Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
New Laptop
25 points by rjett on May 22, 2008 | hide | past | favorite | 115 comments
I have had a desktop my whole life, but I really want to buy a laptop so I'm not relegated to working in one space. Given that I'm on a budget and I'm just starting to learn to program, what is the best "bang for my buck?"


They are all Intel Reference platforms: only your budget will determine the model (if you get your money through work, then you'll go for the best "bang for the buck").

That said, there are 4-5 (tops) companies in the WORLD making notebooks: all the choice you see in the shops are about branding and artificial product differentiation. ECS, Acer, Asus etc. fall off the same machines as Apple, Fujitsu, HPQ etc. (Lenovo being a notable exception). They contain the same CPU, same RAM ...same MS licence etc. Some even have almost the same shell (e.g. ECS-DELL-FSC-Toshiba).

If you use it for work, I suggest you get the cheapest one that offers you enough value to perform your task (e.g. 15.4", 17" being no longer portable; x3100, 2Gig are all sufficient for coding: if you need real power, you'll ssh anyway to the given HPC). You will not get a heart-attack if it drops, gets scratched or stolen: you will just get a brand new one, being 2x better for approx. the same price within a year with strong batteries (they will fade within 2 years anyway).

If it is (also) for showing feathers, then obviously Apple, Sony (and no, Lenovo is no good for attracting attention).

But then again, these are PC-s, and the P stands for Personal: tastes and habits vary. On a pure technical level, whichever runs Linux/BSD best (generally the least fancy ones) already gives enough empowerment to change the world...


I strongly suggest getting a 14.1" ThinkPad T6x series laptop. I have had a T60 for almost two years now and it has worked great. The keyboard is just amazing compared to anything else out there. The TrackPoint (little red mouse pointer thing in the keyboard) is great when you get used to it. Unless you play games, you should get the integrated graphics (great battery life and easier to get working under Linux). The only bad thing about ThinkPads is that they don't run Mac OS X (legally/easily).

If you are on a budget, I recommend getting a slightly older model (slower processor) but with as much memory as you can get. I also recommend that you get a model with the one-year warranty instead of the three-year warranty, to save money. There are so many people selling ThinkPad parts and accessories that there is no reason to pay for a warranty that you will probably never use when you can replace anything that breaks yourself for less money. I just priced one at lenovo.com and it was less than $1,100.

BTW, I strongly considered buying a MacBook but I went and tried them at the Apple store and I found that the keyboard is really horrible for programming. Only Sony VAIO is worse. No dedicated home/end/pageup/pagedown on either?!?!


Both the MacBook and VAIO have excellently clicky keyboards. When it comes to home/end/pgup/pgdown, just configure your editor properly. Moving your hands is a waste anyways.


I've had a T60 for about 16 months now. What exactly do you like about the keyboard? I've found that the keys have a tendency for things to get stuck in their movement, and the ] key had even fallen off of my keyboard. Then the whole keyboard stopped working, so they sent me a new one. I've also gotten a new power adapter (insufficient strain relief).

I personally like going with the three year warranty (but in a bundle rather than explicitly adding it on). I previously had a T22 that I ran into the ground, and over the course of its life had the motherboard, drive, and power cord replaced.


Speaking of power supplies... MAGSAFE. Nothing beats MagSafe.


Regarding "bang for your buck" Dell's are still the best bargain for compute power. Many people (rightly so) piss all over them for bad customer support, but if you buy from the "small business" side of the site instead of the "consumer/residential" side of the site, then you get small biz customer support bundled, which anecdotally is much better.


Yeah, you can get a great Dell for really cheap. They now come preinstalled with Ubuntu (http://dell.com/ubuntu), so you don't have to pay for Windoze.


I got one of those, and have really liked it. It's not going to ever get lots of looks, but I use it for programming, not showing off.

Also, in the one occasion when I needed customer service, it was really good. I bought it in the US, but called up the support line in Germany, and had a new hard drive here in Innsbruck, Austria the next day. I was pleasantly surprised: I thought I would get hassled because of the change of country, or they would be slow, or see that I had bought it with Ubuntu and give me grief for that, but they really didn't ask any questions, just sent a guy over with a new drive.


The specs on the newer vostro line of Dell laptops are pretty impressive for the price. Best value in my opinion. Dual core processors, 2GB RAM, separate 256MB video, choice of screen sizes/weights, DVD+/-RW, built in camera, 160Gb+ HDD, choice of OS and that's starting at around $700 new.

They're not pretty, but they are highly functional, don't suffer from the quality issues Dell had circa 2002 - 2006, and if something breaks or you need a peripheral of some sort, you won't be in hock to Apple for half the cost of the machine or more.


I was just shopping today and found that a Lenovo T series can be had for about the same price (within $100, to one side or the other depending on specs) as a comparable Dell Latitude, and the Latitudes don't seem to be available with Linux (only three models can be had with Linux). I'm using a Dell at the moment, and historically the price has always convinced me...but it seems like you can pretty much get a comparable Lenovo for about the same price as a Dell. (And Lenovo also offers occasional coupon codes that keep them pretty competitive even if Dell offers slightly bigger special deals on occasion.)

Yeah, I'm as surprised as you are.


15% off Code: USPSAVEMORENOW

http://www.techbargains.com/vendor_detail.cfm/96/lenovo-coup...

Lenovo ThinkPad R61 Intel Core 2 Duo T7250 14.1 inch Notebook PC $552.07 Free Shipping, May. 22 8 AM

lenovo has the Lenovo ThinkPad R61 Intel Core 2 Duo T7250 14" Widescreen Notebook PC for a low $649.50 - 15% off Coupon Code: USPSAVEMORENOW (Exp 5/26) = $552.07 Free Shipping. Tax in most states.

5.2lbs; 14.1"; Intel Core 2 Duo T7250 @ 2.0GHz; 1GB RAM; 80GB HDD; DVD-ROM/CDRW Combo; 802.11a/b/g; Linux; 1yr warranty


Good, but I think you can do better. I got a Dell with the identical specs (plus Windows) 2 years ago for $700 and change (incl shipping). The time value of those two years makes me think you can get better specs for this price.


There are really only two: the MBP and the ThinkPad.


The MBP is not great bang-to-buck. I bought one 4 years ago (PowerBook, then) and it ended up costing about $3,000. The MacBook costs just over 1/3 that. 1 year ago, I bought a MacBook to replace the failing MBP, and the difference was incredible: the regular MacBook well-exceeded everything about the MBP. I could buy a new MacBook every year (if I needed to) and it would cost the same as buying a MBP every 3 years, and that's if we don't factor in resale.

Given that the poster is using the system to learn to program, I doubt he needs the MBP. The MB should more than suit that need.


You're talking entirely about a different computer and a different time. A new Macbook Pro (such as one he might buy) comes with a much better operating system, can run Windows programs side by side, has the same processor and graphics card as leading PC counterparts, does not cost $3,000 ($1599 with Student Developer discount), has an LED Glossy option versus fluorescent matte, has more mac native apps and dev tools than ever, gives many more reasons to use it for programming like for the iPhone, as well as opportunities to create web apps in ROR, Django, and other web frameworks that did not exist at the time that now need to be tested on a Mac since it also happens to have much greater marketshare. All of this means that his computer might last for more years than before, since the hardware is already top of the line compared not just to mac machines released a year prior, but to high end pc laptops, as well, which means he might as well get the MacBook Pro.


> You're talking entirely about a different computer and a different time

I know, just as it'll change again in the next 3 years.

> A new Macbook Pro (such as one he might buy) comes with...

Most of these things come with a standard MacBook, too, so why not buy a MacBook?

Some of the things that MacBook doesn't have that the MBP does:

> $1599 with Student Developer discount

Actually, it's $1799, but that doesn't factor in taxes, which bring it to about retail, or $2000, and that's without any configuration options (the one I bought, spec'ed out again, is still $3000).

(By the way, If you're looking to buy a Mac, look at the Amazon discount over Apple's store: with free shipping and no taxes, it's almost always cheaper.)

> LED Glossy options versus fluorescent matte

True.

> All of this means that his computer might last for more years than before, since the hardware is already top of the line compared not just to mac machines released a year prior, but to high end pc laptops, as well

I guess it's whether or not you're willing to make that bet or not.

> which means he might as well get the MacBook Pro.

Or, he could save a lot of money, get an equivalent machine for his needs, and buy a new one every year and still not spend as much.


>> LED Glossy options versus fluorescent matte

>True.

False. The matte screen is LED and its unclear from the specs whether the glossy is LED or fluorescent.

From apple.com: "15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display"


Maybe I'm old fashioned, but typing "macbook pro led glossy" into Google shows the answer.


Ah, thanks. Well then I guess I can't give that one to him.


I said Student Developer discount, not Student discount.

The Student Developer discount price is $1599, the student price is $1799.


OK, so $1800ish after taxes.

You can still get a MacBook for half that, which has everything else you mentioned, so why not get a MacBook and upgrade twice as often? (With resale value, you'll be way on top.)


I calculate $1678 after taxes, a savings of $421. I thought the same thing as you and bought a MacBook for $999 but returned it because it was slower, dimmer, smaller, and more mirror-like than my glossy MacBook Pro while weighing the same and looking like a children's toy.

What ultimately caused me to return it was trying to run a 3D plugin of a scene in a drawing program. It was unbelievably slow, while I remembered how well a Dell m1330 ran, which has the same integrated video chipset, Intel's X3100. I researched that either Apple or Intel had crappy video drivers on the Mac for that chipset, which meant it was already behind the times out of the box, never mind in two years.

And with the discount, the MacBook Pro might even be sold for a profit after 3-6 months in the worst case scenario (since including taxes it's worth $2,100), but the same MacBook at either Student Developer or Student price would likely be sold for a loss.


Great points. Thanks :)


I'll agree with that. I own a MacBook Pro and although it has some nice features (larger screen, better video card, aluminum finish...) it's not totally worth the difference in price, if you're looking for an economy system.

With that said, I'll also recommend that you get a ThinkPad instead of a Mac. They're time- and battle-tested machines, and work well. The Mac may seem to have less problems, but both usually have about the same amounts of problems, but just of some different natures.

I like the Mac, and I can live with Windows. Both are good machines, and you have to try both to see which one you like better.


Even better is a Thinkpad running some flavor of GNU/Linux. They're well supported because well, frankly, they're incredible machines and hackers everywhere love them.


For people trying to run a Thinkpad with Linux i can recommend ThinkWiki (http://thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki).

It helped me alot in setting up my ThinkPad.

Back to the original Question: IMHO Thinkpads are very good and especially reliable Notebooks, but they also aren't cheap. When getting a Thinkpad then a T-Model most of the others don't differ that much from Notebooks sold by HP or Dell.


Our company has been using ThinkPads for years. In the past year standard issue has been T60p and T61p — and they're awful.

Crappy display drivers, a tendency to shut down when you plug them in or dock them, etc. etc.

We're switching to HPs now.

Me, I'm on my second MBP in 3 years and I'm happy. Another friend of mine just replaced his MacBook with a MBP, because it just wasn't quite keeping up.


I have a Thinkpad X41 Tablet that I really like. It was part of the very last product cycle to be branded IBM. Lots of people say that quality has gone downhill since then.


I owned a T42 and now a T61p. Even tough the build quality hasn't improved speaking of it having gone downhill is drastically exaggerated. The quality is comparable between the two, the nice little ideas still exist (like the keyboard light etc.) the only real change I saw was that i had to loosen 4 screws to extend the memory instead of four :-)

But one person probably isn't truly a reference... So more references are needed.


Which leads to the question.. What type of laptop will all the hackers buy if Lenovo doesn't pull things together soon?


Get both.


I agree wholeheartedly. Unless you need to do serious 3D work, the Pro is overkill. For everyday use, the plain-Jane MacBook is quite adequate. True, the hardware isn't quite a nice as ThinkPads of yore, and I loathe the glossy screen, but these are really my only complaints.


[deleted]


Sorry, I said "PowerBook, then". And in 4 years from now it may hold some other moniker.

My basic point was that if technology continues to change, the best bang for your buck is rarely the higher end. Only buy the high end if you need it and you're milking it for all it's worth.


If you're optimizing for the best bang-for-your-buck, then I agree. But if you spend all day working on a computer or depend on using a computer to make your living, I think it is very easy to justify buying highend equipment. $2.5k vs. $1.5k is not a very significant difference if it is amortized over 8 hours per day * 300 days per year.


Well, it's certainly justified, but if you have $1.5k to spare and not $2.5k, then that doesn't matter.


you only use a computer 300 days a year? and only 8 hours a day?


Well, those were just madeup numbers. If you use a computer more often, the case for getting good equipment is more compelling, of course.


Thinkpad++ I do believe some models come with linux preinstalled.

I believe thinkpad is one of the few laptops left that has what's called a stick? you know the little nub on the keyboard that you can use instead of a touch pad, and in reality it's way better than a touch pad. god I hate touch pads.

I wish I had bought a thinkpad.


The new MBPs (and MacBooks?) have a two finger touchpad interface that I've found makes a huge difference in its usability - with one finger down already controlling the mouse a second finger essentially works as a mousewheel. I can use my MBP's touchpad fine but can't stand having to use my work dell laptops w/o that feature.


Almost anyone that is willing to spend a couple of days adjusting to the ThinkPad's TrackPoint is going to be in for a treat. In particular, in most applications, holding down the center Trackpoint button will make the trackpoint work like a mousewheel (or, you can configure it to work like that all the time using its driver software.)


Most of the PC laptop touchpads that I have used will scroll the focused control if you run your finger up and down along the rightmost edge (or bottommost for horizontal motion). If yours doesn't, check your control panel settings to see if it can be enabled.

It's not quite the same as a scroll wheel in that there are some programs where one scrolling technique (wheel or trackpad) will work while the other won't, but it's similar enough to handle most cases.


oh this I'm aware of. mine has this feature. I still think touchpads (all that I have encountered) suck.

and infact on linux you can modify the area of the touchpad that does this. I think you can even add horizontal scroll if your touchpad didn't previously support it (not 100% on this).


If you're going to buy the new MacBook Pro (or another Apple laptop with multi-touch trackpad functionality) you'll want to get the application MultiClutch. It basically lets you set up rules globally or per-application that assigns gestures to keyboard shortcuts.

In other words: if I'm in Safari, I can remap three-finger swipe to changing tabs, swipe down for new tab, rotate right/left to back and forward, etc. It's very useful.


I believe the word you are searching for is Clit Mouse. Only Lenovo (Think Pad) and Dell (D620?) have them.


I've a Dell D830 with the clit mouse. Lack of said clit is one reason I stay away from macbooks.

(The better screen rez on the D830 is another)


When I purchased my Thinkpad T60 (nearly 18 months ago now -- how time flies!), the Lenovo sales staff was unable to help me find a notebook with Linux preinstalled. Maybe this has changed recently, but you're better off just buying the base Windows version and putting your favorite Linux distro on top of it.

http://www.thinkwiki.org is the best resource I'm aware of for Linux + Thinkpad installation tips.


Didn't take too long to find the model with OpenSUSE installed on their site:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPo...


The OpenSUSE models are a fairly recent addition to the lineup, and are still quite limited in terms of hardware options.


I call it the nipple. I prefer the touchpad. It's quicker and more precise.


I refer to it as the pencil eraser. Once you get used to it, you realize it has the more control than the touchpad. Its main benefit, for me, is that you never have to move your hands out of typing position.


Agreed. I haven't had the awesomeness of a dual touch touchpad, but I've had both normal ones and "the nub", and the latter is vastly preferable.


Try using it with a sniper rifle. You'll change your tune.


http://xkcd.com/243/


the only thing that was quicker 'maybe' about the touchpad was speed of learning, and ease of use. The 'nipple' is much faster and more precise if you invest more time in it. much like linux ;).


The new MBPs (and MacBooks?) have a two finger touchpad interface that I've found makes a huge difference in its usability - with one finger down already controlling the mouse a second finger essentially works as a mousewheel. I can use my MBP's touchpad fine but can't stand having to use my work dell laptops w/o that feature.


Obviously it didn't improve usability enough to stop you posting this three times :)

My MacBook Pro is my second Apple laptop (the first was a G4 powerbook) and it is going to be the last unless things change rapidly before it goes u/s.

- The keyboard is ok, but the metal finish is slippery.

- The large track pad forces typing with wrists at odd angles.

- OS X is horrible (all my applications are Linux native so work oddly on OS X, plus no focus on mouse being my biggest two complaints - the rest are subjective/personal).

- No region crack for the DVD player, which is unacceptable for travel. Doesn't even work with VLC.

On the plus side the build quality is superb, the screen is good, and for it's size/weight the performance is outstanding. I certainly wouldn't trade it for anything other than a Thinkpad or maybe two or three Dells - one a year, for when they break ;)


> all my applications are Linux native

I've seen people get OS X and then do nothing but run XP under virtualization because they can't be bothered to figure out the OS X native apps. I wonder what, exactly, you mean by "all my applications?"


Inkscape, open office, some custom PM software I wrote myself, front ends to eJabberd/mySQL/Apache/Cyrus, emacs, LaTeX and Firefox.

Plus a few things that aren't so important, like xplanet and SuperKaramba.


Yeah, I'm in the same (weird) boat. I've been using Linux as my primary OS for so many years (about 10, now) that a Windows or Mac machine feels hopelessly short of applications to me. I know the reality is the opposite...it's just that when I think, "I need to draw a new icon", I don't think "open Illustrator", I think "open Inkscape", and almost every "I need to..." thought involves the command line (because I work faster there, mostly), and Mac OS X and Windows are hopelessly baroque when it comes to the command line.

Then again, these days, I use so few "Linux only" applications that it would probably be easier than ever to switch. My "regular usage" list is: vim, Firefox, Thunderbird, Perl, bash (and all of the GNU tools, like sed, grep, find, locate, awk, etc.), GIMP, Inkscape, VNC, KVM. But I'd still have to have Linux boxes or virtual machines around, because I need build environments for a dozen or so Linux distributions. And bash and the GNU tools are so vital to my workflow that I'd be suffering a lot of the time.

So, I've considered getting a Mac so that I'd be surrounded by great design (I'm becoming more of a designer and usability guy within my company every day, and my design sense is still woefully inadequate for the job, and I've read on numerous occasions and from numerous sources that one great technique for improving is to surround yourself with great design), but it'd certainly be painful.

Also, middle-mouse-button paste is vital to my happiness, and neither Mac OSX nor Windows has it.


I've got all those "Linux only" applications working on Windows and OSX.

You may have to learn new shortcuts or how to configure things in Windows or OSX but it is all doable. For windows you may have to install Cygwin or PowerShell to get a respectable prompt.

I use a windows box at work. I use Mac and Windows at home. I recently switched from Ubuntu to OSX and I ran into many of the same problems initially. I wanted things to work exactly the same as Ubuntu and that just wasn't happening. After about three months I learned many of the OSX shortcuts and finally configured and set up my linux programs for OSX. Now it's all good.


I didn't say anything in my list was "Linux only". I said, "I use so few "Linux only" applications that it would probably be easier than ever to switch". So, basically, I was saying, there aren't very many Linux only apps anymore that I use regularly, but that my style of working would be uncomfortable on Windows or Mac.

So, my statement agrees with yours, I think.

I have worked in Windows environments quite a bit when doing contract work, and I'm familiar with Cygwin, but it's not an acceptable command line environment--the way it chafes when doing anything outside of the Cygwin environment is too much friction.

Mac OS X is slightly better now that it has bash by default. But its system tools are weak compared to those found on Linux systems. I feel this same pain when using Solaris and FreeBSD. In all three cases, it's possible to install good versions of those tools, but I have to retrain my fingers to call gawk instead of awk, etc.

Again, it would be easier than ever, because vim has good versions on both Mac and Win, and Perl runs fine everywhere. Firefox and Thunderbird, too. But retraining myself to work in the Mac or Windows way would be uncomfortable. And I hate being uncomfortable.


It's not a boat, it's a rusty old battleship, but the guns work :)


The new MBPs (and MacBooks?) have a two finger touchpad interface that I've found makes a huge difference in its usability - with one finger down already controlling the mouse a second finger essentially works as a mousewheel. I can use my MBP's touchpad fine but can't stand having to use my work dell laptops w/o that feature.


I wouldn't knock the MacBook too much. Under $1000 if you check Apple's refurb section (store.apple.com, scroll down and look in the left sidebar), and you can run Windows or Linux if you wind up hating Apple gear. Buy the cheap model and swap in your own larger HD and 4GB of RAM and you'll have quite a decent laptop for not a whole lot of money.

If you hate Apple, then I'd go with a ThinkPad personally, but I don't know what's good on that side of things.


One other thing I forgot to mention: Apple refurb gear carries the same 1-year warranty that new Apple gear does, and you still have the ability to buy AppleCare (extended warranty) on it.

Generally, you're not giving up a whole lot going refurb except a shinier box and the ability to BTO.


I think the MacBook is worth considering. I like its form factor better than the MBP's.

If I was unable to use an external screen for extended sessions at home I might favor the larger screen.


Who upmods these demonstratably false statements anyway? The falsehood gnomes? Huh?


MB/MBP runs TextMate, ThinkPad does not. That's the main difference.


I think you're approaching it from a wrong standpoint. You should start off by telling us what you're going to program in and what your OS and tools of choice are.


The article author is learning to program. Not learn to program in something, learning to program. I doubt it would be a good idea to tell us that, since it would be, in effect, limiting options for exploration. (Well, or just giving us false data, which wouldn't be as bad.)


Watch out for the cheap laptops. These are really enticing options and I am typing on one now. As a student and planning to run linux on it anyway, I thought it would be a good idea to save my money and get a cheapie. I bought an Acer about a year ago and after a good amount of usage I realized my mistake. After having this thing on for about an hour or so it gets hot. I mean hot lava burn your nuts so you won't have children hot. Not only is this an inconvenience, but the performance goes down as well. I can't watch videos for more than 15 minutes and even youtube can be annoyingly choppy. None the less it does get the job done when it comes to programming, as most laptops out will.

My friend gave me good advice about this once when I was complaining, he said "Why would you try to save money on a tool that will not only be the basis for your profession, but also the device you will spend most of your day on?". He was right. Its like trying to save 150 bucks on a bed that has a huge lump in the middle that makes you wake up with a sore back every morning. Its not worth saving the money. Don't worry so much about bang for the buck, focus on getting that consistent bang to get the job done each day without added stress. A carpenter wouldn't go to work each day with a plastic hammer and a nail file instead of a saw, so approach your purchase with the same logic. Find out your needs, find the tools that meets those needs, and then make your decision from that point. Don't let money be that big of an influence, you will regret it.


Honestly, I'd recommend looking for a used Thinkpad -- something from the T41/X41 era will be cheap (<$500), well-built, and extremely well-supported under just about any recent Linux distro.

I used an X41 as a mobile development box for quite a while, and only upgraded to a MacBook Pro when I started shooting a lot of RAW photos with my DSLR and wanted to run Lightroom.


Thanks for this. I'm just selling my Macbook core2duo on ebay at the moment. I use a mac mini with a 23" screen at home, and I don't take the macbook out much because it's heavy and valuable, so mainly it just sits there doing nothing.

I have been planning to get the new eeepc (when it comes out in a week or two) - I hadn't considered a second hand thinkpad.

Thanks very much indeed for a great tip.


Get a Dell. I've had one for 4 years now and it has held up pretty well. It did cost me around $2000 but it has been worth it. If you really want a 'cheap' laptop get a refurbished one.


I went to a mac reseller and told him I wanted a mac laptop for $200 if he had anything, even if it needed a repair, like a hard drive. He did. In September 2006 he had a late 2004 ibook G4 for $200. The hard drive was wearing out but still usable. Ended up replacing the hard drive for another $100, and put another 1GB ram in it (for a total 1.25GB ram) but totally worth it. Upgraded to Leopard and it's even better. Firefox 3, and it's even better. Total of ~$550 and I've got a pretty decent laptop.

I got my wife a Dell under the Tulane student discount, loaded Ubuntu dual boot, and she chooses Ubuntu. I wouldn't recommend a Dell, but it sure attests to the usability of Ubuntu.

I'm not sure I would get a macbook simply because I can't stand the short screen, glossy or not. MBP is definitely not a budget buy. Thinkpads seem awefully nice. Since you can run linux on a mac now, I would think the question comes down to do you or do you not want OS X?

I have to say though, I have never been more please than getting a $200 iBook. It used to get deadly slow if you leave firefox 2 open for days, but with firefox 3, it got a new breath of life.


Under $400 (Prolly not you): Eee and OLPC battle!

Under $700: You just walk into best buy and try to max out ram/HD/Optical Drive/USB Ports and stuff. Its hard to say who's a sure winner becuase this category is so tight.

$700-1000: Either do what you did for the lower price range, or sometimes you can get a lower end PC from the next price range, if you know where to look.

Over $1000: Thinkpad, MBP, Dell Precision, HP 85xx/87xx series.


budget + starting to learn => don't underestimate the second hand market

despite lusting for a MPB I recently acquired a hp nc4400 second hand which rocks when I am away from the desktop it runs Hardy and all the soft I need for my coding (and I am not starting to learn :P)

... and you get the feeling that your are doing something for the environment in the process (not that I'm a hardcore green or anything ;)


Buy something used; the Powerbook G4 I use seems to go for about $500 on eBay.


The best Unix machine you can get (things just work, no driver issues) is a MacBook Pro. It also allows you to develop for iPhone, and for Windows if you use Parallels or VMware. If cost (comparing with crappy Dells that come with Vista, egads) is an issue, I invite you to check your wallet for this amazing device called a credit card. It's worked wonders for me.


Are you a mac, linux or windows user?

What's your budget? A budget of < $1200 basically rules out any recent mac laptop.


I got a refurb macbook from apple for $800 or $900. With a recent Core 2 Duo processor, it's very snappy. Only downside is it came with only 1GB RAM. That's surprisingly tolerable for basic use, but application switching starts getting slow with my ~50 tabs of Firefox and overloaded Eclipse install. Easy to fix for cheap, though, as I will be soon.


I use an HP/Compaq NC6000, $300 on eBay. Make sure you get the widescreen (1440w) version with integrated Bluetooth, and expand it to 1GB RAM. It runs everything I need for interactive development, including hogs like Photoshop, Flash, and the Eclipse-based Flex Builder 3; the Bluetooth means I can get internet access through my smartphone; it's fairly light and has a real-world battery life of three hours under steady use; its battery is swappable, so you can carry a spare; and you can afford to lose it, which is a very distinct possibility if you're carrying it around a bustling city all day. (I live in Manhattan.)

Even the best backup plan and warranty won't cover the "oh FUCK ME" moment when you realize your $3000 laptop just got lost, dropped, or stolen.


If you have small hands, the eee pc might be nice.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE...


I've got an eee and a development box it is not.


Uh, most ultra portable laptops have keyboards that are 95% the size of a normal keyboard. I don't get where the small hand thing comes from. Maybe if you have huge hands the 5% makes a difference, but for 99% of people it's not even noticeable.


the eee is extra tiny. the macbook keyboard is a good size. And that new HP eee competitor has a good sized keyboard, but the eee is frustrating.


What are your requirements and what is your budget?

If you're purely looking for a cheap machine that will hold up decently well, you're going to be looking at a Dell + warranty.

If you're looking for higher quality (and price point), you're going towards Lenovo/Apple


I bought a MacBook. Bought 4GB ram and 320 GB hard drive and replace the factory one. Total cost without warranty and before tax: $1099 (MacBook) + $139 (disk) + $98 (4GB).

I need to add $79 for VMWare Fusion to run different VMs for FreeBSD, Linux and another $150 for Windows XP pro. But this laptop will have all client system that I need to use.

I guess you can do the same thing on Lenovo ThinkPads with similar cost or maybe cheaper. If you don't need to write stuffs for OS X/iPhone, you just need to use Safari Windows to check your web sites.

Since your are beginner to learn programming. I guess a ThinkPad with Linux and you can start to learn python right away.


You don't need anything fancy, save as much as you can, and buy additional ram (possibly from a 3rd party site for much cheaper rates).

I have 2 gigs and frequently go to the limit with the number of apps I have open. Slowdowns due to lack of ram can really kill your flow.

I have a regular macbook, mainly because of OS X, which gives me unix tools with an OS that just works. Apple's hardware is ok, not great. I've had issues with 3 out of 3 notebooks. That said, the issues have become smaller (so Apple's QC seems to have improved).

If I could run OS X on cheaper hardware, I would do it in an instance. I don't need to show off at the coffee shop. :)


If you're just starting to learn to program than any laptop you get will be sufficient. If you go Windows, HP's are pretty slick. They're fast, good looking, easy to carry, and have great multimedia features. I personally have a ThinkPad, HP, and Dell. I use the Dell the most but the HP is extremely light and small and great for traveling. If I had to choose one I'd go with the Dell. I got a MBP for work and that's great, but I still prefer Windows/nix. The ThinkPad is old. Haven't used a new one of those since before Lenovo.


I'm a pretty big fan of the Lenovo X series if you want to go Windows. You may want to look at the T instead if you're not planning on using an external monitor though due to screen sizes.


I've been using a model n200 from Lenovo's 3000 series(the consumer ones, a grade below Thinkpads) and am relatively pleased. Build quality is lower than a Thinkpad, but I've had no trouble using it daily since last summer, toting it around, scratching it up....it's taken one fall, and the only thing that happened was the battery came loose.

Main caveat: have to baby its airflow so that it doesn't overheat. Vista will throttle on overheating, Linux won't, at least not the kernel I'm using.


We use Toshiba A200-AH9 laptops running Ubuntu. Intel wifi just works. 9-cell battery. Only downside is the resolution if you don't use an external monitor and no bluetooth.


Good point about the Intel chipsets - they work better with open source drivers than, say, nvidia.


you can get an almost unobtrusive (only sticks out a fw mm-s) usb bt adaptor for the price of a sandwich. It is very popular for the eee.


Macbook. They're updating them soon, so you might want to wait for that to happen, and then either buy an old one for less, or a new one with new features.


Random thoughts: the MacbookPro and thinkpads, besides everything said here, have the highest resale value, for sure. But i would definitely avoid the early MBPs, lots of heat issues, bulging batteries and keyboards. The recent ones, including mine, still seem to not sleep/hibernate properly.

Buy used from Craigslist. Make sure you get original purchase receipt, O/S install DVD's. Or from Costco. 90 day return policy.


a couple other things: look for a full complement Control, Alt, Option keys on the right side of keyboard. Very important for a lotta editors, emacs, textmate.

off-topic, but i've never seen this discussed anywhere. TO dual head my toshiba laptop with ubuntu Gutsy, I choose gutsy in grub with external monitor disconnected, then plug it in about 4 seconds later. It works, no nasty xorg.conf to edit.


About 18 months ago, I bought a Dell laptop (dual core, 2 gigs RAM, etc.) and it has worked really well for me through short (day) and long (to Australia) trips. As a contractor, it has made me a lot of money because I can show customers their software at their site, and I can make adjustments as needed on site. A quick turnaround time for changes is essential to happy customers.


I bought the lowest model Macbook (not pro) for ~1000 bucks and then bought 4G of ram at Fry's for $60. Its worked great for a year now. Most of my friends have pro's but mine has worked just as good for me. I like the smaller size as well.

Another great thing about the macbooks is their high resale value. Factor that into the cost.


I recommend checking out powernotebooks.com before you decide. You might like what you see there. I have a Sager that I recently purchased from them; it's a great machine, well-built, and since it's factory direct, it's less expensive than a comparable machine from most other vendors.


If you're going to buy MBP from apple, try buying refurbished ones from apple online store, they're about 15-25% less than the brand new ones. I think the refurbished ones go through extra testing as well, so I think its a pretty good deal.


Dell D830 with the WUXGA 1920x1200 screen rez.

Very cool. Ubuntu 8.04 works like a charm.


What about something like this?

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=204814777&list...


If you consider using ThinkPad, you can find the following specialized forum useful: http://forum.thinkpads.com


Also, your options may vary according to whether you care about any of the following points: 1. weight and size (do you want to have your laptop with you all the time and feel light on the go) 2. battery working time (do you want to work on batteries for long periods of time) 3. screen quality and brightness (be prepared that laptops in general are backwards from desktops in this regard) 4. keyboard quality and size 5. drive size, longevity and durability 6. network acess options (some laptops have cellular modem built-in, so theoretically you will be able to stay connected really anywhere; need that?)

If you don't care, that's easier for you. If you do care (like me) - then you should do some serious research and, frankly, can still have some backwards thoughts after your purchase.

I was in the situation similar to yours, i.e. I wanted a laptop to be able to learn programming in different places. As a long time computer user, I had my specific preferences: 1. minimum weight and size; I want to have my laptop with me all the time and not feel constrained with it 2. maximum battery working time. noone thinks that a cell phone that is only able to work half of a day is ok, why is it ok for laptop? in the meanwhile, I want a laptop with a battery life as long as possible. 3. i wasn't concerned about screen quality, as I don't want to edit images on my laptop but mainly work with text and programs. but now I think screen of my current IBM X60s could really be brighter. it's ok to use in rooms, when not under direct sunlight, but not with the minimum brightness settings. viewing angles are decent, but cold be better too. in general, from what i gather, IBM/Lenovo is very conservative in their choice of screens. In non-Apple world, the only company whose laptops' get frequent praise for their screens is Sony. 4. i'm very used to desktop keyboard, so the more I was inclined to buy a ThinkPad: their keyboards are often said to be of great quality and the key placement is the closest to desktop that I've seen. 5. i don't need file storage of great size, but I really want to be sure that my hard drive won't break. so I chose SSD (these models don't come with them standard, the hdd was upgraded manually by the prev. owner) 6. i wanted to have cellular modem built-in, so I went a bit out of the way to get it: here in Russia the models with WWAN are not sold, so I bought import model and had to unlock it with a special program. It works now! also: I needed Windows. In fact I think that open-source OS is the wave of the future, but I don't ride that wave. I'm deeply rooted in Windows. XP is fine for me, don't need Vista. mat screen. 4x3 screen proportions. lower dpi screen, please. 1024x768 on 12" is ok (107 dpi), but higher resolution screens have higher dpi - I have problems with those. I have good vision, but I don't want to strain it.

So, after careful consideration, that brought me the following laptop: IBM X60s (1702-64M) 12.1 1024x768 | CD 1.66LV | 2GB | 32GB SSD | BT+abg+WWAN(MC8755) [1,5 kg, 6..8 hours of mild work] I bought it from a ThinkPads forum member in Australia. I'm generally quite happy with it, but I'm still yet to get adjusted to some issues like the smallish keyboard (maybe a light 14" would be better? or should I just adjust to this one?) and not very bright screen (it's ok in the room, but when I'm on a bus and there's sunshine in the street and the bus turns - oops, I can't see anything anymore :) - maybe a Sony would be better)


i have been happy with the toshiba r205 s209

originally retailed for $2200 but i've seen them lately for around $800.

Spend an extra $100 and load up the RAM to 1.25GB. It runs linux like a charm and gets great battery life.

Best of all, it's got a titanium case and doesn't flex and groan the way mac laptops do. It's light and rock solid.

For $800 it's by far the best deal you'll find today.

If you like games, don't buy it however b/c it has a slow graphics card for 3d stuff (I don't play games)...


I just bought a Lenovo T61p (ThinkPad mobile workstation), but it was very nearly a coin-flip decision vs a Dell XPS M1530. www.notebookreview.com


I'm looking at MSI Winds with great interest. If you can handle the small display, you that might be good for you.

Price should be at $400-500ish


all laptops have one of the highest failure rates in all of mainstream consumer electronics.

that said: i will add to the groups discussion i am a die hard thinkpad guy. the 'stick button' is SO MUCH more effective than a touchpad. they are fantastic machines. X series are small light and about $1k - $1.5k. i never spend more.

downside: Windows. or worse... VISTA!


I'm using the Dell Precision series and I'm really happy with it. Its hardware is well supported by Linux.


Let me warn you: DO NOT BUY A MACBOOK! Let me tell you my story...

A few months back, I decided to travel to china. I sold off my desktop, and because the macbook was small and nice looking, I bought it. I installed windows on it, installed bootcamp and all was fine, and I really loved this notebook for a few months.

But the thing is, in China, I was constantly on the move. And I was moving with the laptop all the time in my bag. The macbook does not deal with this well at all. Two nasty things happened: First, my hard drive failed a mere 4 months after I bought it. I lost weeks of work, and the Apple repair store would not replace it for me for 3 weeks because of chinese new year. So I bought a new hard drive and did it myself. The instructions online do not mention that you need a very strange and difficult to find screwdriver to do this.

Next thing that happend is that a piece of plastic along the edge broke off. The problem with the macbooks body is that when a piece along the edge chips off, the entire edge slowly peels of. My laptop is losing the edge, and now the resell value is less than half of the original because it looks fugly as hell.

Some other things:

* The white macbook gets dirty as hell quickly

* Bootcamp is no longer free! You need to buy Mac OSX to get the new version of Bootcamp. There are some on the torrent sites, but you never know what trojan you'll be getting, and a trojan in a kernel driver is nasty

* When booting windows, the keyboard does not always get detected at startup. When reinstalling from CD, this can be frustrating. And if you have that 30 seconds countdown on windows, you have to wait for it to countdown because the keyboard is not detected. You also cannot go into safe mode.

* There is no frickin right click on the keyboard. For development work, it's very annoying. Try using Eclipse or Visual Studio without right click.

* There are no fricking curly braces or square brackets or the pipe symbol on my macbook keyboard! You cannot open or close functions, you cannot index arrays and you cannot do a logical OR. Who came up with that braindead keyboard designs. Also, there is no printscreen key. You never know how much that screen is useful till its gone. (this is the german keyboard layout I'm talking about)

* In some rooms with overhead projects, the audio of the macbook goes on and off randomly. I learnt this the hard way when tryign to do a presentation. This probably has to do with the remote control

* The webcam is mirrored.

* If a CD is inside and your macbook has no power, there is no way of getting it out

* The macbook comes with a minidv video output, A.K.A make them pay extra money

* The coolness factor of a macbook is long gone. Everyone and their grandma own a macbook

On the positive side: * Has webcam

I'm about to switch my laptop as soon as I can get apple to repair that hard drive for me. I've done some reaearch, and I'm going for the:

LENOVO THINKPAD x61t

It's a rugged looking tablet PC, smaller than the macbook, has a docking station and is not particularly expensive.

Conclusion: Macbook is like a pretty but crazy girlfriend. In the beginning, you are madly in love, and later you have to break up when bits start falling off!


I think a lot of these grievances apply to any notebook, really.

* Any white computer, like a white car, is going to look super dirty.

* Bootcamp comes with any new MacBook as part of the package. You would only need to worry about trojans(!?) if you were buying an old, used machine and didn't have the extra money for 10.5. It's a fraction of the price of Vista, so what's the trouble here?

* The German keyboard sure is peculiar (http://flickr.com/photos/fuzheado/453807351/) but is this just an Apple thing? How does Asus, Toshiba or Lenovo compare?

* Right-clicking is usually done with control, and that works in VMWare, but BootCamp is a different deal. If Apple had better Windows trackpad drivers, they could fix this.

* The webcam only appears to be mirrored, it's all done in software. You can turn this option off.

* Any CD stuck in a machine that's slot load will be difficult to rescue if the power is off.

* The MiniDV output is a bit of a pain because you need a dongle, but you can use VGA, DVI or composite from the same port. Most notebooks only have a VGA port which is probably more convenient until you want DVI, in which case you need a new notebook.

* If you need to buy a computer to 'be cool', then I guess you need a MacBook Air. That's gold-plated. With diamonds.


Bootcamp upgrades are not free. I have the old bootcamp, but want the new one. Why should we pay for driver upgrades? It goes against my philosophies.

Apple is the only computer maker with that wierd layout. All others are sane.


Get a refurbished mac. If you are going to program you should have a mac. The 21rst century computer company.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: