesn't hurt badly. Users / Customers care very less about the stack and many things that developers focus too much on.

There is way too much of good dev stuff to decide the "best one". Just pick one and move forward.

Read this thread ... [Ask HN: Successful one-person online businesses? | Hacker News](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21332072) .... there are quite a few examples of people cranking out useful stuff with basic tech (primitive).

It may make sense to just push out and launch if it is anywhere in your realm of interest. And focus less on novelty and differentiation. Eat into the existing market if you are stuck finding a way to differentiate.

I've analysed 15 products, in an area I'm working on, over the past few months and they all seem to be doing fine. There is nothing particularly different among them and think they focus on market and selling to people who would use them to keep the lights one.

There are a couple of good comments, so I won't repeat what they said.

Find something you are actually passionate about. It doesn't have to be a big thing. You shouldn't care if it is a cool thing, or what other people think of it.

When I'm interviewing, I love when people showcase stuff they enjoyed building, rather than something bigger they made following a tutorial.

Here is an example of a really small project I enjoyed working on - https://muffinman.io/vertigo/ It was so fun, and I learned some canvas/svg stuff I never touched before. Even now when I look at it, it brings a smile to my face.

Another thing I think you should do is to document the whole process and write one or series of blog posts. It will help you understand the whole thing better, and help people in similar situation.

Good luck and please share with HN whatever you end up making!

Thanks man! I'm thinking about writing a few blog posts too, even if no one reads it I think it would be a motivator for me. I'll definitely post my projects on here when they get to an alpha state :)

Forget tech stacks. Just pick the simplest idea you can think of that you would actually use yourself, that seems to not be a complex software product. And do it!

I can assure you that the simplest of products will not result in the simplest code / stack.

It is important that you also personally want to use this thing, because when the going gets tough, you will stick with it.

And really finish it. Most learning is done while reducing bug count. Prototypes are easy in comparison.

I love this insight/observation.

Agreed. My personal recommendation is to not worry about which stack is good but getting really really good at any one of the stacks. Mastery counts a lot.

If I were you...

1. Start with something simpler & work on building up your fundamentals. Build momentum & confidence.

2. Recognize your struggle is part of the journey of learning. When you read and don't understand a word, you look it up. Take the time to fight through the abstraction & learn some core concepts when you don't know what something is. It's ok to get distracted & go down a mini rabbit hole.

You may need to learn 5 things that seem unrelated to the task at hand. Those 5 things aren't a waste, you'll likely find the concepts useful later. I always did.

Consider not using some frameworks to remove some of the magic.

Build something you want so you finish it.

> Consider not using some frameworks to remove some of the magic.

Learning a framework for a single project can sometimes mean a lot of learning abstractions that you'll never need again, and that didn't teach you any new core concepts.

I would only learn tools like React or Vue if I intended to use them for work, which is what I did. If I'm doing a fun project, I write native code because it's more fun to figure stuff out on my own and I come across more novel concepts and fundamental understandings that way. If I'm building a new project I will use familiar tools/frameworks, so that I can remove the noise of learning new stuff and focus on the build.

Frameworks take time and iterations to get used to and use effectively, they're best if you're going to be building a lot of things using them. They're more like a box of weirdly shaped tools that you like.

For the most part I agree, but there are times where a framework can teach a valuable pattern that, even if you don't end up using it, expands your view of what's possible. Vue helped me understand events a lot better than I did before, and Redux is good to try at least once simply because it's such a different way of thinking about state mutation compared to what you'd usually come up with using just native code.

In my city, the programming unemployment rate is, like, 2%. If you haven't worked for awhile, it's because of your job hunting skills, not your tech stack. So, if having a job is reason you ask this, my answer is: read some books about job hunting. Don't worry about programming right now.

But, and I think, more importantly, you are taking this way too seriously. Programming is fun. Write something fun. Me? I think NodeJS and VueJS are fun. Write a node app that draws ascii images in your terminal. Or, figure out how to store stuff in a database (Mongo is also fun). Wire up a VueJS app that accesses it. (Then throw it all out. Your first is never good enough to keep.)

OR, go to Glitch.com and party around there. It's a very sociable place to do some coding and engage with other people who want to program. Lots of ideas there. You can pick up Node apps and extend them. That's a lot of fun.

OR, do CodeWars.com. Pick your favorite language and do some exercises. If you aren't inspired after a week of doing that, find another profession. You're not a programmer.

OR, read GitHub. As before, if you aren't inspired after a week concentrating on the cool things other people do, forget about programming, it's not in your blood.

But you will. Programming is the most fun you can have. It has all the ingredients. Always new. Good results. Fun community. You can do it alone and sitting down.

And relax.

I don't agree with this advice. Why do I need to be inspired by what people are already doing? Someone is already doing that. We don't need more. Fred Rogers said "I went into television because I hated it so". I can't think of a better reason to enter a field.

Pick your favorite language and do some exercises. If you aren't inspired after a week of doing that, create your own language! All of the languages we have today still suck.

Read GitHub. If you aren't inspired after a week concentrating on the things other people do, pick something more worthwhile! Those things are only being done because someone chose to do them. They have no more right to direct the future of computation than you or anyone else.

Give me more programmers who didn't get here by the traditional path. I want the next generation of software from people like Alan Kay, Larry Wall, Bill Atkinson, and Tim Berners-Lee.

> In my city, the programming unemployment rate is, like, 2%. If you haven't worked for awhile, it's because of your job hunting skills, not your tech stack.

No, it is not due to job hunting skills. It's more like "culture fit" and other types of discrimination.


I’ll second this advice: have fun.

A few years ago I wrote a Python script that took a TSV tile as input and randomly selected a secret Santa matchup that wouldn’t put partners together and then email them their matches with a backup to a file so nobody would know the matches. I could find out, but didn’t have to know the list to get everyone set up.

It’s been a ton of fun improving on that year over year, and it was a great learning experience.

It definitely doesn’t have to be a serious endeavour.

That said, initiating an open source library that fills a previously unfilled need is also a great learning experience. Plus, other people get to see and critique your code in public—it makes you give some things a second thought.

And yes, also in both cases I agree: relax.

you can be working as a developer without 'working'

It sounds like you need to figure out some basic goals first. If you're focused on finding a job, there are a lot of mid-size companies that could put you to work building small features and bug fixes and be perfectly happy. It might make more sense to find a company that uses the stack you are already familiar with. However out of date you are, there is a company still using that stack!

If you want to just have a hobby and expand your horizons, the most important thing is finding something FUN to do.

But forcing a hobby project in hopes of it leading to a job, if that's what you are trying, sounds like a recipe for disappointment.

You've already gotten a lot of good replies, but I was in your exact position and I want to share another perspective of what worked specifically for me.

First and foremost, stop worrying about making a "real application". Don't concern yourself with making this something that people will actually use, or something that could potentially make money, or the next Facebook. Just stop. You're never going to actually build anything if you keep second guessing whether or not it's a good thing to build. Instead, just acknowledge that your goal is to build something and to learn from it and have fun building it. If it turns out that your app becomes "real", then that is a huge bonus! But focusing on that as a priority is just going to be a blocker for you.

Second, if you are in a position where you are trying to "learn" new skills, then I would actually advise against starting with trying to build your Spotify/MapBox idea. Instead, pick an already existing something that either a) you already know a lot about or b) is a common app that people build (like a blog site or a reddit/HN clone). I know that sounds frustrating and not ideal, but I went through the same ordeal and it helped a lot. The reason for this is that there are tons of good tutorials for building something like a blog or social network site with all kinds of tech stacks, so that will help. The other reason is because you already have a feature roadmap laid out for you, and this will help get past the analysis paralysis.

For example, you can build an HN clone and just start off small by building the front page which links to other news sites. Then you add a login system. Then add comments. Then add points and ranking. Each step is small enough to actually be feasible, but probably tough enough that it will teach you new aspects (such as teaching you how to do logins correctly, or how to store comments effectively in a database, etc). And at each step, you still have the opportunity to add your own improvements as you see fit, so even though you are essentially building an HN clone, you can still add your own flair to it and explore your own personal interests.

I did the above, and I found that it was immensely helpful in actually getting past the analysis paralysis stage that it sounds like you are stuck at. After I built a simple news aggregator clone, I found that the process had taught me enough to then actually build one of my own personal ideas, and because I now had the foundational knowledge from building the earlier 'simpler' app, it was much easier to get a jump start on my own app.

Just wanted to second the recommendation to build something that already exists first. Like how artists do master studies, or still life, software developers can learn a lot by actually building something that already exists. It helps educate you about the nature of how certain things are built, and what considerations they have.

My first web project in Go was an email signup server. The second was a blog engine that still powers https://junglecoder.com. Both projects taught me a lot, and the blog took quite a while to finish up.

Getting something out the door and in front of other people, even if it's just your friends, is key.

Something I have found really great is to purposely build something you will never ever even be remotely tempted to ship but that has some degree of complexity to it. What's great about this approach is you are never forced to be bogged down in details that aren't relevant to you.

If you ship a product and I mean like really try to ship it with a launch and everything, you will spend a tonne of time on a) non-technical tasks that don't matter to your day job and b) technical tasks that don't matter to your day job.

For example graphic design, copywriting, marketing etc. All great stuff if you want to go the route of actually trying to launch a company. Terrible to get caught up in if you just want to learn to write production grade systems.

Technical tasks you have to spend time on for stuff you actually will ship do have some value but really it can be limited. You might spend time to build deployment pipelines or auth or HA deployments etc. All of that stuff is great IMHO and I personally value having done a lot of it but to a lot of engineers who work on established code bases and just never ever touch that stuff I feel like it's not a huge value add.

With a project you know you'll never ship you can focus only on the parts you want to. You can then layer lots of little mini-projects into it and use it to try out new things over time.

I guess I'd recommend trying to ship a real project solo at least once too. It gives you perspective.

So, I wouldn't worry a great deal about which stack land in. Once you get familiar with HTTP, you can switch languages later, if you feel the need.

If you're wanting an exercise to help you build up to the confidence to approach your own webapp projects, I actually recommend porting kbwiki (https://github.com/yumaikas/kbwiki) to the stack of your choice, if you're ok with reading Nim (it looks like python, though it's rather different under the hood).

The reason I suggest this is that kbwiki covers both basic HTTP auth, and running as an HTTP client. kbwiki also is a real, but small web app. I use it to power https://idea.junglecoder.com and https://feed.junglecoder.com. If there is another project that does a lot of what you want to do, porting it to a different language would be a good exercise.

After that, think of an idea of something you want to use, and then try to pick off a small part of it. Working with the Spotify API, maybe just try to build something that lets you list your playlists, or maybe just one playlist. Then, build out one more piece, and continue doing so.

Though, one thing I will say: Working with 3rd APIs is often much harder than just building out something that doesn't rely on them, due to having to implement authentication. So if you have a hobby idea that doesn't rely on a 3rd party API, I would bias towards that for your first project.

See if you can find a friend or someone to discuss ideas in more depth. Having that second opinion can help unstick you, or help refine your ideas. I'd be willing to discuss over email, if you'd like an ear (yumaikas94 at the google one).

Also, be willing to do things that don't follow best practices as such (as long as you're cognizant of the fact). I've written 3 webapps in the last year, none of which implement their own authentication, because they are designed for one single trusted user. I have a Jenkins status checker I use at work that relies on me copying the "remember me" cookie out of my browser into the filesystem.

For now, don't worry about being "current" techwise, worry about building up a portfolio of different things. Get building, and eventually, as you build projects, you'll find a groove, and then, if you want to build things that are sophisticated on the front end, you'll end up looking into React/Vue/Angular. If you like backend webapps, Python, Go, or JS/Node will start to stand out.

If you take a left turn, and decide to instead go into desktop apps (I highly recommend making at least one or two in your life, but no rush), C# or Java might look attractive.

My overall point with the last two paragraphs is this: Learn tech that will let you build what you want to make, not just because it has a lot of articles written about it.

If you are wanting to pick up Vue, choose node.js and start with the basic tutorial on setting up your project and project organization. Then do a tutorial on state management in Vue. At that point you should just get started on a project and stop doing tutorials until you run into something you don't understand. To get moving I like to pick a piece of functionality. In this case, login could be a good place to start. Whether you want to use third party auth or roll your own, it is a good place to start. Get login and state management working because once you have that running you can start implementing other functionality pretty fast.

The key is to pick a piece of functionality that does two things, one: simple but once completed is a component you'll need for your project, two: at the end of implementing that functionality there is something that works which you can build off. That's why I suggest doing those two tutorials and then starting with login and state management, it will help you move forward. Don't get ahead of yourself, pick small components of functionality and just start knocking them out. Don't think about the millions of options.

On your tech stack, pick whatever is most common for your stack, don't try to be complex when all you need is to get started. For example, node.js, postgresql or mongodb, Vue. That will give you the widest set of tutorials and help online and in the end it is extremely capable platform for nearly anything you want to build. And all of those are marketable skills.

edit: fixed a word

Thanks Davis! That seems look a good start. Sometimes I just need someone to tell me what to do I feel to put things into perspective. I'll start with the basic Node/Vue tutorials and focus on getting something deployed, implementing login and then some basic api integration and move from there.

I guess I can always refactor the code when I start learning about more complicated stuff.

Awesome. And yep, that's the idea, just get it moving and as you go through the project and learn more you'll find things you can (or want to) refactor to make better. But at least you moved forward.

You aren't alone, we all need a little nudge in a specific direction sometimes. :)

the problem i have with this approach is it's reinventing the wheel.

continuous integration, testing infra, rolling upgrades, deployment, logging, analytics on that logging, should all get solved problems I get out of the box in 2019

not surprised on the downvotes. Many devs will choose reinventing the wheel over using existing solutions. Their competitors will be on to release 7.9 while they're still trying to figure out how to ship version 0.2 without losing all the data from 0.1

Batteries included systems are a force multiplier. Engineers like writing code more than shipping. Go to any game jam and watch the teams using Unreal or Unity. Their progress dwarfs those that start from zero. While the teams using the full engines are adding game play features the teams starting from scratch are trying to figure out how to load 3D data or debug why their graphics aren't on the screen yet.

It's no different with apps. A good app framework or web app framework gets you to a working state ready to just work on what makes your app different. Starting from scratch means you're still trying to figure out how to get your DB backed up while the other devs are adding features.

OP isn't trying to win a competition, it sounds like they're trying to learn to be a better developer. I know way too many devs (and have been one myself) who can use a batteries-included system until something goes wrong, but because they have no idea how such a system is constructed they can't debug it, or they don't understand why something isn't performing well.

It goes with the adage that every developer should implement a linked list exactly once—you should use the standard library from then on, but if you don't understand what's going on under the hood, you'll misuse it eventually.

> Go to any game jam and watch the teams using Unreal or Unity. Their progress dwarfs those that start from zero.

Pretty sure I would come out on top with my CoD:MW download then.

The point of game jam is having fun while challenging yourself doing what you like. If you can't animate a sprite or draw a wire mesh without game libs then by all means use Unity, Unreal or even Scratch. Nobody's judging. Just don't read too much into it.

if your job is about making wheels, you kinda have to reinvent the wheel. Just driving the car teaches you nothing about them

I always felt this way about graphics programming. I really wanted to make video games, but it seemed like all the books I read went from easy to "speaking a foreign language" from one chapter to the next.

I felt that way learning React not long ago. I feel that way learning any new tech. I'm pretty sure that's what learning feels like.

You got some great advice. One other thing I'll offer that may not occur to you as a self-learner: find a mentor who's done it before. You can often find people willing to help at local meetups if you have them in your area. A mentor can help with the elements that make you feel overwhelmed so you can get on with the business of learning a side project. This isn't necessary, but it can save you a lot of time on the road to building confidence.

When I was in this spot, it was easy to feel like I was "behind" or everything was too hard. I don't know if this helps, but it's something everyone goes through learning new things. Take your time. Go slow. Don't give up.

I know this pain of being undecided on what to choose. Though the difference being I do have a core stack I build with, it's just when I do hobby projects I often want to try something new and end up exactly feeling like you feel, too much choice! But I've always found when I have a problem, I work better, so if you have MVP idea, flesh it out, define it best you can, then force yourself to choose. If you can't choose, use Node / Vue. It's all javascript and no matter what choices you make later, building something significant in javascript is going to serve you well. If you need a database, choose postgresql, getting some core sql skills is very useful, even if you end up moving to nosql dbs. If you need cheap hosting, try digital ocean. This is a bit different from my core stack, but I have built things with those things, and they are fine, not necessarily the best but have a lot of transferable knowledge and plenty of people use them so there is a LOT of info on how to do most anything you will want to do.

I'm sorry you are feeling anxiety and somehow "less". I've felt like that. I know others have too. It sucks, but its common and it will pass.

As for everything else, the biggest lesson that I have learned from my mentors this year is that everything is relative. For every choice you can make as a developer there are pros and cons. This language or that one. This framework or another, the list goes on and on and on. In fact making choices is a big part of everything we do. Naming variables is hard, primarily because we have to choose the best name. But how do we choose?

Learning how to make an informed choice is a powerful skill. The power I think, is from learning how to make a choice that once made, is satisfying to you. In other words the choices are hard and anxiety inducing: because they are choices. A silly assessment, but true. Pain is unfortunate because it hurts. Choices create anxiety becuase we have to make a choice and live with an unknown outcome.

So the hack, the trick, is to spend less effort on choosing and the majority of the effort on defining the context around the choice.

To your final statements: "I just want to work without feeling bored or overwhelmed. Any suggestions?"

I would say you should really evaluate the space of boredom, and the feeling of being overwhelmed. Spend most of your time just defining this. Give it a day or to and think about it, sleep on it.

Were you bored because you were just doing tutorials for no clear reason? >> Pick a project or outcome not an implementation.

Do you feel overwhelmed when you don't know what is next? >> Find a mentor.

Obviously these are just guesses, I don't know your situation. And if you just want another human to bounce ideas off of let me know.

You could plan some small steps if you’re feeling overwhelmed. After reading some of the other replies, I came up with a few steps, tailor as needed:

1. Write down your goals or ideas for features. If you want to learn a specific framework, write that down as a /constraint/

2. (Optional depending on your style and background) Write down 10 or so requirements, if it feels natural to do so

3. Draw some block diagrams and flow charts. Keep it simple and think about which major components you need

4. Now you can survey frameworks. If you had one in mind as a constraint, does it still make sense? Pick whatever frameworks, libraries and development tools you need to solve your problems. If you don’t know what you need for a component, write down TBD.

5. Find a peer, and justify 1-4 to them. You will likely find most of your decisions make sense, but now you’ll have confidence and maybe make a few changes.

6. Now you can set up your development environment. You might find a few pain points already here and make a few more changes to your plan.

I wouldn’t worry about the popular hipster stacks, but rather shoot for something productive and preferably slow moving. There is a reason things like Django or Ruby on Rails help people actually get things out the door. They come with a lot of batteries included, and while it may not be the hip (or even smartest) way to do things, that doesn’t really matter nearly as much as getting shit done. stacks like Flask or anything JS backend really, will make you write tons and tons of code that other frameworks will give you for free.

At the end of the day, not a single one of your users are going to care about you tech-stack.

I work in the public sector, and we have a lot of legacy stuff. One of our most popular web apps, that always scores really high in user saturation when we review/audit, runs ASP web-forms. That’s some really old shit, and you really shouldn’t pick that up in 2019, but the point is that no one who uses it cares.

Is there a better term for "hipster stack"? Rails and Django were most certainly considered hipster when they first came out.

> Is there a better term for "hipster stack"?

Javascript eco system.

You made me laugh, but it is unfair.

vue, (p)react and angular all have a better frontend development experience than you'd have with Django/rails.

It just increases your tech stack from one component by at least 3 (webpack, nodejs, frontend-lib like vue/(p)react/angular )

And that is sometimes more than it's worth.

> vue, (p)react and angular all have a better frontend development experience than you'd have with Django/rails.

I don’t know much about RoR, but I think Django has a pretty great front-end experience. In general I think the classic MVC approaches are highly underrated. Well maybe not so much now that React, Vue and Angular are all doing components that you can incorporate in your standard MVC, but I’ve always found the SPAs and it’s MvvM architecture needlessly complicated unless you desperately needed offline functionality.

It’s gotten quite popular of course, and great things can be build with it, but it’s so complicated that it makes a one-person project into something you often need at least two specialists to do well.

Yeah, that was before they we’re cool and other devs probably hadn’t heard of them yet...

You can see this[1] for ideas

[1] https://github.com/danistefanovic/build-your-own-x

I was where you were. I think I fixed it by finding a project that really got me excited. You'll figure out the details like which tech stack of you're really excited.

Founder here of a few startups. Was a total hackasaurus, and very similar to you in the quality. I then decided to build a new product with some friends. Changed it all! I had to start from scratch and build the whole stack. Lots of headaches, but learned so much. I didn’t use search to find the solutions, I did try to figure most of it out myself. Yes, you will be slower, but you will learn so much in the end. I think a lot of the issue is around existing content on the web or using pieces of some else’s code. Think of an idea, doesn’t have to be new, and dive deep. I love paper too, draw out your thoughts and ideas.

If you want to play with APIs, and you know Python, I would just access them from normal Python with 'requests' (or any other normal HTTP client you like, but 'requests' is the most popular and makes doing the right thing straightforward).

In my opinion there's a lot of value in building something that works and then going from there. If you know Python and Flask, build your thing in normal Python and Flask, rendering templates, not doing dynamic stuff in JS. Then add Vue or whatever else once you have a basic thing working to make it fancier.

The best advise I can give you is: "Do it with a friend"

It's the best formula to keep yourself accountable and keep going even in the less fun moment (because even in Greenfield hobby project there are shitty moment's)

If possible do it in pair programming, it's the best for sharing and learning from each other meanwhile

> I get overwhelmed with what stack I should use, and how to actually get a ‘real’ application out

Don't worry about it, then. A "real" application is one that works and gets some interest. If you can get someone to say "I like it, but..." that "but" will give you plenty to learn from.

I hope this helps.

If your goal is to finish something you started, then pick the easiest stuff to learn that can produce the fastest results based on whatever you already know, even if what you know is "out of fashion".

Also, keep in mind that any tool you build can have very modest beginnings. It might not even have a GUI for your first release.

For example, I absolutely hated the Stripe Admin interface when it related to debugging stuff related to another project I was working on, so I wrote a really mickey mouse Node script to pull data from the Stripe API to make it easier to go through the data I needed while I was testing.

That script quickly turned into a simple Electron application that slapped a GUI around my original script. I hadn't really used Electron before and it gave me an excuse to learn it quickly (and reuse some existing UI code I wrote for other projects).

That Electron app then turned into a bigger Electron application that could access multiple APIs and data sources to collect data into local files and databases.

So if you can just pick one small thing that annoys you (I find that something annoying produces faster results than something interesting, ymmv), you can build something modest to address the immediate problem, and then iterate on it to build it into something bigger and better.

I could have just as easily turned my original script into a command line executable, an NPM or a small Dockerized web app container - do whatever is interesting, fun and useful for you.

Building anything real is a lot of work. The real question is: what kind of work do you want to be doing?

I don't really program for fun anymore, but when I did, I always worked on completely personal things I could build without relying on monolithic frameworks. In practice this usually meant command-line or terminal-based apps, e.g. text editors.

I didn't build anything the world hadn't seen some version of before, but the crucial difference between these projects and something like e.g. a Reddit clone is that most of the challenges I set for myself were pure problem-solving. I never had the patience for projects that had me constantly Googling for APIs and domain-specific hacks and so on, for a similar reason to what I'm picking up from you: it all seems arbitrary and brittle and subject to change, and it's not at all fun. It's drudgery. It feels like running on a treadmill, except you're still just sitting on your ass getting older.

It's rewarding to solve complex problems elegantly, and the most challenging pure implementation work I've done has been on my own time. I like to think I learned a lot, in "pure" topics as well as design at complexity scales that a lot of developers never see, and my career to date seems to suggest that I wasn't wasting my time.

Sometimes I don't give this advice, because I don't know how well it would work for somebody who's trying to bootstrap a career from zero professional experience, but it sounds like that isn't the case for you. Unless you think there is some framework or technology that will give you a clear advantage applying for jobs you want, I think you should leave the drudgery at work and spend your time enriching yourself with interesting problems. Pick something you think is interesting and challenging, and learn what you need to learn to make it happen.

I’ve been having fun with learning how to talk to raspberry pi accessories using the i2c bus. I’m specifically playing around with Elixir and the nerves framework. It’s fun to reverse engineer someone else’s Arduino or Python code and use it to inform my Elixir code. When I say fun it’s a huge pain in the ass and progress is extremely slow but I’m able to talk to my GPS and accelerometer at this point. It’s kinda refreshing from the typical web development stuff.

In your case I think you’re creating a lot of anxiety by making the assumption that you need to be perfect right out the gate. I do this to myself as well, so perhaps I’m projecting. Slow down! You’ve already recognized an area you know you can improve in, that’s the first step. Don’t push yourself so hard to get everything perfect. Focus on learning one thing at a time and apply them to real problems. You’ll keep certain things and identify things you can do better in the next project. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Start small. Way smaller than you think is reasonable. Nothing saps motivation like overly ambitious projects (read: 99% of projects) where it takes you forever to get to any sort of milestone. Every time I work on anything that takes longer than a few weeks I regret it.

Build something you can get actually get to the "end" of in a trivial amount of time, ideally just a few days. Avoid using lots of APIs or adding a bunch of features. Make it simple at first, then iterate on that.

For example, Indie Hackers started as just a blog. I built and designed it in less than week. A few months later I added a forum. That was about 8 days from idea to release. Both were barebones MVPs.

Also, you seem super focused on tech stacks. I don't think it matters nearly as much as you think. Just pick something, follow their official tutorial, and stick with it until it's familiar.

I was in a very similar situation about a year ago.

What changed is that I took freelance contracts, on stacks that I had tried to use in side projects but failed to ship because of analysis paralysis. The simple fact that the project is not yours to drive, that income is ensured and that there are not many ties (less than an actual job) was an ideal framework for polishing my skills on some parts of the stack (React and general front-end design).

After that, going back to side projects felt much easier, some decisions which would have triggered anxiety attacks before seemed more obvious.

If you can't/don't want to go the freelance way, it may work with other work organisation ways, as long as you're not the (only) one who has to make the non-technical decisions, so you can focus on gaining experience dealing with the technical part of problem solving.

Doing freelance gigs is a good option to pick up new skills. If you can hit the ground running and cope up with the stress of learning and delivering at the same time, go for it.

Side note: I got into Python, and web scraping in particular, by picking up few freelance scraping gigs. Learned a lot in few days and this sparked my interest in Python.

I would strongly advise that you pick a stack, and then build a library or repository that you can clone in order to easily make new projects and push them to Heroku.

You're probably going to think of dozens of things it would be neat to work on. If you have to spend a week each time you start a new project before you get to the interesting part, then you're much more likely to just give up. If you can have a new website online in 5 minutes with free hosting, https, user auth, a database, and a basic frontend, then you get to have fun doing the interesting parts.

I did this with my current stack of choice (.NET Core/VueJS), and left myself directions for getting a new project going: https://github.com/caseymarquis/QApp

You sit back down to start with the coding, then reality strikes!

There is a lot to do. There's market validation, finding customers, talking with people, creating landing page and coding.

You feel so overwhelmed about all the things to do that you decide you'll start the side project later, and it bites the dust.

So my advice is : Just start.

> but every time I start I get overwhelmed with what stack I should use, and how to actually get a ‘real’ application out. It’s hard to explain. I have a lot of anxiety and analysis paralysis about this.

don't we all suffer from Imposter Syndrome in one way or another?

Why not try to go back to the basics. Don't beat yourself up, or pressure yourself. I would do research on a specific stack I like first and what I want to learn more about. Then dive into that very deep. The more I learn about the stack the easier it is to find ways to apply the stacks advantage in specific use-cases. Then try to build something based on that. It's sort of the reverse what I would "normally" do, but more fun because I allow myself to tinker and make mistakes (or do something outrageous, just for the sake of proofing it's possible to do it with that technology). Usually the decision what I build automatically emerges in that process.

if unsure if floating or swimming why not float[1] for a while?

[1] from Hunter S. Thompson’s Letter on Finding Your Purpose and Living a Meaningful Life https://fs.blog/2014/05/hunter-s-thompson-to-hume-logan/

> And indeed, that IS the question: whether to float with the tide, or to swim for a goal. It is a choice we must all make consciously or unconsciously at one time in our lives. So few people understand this! Think of any decision you’ve ever made which had a bearing on your future: I may be wrong, but I don’t see how it could have been anything but a choice however indirect— between the two things I’ve mentioned: the floating or the swimming.

ps: for me one of the most soul crushing and mind-numbing things is having to wrap some fragile REST endpoints into my app. Doing so can quickly get results and I understand why people do it, but in a side project I rather learn what a specific IETF/RFC or academic paper is about and then do something with that. The experience/knowledge from that is IMO much more valuable than being able to hammer out 3rd party API's in whatever language.

As someone said below, your anxiety or too much analysis has to be look at it in another level.

But as far as tech stack goes.. This is my opinion.

There is a lot going on, lots of new tools, technologies and resources coming along. But it is totally fine with what programming languages you are comfortable with at the moment IF you are going to do a side/hobby project.

Anyhow, you will have to iterate it a lot on the go. Honestly, some parts of it can be fun and some others wouldn't be. But you have to keep up with it in order to do the release.

So, I'd put this Addy Osmani's quote here: "First do it, then do it right, then do it better".

All the best!

This is a real hurdle to starting projects. Spend a day researching stacks. Keep it simple. Go with tech that you know.

My current stack is:

  * Creat-React-App
  * Node/Express Server
This keeps things super simple and basic, and I can extend it with Mongo / GraphQL / etc etc.

If you know python and want to use Vue, you could do:

  * Simple Vue frontend
  * Flask API
Worry about things like SSR, routing, etc, afterwards when you have something basic running. It's MUCH easier to iterate, than it is to start something. So make the starting part easy.

IMHO, the best stack is the one you are most familiar with. Start with what you are most comfortable with and build from there.

The hardest part is coming up with a product that someone else would pay money for and then making that first sale.

btw, I love reading about tech stacks, This vs. That vs. Other blogs/articles - but honestly, it just a distracting hobby at best.

This is advice for bootstrapping. If you're trying to get a job, then yeah, focus on some specific stack and start learning it and building projects to put on github and blog about.

I think you need to ignore the projects you are trying to do and instead work on getting a decent CI/CD workflow setup, preferably with strong automation driving it. The reason I say this is that it sounds to me like you are a victim of lots of unfinished projects that probably never got running properly in dev, let alone in a deployed environment. I've been there and I know it's very demoralizing to work on something and not close the loop on it, and to be staring at a mass of code that didn't go anywhere. I fixed this in my own projects by starting to treat my side coding as proper development work. I put together a Jenkins container with pipelines that test/build/deploy my code automatically. I actually write tests and spend real time on architectural decisions that I might not have cared about if I was just hacking. The result has been that I'm a stronger dev now, much more professional and productive in my workflow, and my side projects are actual software that builds green and deploys. It took me like a month of side time to set that container up like I wanted it, but it has completely changed how I feel about my work. I take it seriously now. Give this a shot if this sounds right to you, I think it could help. Best of luck:)

Obviously, the paralysis and anxiety is something to look at.

Also: I wouldn't so recommend Vue. Focus on rendering boring, server-rendered HTML first. Add vue later.

I'm a big fan of rails for the unique focus on developer happiness and velocity it places on the stack. There are similar stacks "technically" but it's the difference between a modern OS and windows 3.1. To which I say, the stack DOES matter; they are not interchangeable because they each have different philosophies and priorities. If rails wasn't free I'd paid for it.

But it depends on your priorities and what you're trying to do. I want to be effective at, and enjoy building, web applications. But if you're trying to just learn X technology or language vs building an MVP, those priorities can shape what you work with.

My best advice is aim to succeed even if you fail. Do things the RIGHT way, use the tools / technologies you've always wanted to. Even if the project goes nowhere, at least you got to play with something, and be professional about doing it.

Lastly, think of small problems you COULD solve, or explore. then build off those.

Just as a suggestion - try to focus on your ideas, not on the technical knowledge that seems necessary for the implementation. To roll out an MVP, a Django app on PythonAnywhere may be enough.

Only after you have tested your app with some real users and when you start feeling that PythonAnywhere is limiting you, start learning about more advanced technical stacks or infrastructure - you will feel more motivated to learn it if there is a need to use it.

Instead of starting on your own, maybe look for an open source project that you find useful and seems well maintained with an active community. Then see if they have marked any of their bugs or issues as good for new devs. You'll learn about the (sometimes terrible) group dynamics of software teams, you won't have to start a project from scratch, and you'll be exposed to the tools and code patterns in use today.

Can you expand more on how to go about learning to understand a large open source codebase for the first time?

If you have an open source codebase you use for other projects or for personal reasons, usually you'll notice some rough edges that you want to see fixed. I have found that diving into the code around those issues is a good way to get started.

Usually it's best to pick up one of the "good for new people" bugs and then work your way out from there, eventually reading (or at least skimming) most of the code and understanding the build tools.

I really want to get started contributing to Rust, and they have well documented good for newb bugs. Still very intimidated because I've never worked with a codebase I couldn't read all of in a sitting before. Any suggestions?

You might enjoy https://rust-lang.github.io/rustc-guide/

But seriously, the team is very happy to onboard new people, don't worry about it. I know it's not that easy to just stop worrying, but it's not a big deal at all. The compiler team is happy to help.

Awesome! I've been lurking on Zulip, and everyone seems so nice. Should probably just ask...

always work on the step you know you can take next. There are lots of unknowns in every project, but there are usually a few knowns. Usually the problem is not pulling the trigger to move forward on the knowns. You will have to re-write, you will have to backtrack, you will end up wasting oodles of code and time, but steps backwards are steps forward when learning is a part of it, and learning is always a part of it.

Idea for a simple Flask/Vue App: Multiplayer Anagram

I used to enjoy playing this years ago on a flash based gaming website but thats been taken down and I can't seem to find a simple html based one that lets you play with others online.

Gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb5-A-FLC98

> every time I start I get overwhelmed with what stack I should use, and how to actually get a ‘real’ application out

Decision paralysis is something I struggle with too. Being able to recognize it and move forward, instead of second guessing yourself, helps a lot. It's good to remember engineering is about making trade-offs. Every solution will have shortcomings.

I've also found being strict about refactoring to be very useful. Don't solve problems before you need to. Don't write a function till you actually need it. Don't start with a complicated class structure, start with a some procedural code and naturally grow and refactor it. Don't try to start a project as if it were already 6 months old.

Bit of a ramble myself, but I get it. Second guessing your technical decisions is just something we have to find strategies to work around. Doing that makes us better. Working on side projects is a fantastic way to do it too, so kudos!

> I feel like I'm behind 'bootcamp grads' because they can actually push deploy real code.

Probably you need to redefine what MVP means. Start with like a hello world app in Vue, and get it deployed to the point that you can show your friends. You want to build a feedback loop as quick as possible, and many tutorials skip that. So get to where you can build deploy and test ASAP, even if the features aren't really there.

Trying to include too many APIs up front is going to lead to a combinatorial explosion of problems. Learn VUE first (maybe a blog project or todo list or whatever is the popular tutorial project these days), then set about learning the Spotify API once you have a chance of knowing whether any given problem you encounter is the fault of spotify, the api, or vue =)

If you find a old tutorial that you like, how about updating the tutorial for yourself and writing a new one as you figure it out? I learned React in 2018 from a tutorial made in 2016. The first thing I had to do was learn how to update Webpack from version 2 to 4. And while bits of the tutorial were outdated, a lot of it still applies.

Also, you aren't in control of what tech stack you use. I once moved 4000km from San Francisco to Washington DC to take a Ruby job for doing Selenium style automated testing on Android . Within a week I learned that Ruby approach wasn't going to work, and then I had to learn Java from scratch. Focus on learning how to complete tasks in the something, and worry less about living in a comfortable box labeled Full Stack Python Developer.

Solve a problem that other hate to solve it because it's frustrating and boring.

Start looking on UpWork, Fiverr etc...

Part of this tutorial shows you how to use spotify API (among other APIs). https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/apis-for-beginners-full-co...

First, rediscover how to build for fun. Highly recommend playing as a beginner with JavaScript in 30 days and p5.js.

If you like a vue, take a paid vue course that costs $20 or so per month. The material will be vetted, you won’t have to piece as much together.. and can ask lots of questions.

Do everything with no framework. Vanilla JS, basic Rails, Basic PHP. Whatever you know the best, use it and build it. Don't get distracted by features. Until you have a working system, you don't need to refactor. Start with one tiny bit and move on from there.

You say you want to use python or nodejs, so just go with one of them and don't look back. It really doesn't matter what you choose, just start creating. Don't spend days upon days trying to predict issues that you might never ever have.

Subscribe to and watch destroy all software by Gary Bernhardt. It will teach you skills that are applicable to any stack and more importantly, watching him program will show you what us possible in terms of craftsmanship.

I had a similar work path, most side projects ended up as READMEs, some I would finish because of interviews, but nothing satisfying.

Right now I work with in a restaurant, and the dude manages sales by hand. So naturally I tried making a stupid simple order intake thing in Vue.

- Having a 'real' use case with a potentially real user gives a lot more motivation. And at the same time I can learn and fail on my own.

- It grew from simple form to nested editor to multiple object stores and pages

- It's a bit above the usual frontend tutorial (todomvc and similar) without being too ambitious

Maybe that can inspire you a bit. Good luck

Building something w django is easier than bug fixes (imho). Django is just that well documented and easy to use. Bugs, of course, are not. If you want to write code, for your features, just write it in your view (this is what django calls the controller). Maybe it should be written somewhere else, but in my projects I wrote most of the logic in views, and if you are using other libraries/apis, you can just follow their docs or use stackoverflow. If you go down this route you will, at the minimum, learn a lot.

> but every time I start I get overwhelmed with what stack I should use, and how to actually get a ‘real’ application out.

Just start.

If the stack is your problem, just pick one. Any will do. Then just slowly start working towards your goal. There's no shortcut.

And this danger of getting stuck can come up again and again. For example you might be worried that the architecture you chose is bad, and you spend a lot of time making it perfect (which is impossible). Realize that the important thing is creating something, so you should ruthlessly push forward.

You’ve already got a lot of great advice. I’ve been in the same position and would submit I’m still in the same spot. What has helped is “scratching an itch”, trying to do basic things. The feeling of accomplishing something, even small, is powerful and motivating.

One idea I didn’t see suggested is pairing up with a friend and working on learning/doing together. It will help push through when the learning gets overwhelming/frustrating and bring some joy back into the process. Good luck!

Pair up with a friend and learn/do together. It will help push through moments of frustration and a partner will serve as a check on giving up prematurely. Good luck!

Everyone starts with no knowledge.

A good developer is one who walked the road already.

Why not start as a junior in a real team, learn from better persons.

Learn the basics first ( eg.Clean Code).

Learn architecture after ( 4layer).

There will always be a nicer js stack, I have a lot of experience. But I also struggled how to set up the frontend stack upfront in Vue ( not single pages).

I would actually advice on . Net core, the documentation is great, visual studio community is great and a lot of work is done in c# + tutorials are widely available

If you want a stack that won't force you to learn a billion things, I recommend elixir/Phoenix which will take you from hello world static up to javascript-free serverside rendering, deploying with ssl (no nginx/uwsgi necessary), and there are nice services for deploy like gigalixir. Documentation is great and comprehensive. It's also just about the most fun programming language I've ever encountered.

Good luck!

Elixir is my go-to default for any new web app. Another great deployment option is Render (founded by early Stripe dev, covered here: https://alchemist.camp/articles/elixir-releases-deployment-r...)

If what you are doing isnt working how doing something different?

For example how about working from the outside in? Start with a basic UI made in a graphics program and work your way to implement it. Or just do the smallest API call you can make.

The key thing is to do something you are interested in, not what WE are interested in. Do it because you are liking it and do not do it to post on Show HN.

And we don't care what technologies you use, really, it makes no difference.

Follow your passions.

Don’t follow tutorials. They kill your creativity. Instead think about something useful to you and build it. Get stuck? Learn and ask. Build more. And so on.

I think tutorials can be useful, especially for something entirely new. If I just open a text editor to a blank page it's really hard to get going. If I have a demo project it's much easier to start to modify that to do something else.

I suffered from the same paralysis when attempting to do my own projects, and it had less to do with the tech than it did the problem I wanted to solve.

Eventually, to get started, I settled on doing a small command line app in Python/Click. It was a utility I actually needed (even if someone else didn't really need it), and it's the kind of thing I could iterate on without too much trouble.

It's usually much easier to start small.

I did the same, only with Ruby. Iterating now would be refactoring with better code and adding a GUI. But now I have a working utility that I use every day.

Been there myself. My solution is forget all those frameworks. Just build something from scratch using as little bling as possible. Maybe even just python+bottle for a web app. That should take less than one hour to get a result. The. Do tasks in one hour chunks that get results. E. G. Add argparse and command line help, add a logo to displayed html page.... And so on till you have broken thru.

Good luck.

Remix this. It is a base version of a popular MMO game. I am developing one of the better versions, with the game split into multiple files and with many engine improvements. If you make something impressive enough, I might invite you work on my game with me. https://glitch.com/~arras-template

What sort of projects do you enjoy working on? If you can answer that for yourself, then you can usually find one that doesn't seem boring.

>> I just want to work without feeling bored or overwhelmed

Then I guess you need to work on some hard problems, sorry if I have assumed you haven't tried those.

This can be a good starting point and the ROI will be really good, if you are looking at long term ROI. [1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21790779

Every cool thing that I've ever built has started with an idea becoming a basic ( and I mean really basic ) proof of concept... just enough to see all the concepts and moving parts working together... start there, forget about all the tech stacks and just sit down and code something in whatever language you're comfortable writing in... the rest will follow.

I would suggest taking all the stacks you are interested in end to end with automated testing and deployment. A static html page with consideration to aspects such as accessibility and time to first render is not necessarily trivial. Building out in different stacks from such a starting point would likely give you a valuable insight that is imho often overlooked.

> but every time I start I get overwhelmed with what stack I should use

Make an educated guess and build your idea using it. Anyways, no matter what, you are going to throw away the first version you make, whether you succeed, fail, or because the first stack you chose wasn't the best choice.

The knowledge you are left with after that process will be more valuable than anything else.

I would advise you to try to build something simple and small. It may become bigger afterwards. Ideally, this (initially) small project would scratch an itch.

That way, you have something immediately motivating, small and simple working soon so you don't get lost (lack of motivation, too much complexity) and overwhelmed, and you can still improve it later.

Start with the smallest piece that gives you motivation, might not even need a backend component.

For example, a tiny widget that shows you an artist page or whatever, that can be embedded.

Then ship that, show it to HN and all around. This should boost your energy and motivation.

Tackle a slightly bigger project afterwards. Loop a few times and voila! You're over the hill.

1. Think of a highly desirable role.

2. Visit the website of a company that you would like to work for.

3. Look for a role similar to your highly desirable role.

4. Read the requirements for that job.

5. Learn the skills / technologies listed as requirements for that job.

You don't even need to apply for that job, and you can do this as many times as you want.

Help someone. Remove indecisiveness by putting into their hands what you'll use by following their need (and their lead!), that way you can structure your hobby time around building it for them, and not have to worry so much about tutorials and stacks, you'll have a goal.

If you are not employed, go get a job.

You are in a position extremely comparable to one I've been in myself. I had the same feeling about my jobs, also hadn't worked for awhile, considered myself lazy/coasting, wanted to get hobby projects going but had trouble.

So, having had success with my hobby projects in the sense that I reached my technical/product goals and then ended up landing a great tech job off of them, here are my thoughts, in no particular order:

1. Tech stack doesn't exactly matter. Don't overthink it. I personally love a variety of languages and want to be fluent with django, flask, express, sinatra, node, spring, and sails. That is, however, impractical, and comparing them endlessly is unproductive. They can all do what you need. Some are more complex than others, and learning curve is IMO the most important point of comparison. I ended up going with expressJS which is fantastically straightforward to set up and work with, and is extremely powerful and flexible and mature. That was partly because I was already fluent in JS from doing frontend work.

2. I wouldn't really recommend tutorials. If you wanted to build (for example) a twitter clone, you probably already know you need backend code serving HTML views. So just follow through the "Hello world!" tutorial on your framework of choice until you have it serving HTML views, then build off that, progressively googling things as you add complexity, e.g. "how to do user login with django". If you encounter a bit of syntax or a concept you're unfamiliar with, google the shit out of it. If you find nothing, ask on stackoverflow. I have asked like 400 questions there. I'm shameless. Stackoverflow tells me my questions have helped 3.7 million other people over the past 6 years.

3. If you want to do Vue, do Vue! Great! Frankly I think the prominence of react now is so great that I would be reluctant to focus energies on something else, but any good company won't care if you already know it or not, because you can learn it on the job.

4. Kind of repeating myself, but don't look for "spotify vue tutorial project"....that'll get you nowhere. Figure out how to use Vue, then figure out how to use the spotify API, then tie them together on your own.

5. It really helps to nail down what you're using. I did a lot of comparing for where to host my application, a lot of googling "X vs Y" and finally went with Heroku. It really depends whether you want to be doing your own server administration or whether you want most of that handled for you. EC2 and digital ocean will leave you managing your server, where Heroku for instance will not. I strongly recommend heroku, personally, or something similar to it, for the stage you're at.

6. Once you nail down HOW you're going to deploy your product, like with heroku, DEPLOY IT IMMEDIATELY! Deploy your first line of HTML, the one that says "welcome to my website" and make sure you can see it at `your-website.com`, whatever your URL is! It's so motivating to get that link out of the way, to know you already have the setup ready to put the code into production. As you commit each new thing, keep adding it! Keep deploying! It will feel like you're really getting somewhere and keep you motivated. If you wait until it's finished to do all that, you're far less likely to ever get there because mentally it will feel like you're eons away from completion.

Thanks man! You're post resonated with me. I also believe I need the original "feel good" feeling of deploying something early to make my confidence go up.

I think this is a really good set of advice. In your situation, I would second going with React and some sort of node backend

My personal advise: don’t waste time dicking around with a tech stack. Just write the code for your application as directly as possible. Write what’s important first to make it work then incrementally add features.

A tech stack is like a cookbook. Commercial cooks don’t dick around with cookbooks because if they ever want to make money they must be able to ship a product fast and scale their effort across multiple orders simultaneously. Cookbooks are written for a home user to slowly slave over a single entree as a cooking passion. Likewise a tech stack is for a corporate developer who has more time to burn and would rather dicking around with configuring things than making tough product decisions.

Not investing in a tech stack will force you to question your basic assumptions of architecture so that you focus first on the areas most important to your application. That puts your product first. As the application grows refactor as necessary.

Pick anything on here that interests you and get to it: https://dev.azure.com/s-lambert/_git/Lets%20Get%20Wild!.

Go agile for yourself. Push little changes and then increment, making stuff better. Try to get a feature done on the first day, no matter how small it is. It feels very rewarding and motivates to continue. Little steps first, no matter the stack

I wouldn’t try to Learn nuxt before Vue. Frontendmasters has a great variety of tutorials for Different js skill levels

But that aside, I would probably try to work through eloquentjs, the projects ramp up very quickly and are a great foundation

I recommend running a serverless stack so you can avoid getting hung up on infrastructure shenanigans. It's super cheap too. React SPA via CreateReactApp using cloudfront+s3 to host the HTML+css+js and API gateway ->lambda backend -> w/dynamodb to store your data and you can get something cool and useable going. In that stack you can mix and match other UI tiers, swapping vue, angular or polymer in for react.

I recently completed a proof of concept with both polymer and react on the above stacks, probably going to do angular next. There were some annoying things in the area of error reporting being unclear from AWS' stack, but once I figured out that CORs warnings from the UI tiers accessing the API gateway usually mean a self inflicted typo in my url it was pretty smooth sailing.

A few questions, as I don't know AWS much beyond basic VMs.

- Is all this easy to do following their docs, are we talking 1 h setup or 1 day?

- Cost: how much are we talking per week/month? (assuming no traffic but yours)

The setup was pretty straightforward with tutorials galore and it's rediculous cheap, the most expensive part is the route53 stuff as it costs a buck a month or something like that to route a domain. Well, I bought a few domains too so those are like 15 bucks a year (I got them from a random registrar, not aws).

Don't get me wrong though, it won't be a path of roses, aws error messages sometimes make no sense whatsoever and require some googling to figure out, typos are NOT your friend!

Luckily Google usually led me to someone trying to set something up similar and I could logic it out from there. My #1 thing that I wish someone had told me was that if you make a Ajax call to your web API and the browser spits out a CORS error, check, triple check the url and what kind of call you are making (POST, GET, etc) because at least on my setup mistakes in those actually shows up as a CORS error instead of your typical 404 error.

I also bit the bullet and figured out how to use one of the serverless sites to deploy the AWS API+lambda+dynamodb one one fell swoop using a .yml file. But first I did it all by hand via the AWS gui so I could get some idea of how it worked. That .yml file is a whole other rabbit hole as the error messages are pretty obtuse at times.

Edit: One thing to watch for on cost is the dynamodb, by default they reserve 25 total transactions per second on the free tier. If you try to increase the performance by reserving much a whole lot more, like 1000 tps per table/index, that will get pricey right quick. So either leave it at 25 and recognize that if you add an index things might get throttled while it builds the index, or do what I did, which is I went ahead and switched it to the pay as you go model since $0.20 per million transactions is plenty cheap and I'm not even flirting with that 20 cents on my proof of concepts that span 5 different web domains.

Wow, that is everything I asked for and more; thanks a lot for taking the time and effort to summarize all this. Now I feel like I can get started with this tomorrow.

Couple remarks:


Oh, that may save me lots of time... Seems related to http headers at first Googlance? These bit me in the past (in middleware and backend apps) and I still don't have a solid grasp of when I should use which.

> dynamodb

I'll probably do the same as you then.

I've got hobbyist hardware at home (behind 1G fiber) so I usually use that as a lab — I still have to make a 'serverless' platform though — so anything too expensive I can balance back 'on-prem'.

I need to learn AWS anyway (who doesn't, I figure, if you intend to CI/CD as small/one-man team). Glad I can go the serverless path to get my feet wet!

Thanks again.

For the first year, you get one million requests per month for free. After that, it’s $0.20 per million requests. There’s also a component based on time & memory usage, but it appears to be small, too.


Anyone have any good recommendations on deployment platforms that are cost effective and don't compromise on technology? Think Heroku, but with support for HTTP/2 and internal mesh networking.

I can't exactly tell where you're at, as far as the need for work.

From what I can see, it looks like you are able to keep the lights on, and you don't need the work.

If so, this is where I'm at. It's both good and bad.

I may be coming from a very different place, so YMMV.

I worked as a "ship" programmer and manager for over thirty years. I've been writing shrink-wrapped software (actual deliverable) for my entire career. It's taught me a great deal.

The last decade or so, my management responsibilities meant that I couldn't code on the job, so I created a number of open-source projects. I didn't have a "We own the ideas that you come up with in the shower" clause at work, so I was free to do this.

They have been fairly successful, in a rather limited scope. Since all the work was initially done with a "bus factor" of 1, the projects are not massive; but they are very, very important to a certain demographic. They needed to be done at a professional level; not at a "hobby" level.

I am now at a place where I never need to work again, if I don't want, but I want to work.

During the week, I get up every morning at 5AM, do my exercise, then roll up my sleeves, and start coding. Weekends, I let myself sleep in until 6:30AM. I've been doing this for the last couple of years. It is now Christmas morning. I am taking my time doing my exercise, and will get back to coding the the Bluetooth OBD driver I'm making in an hour or so.

Yeah, I'm obsessive.

I write every line of code as shipping code; even if I never plan to ship. My test harnesses are fully-qualified apps that could be released to the app store, with localization and full-fat documentation.

Will I work again? Maybe. I certainly have skills and experience that could make folks with established corporations a lot of money, but I've found they are reluctant to hire folks my age; regardless of what I'm capable of doing. I've set up a consulting corporation, and we'll see where that goes. If nothing else, it gives me a structure to buy the toys I want.

No matter. I work as if I am writing shipping code. The satisfaction of finishing a deliverable-level project can't be replaced. I do everything as open-source. My portfolio is gigantic, and is not consistent of dozens of forked projects. Just about every line of code in it was my own. My GitHub ID is solid green. I have over a decade of commit history in dozens of repos.

I'd suggest that you consider establishing a portfolio. Write code that is meant to be shared and re-used. Write developer utilities, drivers and tools. Test the code well. Document it well. Craft it like you are a master goldsmith, creating royal treasuries. Establish a personal/professional brand. Decide on what that brand means, and make all your work reinforce that.

The world needs high-quality software. Write as a vocation; not a hobby, and whether or not anyone else values or pays for your work. If nothing else, it will be useful as an example to others.

Maybe find an NPO/NGO that doesn't have a pot to piss in, but a cause you can support. Write pro-level code for them that they could never afford on their own. That's what I did. I can definitely say that the code I've written has saved lives, and restored hope.

It also feels great to write beautiful code. Every project I do is completely shippable, and highly-polished, with strong branding, rich UX and a great deal of documentation. I'm a reasonably good artist. I was trained as one, many moons ago.

For me, doing the work is its own reward. I haven't been paid to write code in over twenty years. I don't care. I love coding. I've been writing open-source stuff for most of those decades. When they stopped paying me to write code, I didn't miss a beat, and kept writing.

I also like to write articles on my personal sites and Medium. I don't particularly care if anyone reads them or not. They give me practice doing another thing that I like to do: talk about myself ;).

Just my $0.02.

Have a great holiday season!

Thanks man! I've saved up some money and It's always seemed in my path to stop working at a big company and try to do my own thing... just I'm scared and also I can see when the money is going to run out and the thought of going back to a 'normal life' scares me. I know I have it in me but I just have to find something in myself that I lost along the way. Hard to explain.

No need to explain. I understand completely.

I wish you luck, and your extracurricular work can definitely be a stepping stone towards your dream.

The only suggestion I would make, is to keep your eye on the ball. Always make sure the product and the goal get first priority. If you make enough to buy a Tesla, maybe defer the car, and get some test kit, instead.

The key to treating anxiety is to confront the fear. But it's not clear what your fear is here.

If you wrote some code and put it on GitHub would that count as deploying real code?

Try using bubble to build your prototype. https://bubble.io/

It might be something that helps you

Art projects & games are fun ways to learn.

Since you mentioned Python, Django is a good option to get started & build on a reliable foundation.

Use ruby on rails with jquery and mysql on aws and ignore all the haters.

Close your eyes and just build what you want. Those technologies have been tried and tested over and over again yet the latest js stacks have cult like followers for a few years and seem to take the entire internet by storm before no one hears about them again.

If you need inspiration to ignore all the haters I recommend the creator of ruby on rails. He also accurately mentions how TDD and VCs are important plagues to be avoided https://twitter.com/dhh

I have a similar issue, so if youre open to it, pm me, let’s coop this.

I want to start a /js/node etc myself to learn.

Oh wow I'm in the same boat only I used to do embedded development.

I'd buy a kit. Lots of them on Amazon.

What is your goal with the project?

Why do you get bored and quit ?

Start there.

I have a colleague like you. Your problem is this: you say you want to build something cool, but then you follow up with "but every tutorial I read..."

There is NO guide to building something new and cool. Yeah, you will build upon existing stuff, but you need to come up with your own plan and then research specifics to fill in the blanks. You may have to repeat work, so just accept that.

This is great advice. Stop making "learning the framework(s)" part of the goal. Pick something that is in the rough genre of what you want to do, and bulldoze through it to Do The Cool Thing. Accept that you will be working inefficiently and painfully at times. That's how you gain experience, and through that experience you will grow an understanding of how the frameworks differ from each other and which are most suitable for certain kinds of tasks.

Completely agree.

Your only goal is build then launch. Be 100% focused on this.

Reading and learning will be required, but should be set against a specific task that is part of your product launch goal. You only need to research as much as is necessary to achieve the next task (that gets you closer to launch). Then you move on. Your code doesn't need to be a masterpiece. It just needs to work. You don't know which idea will be a winner, yet, so save the really hard work for the idea that sticks.

I agree. "Something cool" is something that doesn't exist yet and it is really hard to find tutorials on those.

> I just want to work without feeling bored or overwhelmed.

Imagine being bored AND overwhelmed. Now that's something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

But if you want to deploy "real code", I suggest choosing a programming language and building a "complete software".

1. Write a compiler for C ( or more realistically a subset of C )

2. Write a basic web server

3. Write a basic database ( RDBMs )

4. Write a basic browser

5. Write a basic chess engine with board ( if you are interested in AI topics )

6. Write a basic kernel ( or pieces of the kernel )

7. Write a basic debugger

Or if you graduated from a CS program, go look through your projects that you did and redo them or expand on them. Anyways, hope you find the project you are looking for and good luck.

The only one of these that isn't going to be overwhelming is, maybe, the chess game.

Do something else. My God there is so much that needs to be done outside of software, no one is doing it, and civilization is turning into shit because of it.

If you need us to give you the secret sauce to doing software without feeling bored or overwhelmed, I hate to break it to you, but there is no secret sauce. Roll with that.

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