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It was clear to me how threatened Facebook was by TikTok when I brought it up with an employee in June.

They kept mentioning infinite scroll, and that everyone was supposed to be thinking about how to incorporate that into product.

After zuck discussed TikTok directly recently, I’m not surprised google and fb lobbyists would press for this investigation.

One question I have, is the real-time interests of millions of 16-24 yo Americans reported back to the Chinese government a national security concern?




Facebook has released a TikTok clone, Lasso, but they miss a lot of basic things that made TikTok popular, both from a policy perspective and from UX. It's much less competitive than Instagram's cloning of Snapchat.

Initially Lasso only supported registering with a Facebook account, defaulting to exposing your real name to the world. TikTok let you browse anonymously and register with just a phone number or email account, letting users protect their identities much easier. Lasso now allows you to register with an Instagram account.

Lasso has much worse video quality-- seemingly SD vs HD, presumably to save bandwidth, but it makes videos much less appealing since they're noticeably blurrier. This may be because Lasso decided to show me Spanish videos for no apparent reason (or maybe that's where their users are?), and most Spanish-speaking countries have predominantly Android phones which have worse video quality.

The infinite scrolling feels worse because videos fade in from black instead of displaying their first frame while scrolling into view. The feed isn't actually infinite, but refuses to load past a certain point. You can't swipe right from the feed to view a user's profile.

Regarding censorship, I'm not convinced ByteDance's Chinese style "ban anything contentious" censorship is actually a downside for most teen users. Instagram has _very_ loose censorship policies, which easily allow the feed to become very sexualized. I expect this makes younger users feel less comfortable posting publicly-- Instagram is where the bikini models and their followers hang out!-- while TikTok's more carefully curated space feels age-appropriate. That may all be network effects, though, with social networks as always being colonized first by the young.


Interesting notes. Lasso is currently only focused on Mexico.


16-24 yo (and even younger) American kids/youth being exposed to Chinese propoganda and censorship is most definitely a national security concern.


Yes, Americans should only be exposed to American Corporate-sanctioned propaganda.


Hey, at least americans can vote on that propoganda.


They can not. Media ownership and media content, even NPR, is not tied to electoral representation.


I didn't realize we were all on facebook's board of directors.


Nothing is stopping Americans from placing their own propaganda via paid ads or pro-US videos. As long as you're not stupid and push obvious points re: HK, that will immediately come to the attention of censors, you can go far.


TikTok, like Twitter, doesn’t allow political ads.

Besides, Hollywood movies should have enough propaganda in them already.


It's pretty hypocritical to suggest that we should be worried about people seeing information from a foreign source because they might be "exposed to censorship".


I use TikTok a lot. Censorship is a concern, I agree, but propaganda is unlikely just given how the "For You" algorithmic curation works.


> is the real-time interests of millions of 16-24 yo Americans reported back to the Chinese government a national security concern?

Yes. They are kids today, but they might be a Senator, CEO, or President tomorrow.

Or they might grow up to be an average person, but with a sensitive job and a Chinese intelligence officer needs background on someone to flip them.

They don't need sensational information, just insight on how their target can be influenced.


Oh please.


I wonder what your motives are behind your comment. Why would you try to downplay this issue? What do you have to gain by it?


>One question I have, is the real-time interests of millions of 16-24 yo Americans reported back to the Chinese government a national security concern?

Perhaps not, but the influence of a nebulous "algorithm" controlling what comes up next certainly can reinforce a message or way of life that line up with China's cultural norms


Iow, the presence of non-US cultures on a feed can harm US children?


If that non-US culture advocates that democracy is a threat to society, or that political re-education camps are not an issue, I would say that yes, we need to keep that out.


One of the central principles of western democracy is that freedom of speech is a good thing and everyone should have the right to advocate for ideas even if they are bad. The opposite philosophy, which is fairly prevalent in many parts of the world, is that it is the role of the government and societal elites to control the flow of information so that bad ideas (as defined by the people in power, of course) don’t gain traction. It’s pretty hilarious that you are adopting the latter perspective and arguing for more government censorship to “defend democracy”. Are you sure you really understand democracy?


While your points make total sense and I agree with what you say, I personally believe that letting Chinese firms acquire control of US social media companies is a way greater threat to Western freedom of speech than what we would lose by blocking these acquisitions. Can you imagine a future in which we’ll be unable to post anti-government content online because most Internet properties are owned by Chinese companies which follow their local regulation? That would be the death of freedom of speech.

You do not necessarily need content censorship to keep CCP ideas out of the West. You can keep them out by means of economic policies. And I feel like Western countries are not doing a good enough job at this, whereas the PRC government has been extremely efficient at blocking foreign entities.


What about freedom of speech? Or it doesn't apply to Chinese mobile apps?


How exactly would you show such a complex topic in these 10 second music skits?


It would take them very little to pivot from music skits to a wider variety of videos including news like Facebook does, for instance.


So we were discussing preventive measures? I thought it was immediate

>advocates that democracy is a threat to society, or that political re-education camps are not an issue

Now it is even more confusing.


[citation needed]


>> If that non-US culture advocates that democracy is a threat to society, or that political re-education camps are not an issue, I would say that yes, we need to keep that out.

> [citation needed]

The "non-US culture" framing of the GP and GGP is ignorant and wrong, but what they say is certainly true with regards to the party and government:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-lea...

> Communist Party cadres have filled meeting halls around China to hear a somber, secretive warning issued by senior leaders. Power could escape their grip, they have been told, unless the party eradicates seven subversive currents coursing through Chinese society.... The first was “Western constitutional democracy”; others included promoting “universal values” of human rights, Western-inspired notions of media independence and civic participation, ardently pro-market “neo-liberalism,” and “nihilist” criticisms of the party’s traumatic past.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/world/asia/china-student-...

> ...students are increasingly playing a key role by monitoring how teachers view Mr. Xi, the party and ideas like democracy. In exchange, they are promised rewards like scholarships, higher grades and advancement within prestigious Communist Party groups.

> Ankang University in northwest China said in an online notice that student informers should formally report professors who spread superstition, cults and pornography, “promote Western political values,” and criticize the party’s tenets. School administrators, the notice says, should respond to each complaint within three working days.


I didn’t know TikTok was doing these things. Well, in this case it deserves to be shut down obviously.


when its an aggressive and manipulative foreign powers propaganda, yes.


Grindr's in the hands of the Chinese was already raising hairs. When you consider that Tik Tok is again (after COPA) under FCC investigation over its handling of children data.




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