> None of this would be possible in a civilized country.
I think the same concept exists in many civilized countries. In Germany it's called Erzwingungshaft (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzwingungshaft) and can be up to half a year for refusing to testify (though you can refuse to testify against yourself or close relatives without repercussions, similar to the 5th amendment).
In Germany Ordnungshaft (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnungsmittel) is the measure for refusing to testify. It is strongly regulated and can't extend longer than 6 weeks without going to a higher court.
Erzwingungshaft is incarceration for failure to pay fines or penalties.
I'm not the OP, but personally, I see civility as a function of the rule of law.
Rule of law is a spectrum, on one end is a place like say, Norway - where everyone is treated with a minimum of respect, criminal justice is mostly reformative, where only a very, very small number of individuals at the top of the social hierarchy will be treated different, mostly, people are treated the same by the law.
On the other end of the spectrum is a place like Somalia, the state has no respect for the individual, criminal justice is punitive and everyone is treated differently based on their social ranking.
In general, the poorer and more dictatorial a country, the more we expect it to be on the low side of this spectrum, and the richer and democratic, the better it should be.
The US is somewhere in the middle of these two, but for many of us, we would expect it to be higher up given the wealth of the country and the democratic nature of our government. I personally hail from a very poor country where our justice system is actually similar in rule of law to the one I feel Americans have.
In terms of this trial, personally I feel locking manning up is punitive and not intended to be cohersive. It's intended to make an example. In fact, I'm not sure why she is being tried at all, I though we had double jeopardy laws, she already went to trial and was imprisoned by the wikileaks debacle. It seems the government is grasping at straws to imprison legal citizens for doing acts that should be rewarded (whistle-blowing). Using the law on an ad-hock basis is exactly the type of behavior that I was mentioning, putting us further toward the Somalia side of the spectrum where rule of law is secondary to rule of power.
This seems to boil down to a disagreement on coercive versus punitive, or more cynically, whether or not you happen to agree with Manning. The court already has an escape clause in place by capping the punishment at 18 months. Manning appears to be seeking that contempt of court be abolished altogether, leaving no way to compel witnesses to testify. All they would need to do is declare "I will not testify, you cannot make me, nothing will change my mind!" and they are let go. Independent of my opinion on Manning's situation, I am not sure that precedent is a net positive. If the punishment were indefinite, it would be a more interesting case. But since it is capped already, I tend to side with the court and let the clock run out.
I'd agree with you much more if Manning hadn't already been tried and served time for the Wikileaks case.
I also think 18 months is far more punitive than coercive. If it was a month, which is a terribly long time to be confined in a cage, I'd find it more acceptable.
As it stands, 18 months is longer than many people serve for violent crimes. And this person already stood trial and was already imprisoned for this same case.
I'm not sure what the proper length of time is, and I imagine there are as many answers as there are people. 18 months is a long time, for sure, but not unprecedented. There's a guy who has been sitting in jail for more than three years (IIRC) for refusing to decrypt evidence that might result in his conviction. His case has far fewer champions than Manning's, due to the nature of the charges, but he does have some people advocating on his behalf. As far as I know, there is no cap on the length of time he will spend in jail on contempt. He's also looking at a lengthy prison sentence if convicted, so his motivations are more personal.
Precedent... we have precedent for enslavement and pillory. That doesn't make it OK.
In terms of the guy sitting in jail for 3 years. I've heard of that. I strongly feel he should be released or tried on existing evidence (no need to violate the 5th). Two wrongs don't make a right.
The original comment we are answering seems to be correct:
> This shows the whole world how hopeless the US injustice system is. None of this would be possible in a civilized country.
Civilized being defined as the rule of law... it seems he is correct, as the proceedings against manning seem to violate the laws (both the 5th as well as double jeopardy)
Precedent, other things being worse... those don't address the original argument: this is America's barbarism. The example of the guy sitting in jail in-definitively seems to only support this perception, not detract from it. Of course, you are free to perceive it as you like. Some things we'll never agree on. :)
> Manning appears to be seeking that contempt of court be abolished altogether
Manning actually has explicitly stated that she wishes the grand jury process (not merely the ability to compel testimony for that process) to be abolished completely; it is not clear that she feels contempt sanctions and compulsory testimony are improper outside of the grand jury context.
I’m not a big fan of secret courts, they are used to force witnesses with threats to testify against people. Who is to say those witnesses are honest when they are threatened like this?
What's the problem with grand juries? They're supposed to determine whether or not prosecutors can charge you and have an official trial. In other countries, the prosecutor will just charge you directly. The point of a grand jury is to prevent an incompetent or malicious prosecution.
As for counsel for witnesses, they are allowed to hire lawyers. The lawyers aren't allowed in the room with them, but they are allowed to wait outside, and the witness is allowed to leave the room to consult with their lawyer, even after every single question. It's kind of silly, and I'm not really sure why that's the case, but it's hardly an absurd miscarriage of justice.
Also, Chelsea Manning would still wind up in jail over this if there weren't grand juries in the US, it would just be at trial instead.
Pick a civilized country you think doesn't have some atrocious quirk in their legal system.
That said, I don't disagree, I think I'm trying to say that there's no such thing as a civilized country if we're basing that on the sensibility of their legal system. Everything is on some spectrum of terrible to tolerable to the average person. The average person is not called to a grand jury, so it's not something they get riled up about.
