It's when an organization grows and the software grows and the monolith starts to get unwieldy that it makes sense to go to microservices. It's then that the advantage of microservices both at the engineering and organizational level really helps.
A team of three engineers orchestrating 25 microservices sounds insane to me. A team of of thirty turning one monolith into 10 microservices and splitting into 10 teams of three, each responsible for maintaining one service, is the scenario you want for microservices.
Even though we are in the early stages of redesign, I’m already seeing some drawbacks and challenges that just didn’t exist before:
- Performance. Each of the services talks to the other service via well-defined JSON interface (OpenAPI/Swagger yaml definitions). This sounds good in theory, but parsing JSON and then serializing it N times has a real performance cost. In a giant “monolith” (in the Java world) EJB talked to each other, which despite being java-only (in practice), was relatively fast, and could work across web app containers. In hindsight, it was probably a bad decision to JSON-ize all the things (maybe another protocol?)
- Management of 10-ish repositories and build jobs. We have Jenkins for our semi-automatic CI. We also have our microservices in a hierarchy, all depending on a common parent microservice. So naturally, branching, building and testing across all these different microservices is difficult. Imagine having to roll back a commit, then having to find the equivalent commit in the two other parent services, then rolling back the horizontal services to the equivalent commit, some with different commit hooks tied to different JIRA boards. Not fun.
- Authentication/Authorization also becomes challenging since every microservice needs to be auth-aware.
As I said we are still early in this, so it is hard to say if we reduced our footprint/increased productivity in a measurable way, but at least I can identify the pitfalls at this point.
If you ditch the HTTP stuff while you're at it, you can also handily circumvent all the ambiguities and inter-developer holy wars that are all but inherent to the process of taking your service's semantics, whatever they are, and trying to shoehorn them into a 30-year-old protocol that was really only meant to be used for transferring hypermedia documents. Instead you get to design your own protocol that meets your own needs. Which, if you're already building on top of something like protobuf, will probably end up being a much simpler and easier-to-use protocol than HTTP.
Now when someone goes to replace one side, it’s often impossible to even figure out a full definition of the structure of the data, much less the semantics. You watch a handful of data come across the pipe, build a replacement that handles everything you’ve seen, and then spend the next few months playing whack-a-mole fixing bugs when data doesn’t conform to your structural or semantic expectations.
JSON lets you get away with never really specifying your APIs, and your APIs often devolve to garbage by default. Then it becomes wildly difficult to ever replace any of the parts. JSON for internal service APIs is unmitigated evil.
I've migrated multiple services out of our monolith into our micro service architecture and oh boy, it is just impossible to know (or find someone who knows) what structure is passed around, or what key is actually being used or not.
Good luck logging everything and pulling your hair documenting everything from the bottom up.
That's hardly a JSON problem. You still experience that problem if you adopt any undocumented document format or schema.
But then, of course, that can be considered boilerplate code (and, in the beginning and most of the time, it actually is just a duplication of your internal object structure).
The easiest path with JSON is to do none of this, and so the majority of teams (particularly inexperienced ones) do none of it. With protos, someone must at least sit down and authoritatively outline the structure of any data being passed around, so at a minimum you’ll have that.
But even just forcing developers to do this generally means they start thinking about the API, and have a much higher chance of documenting the semantics and cleaning up parts that might otherwise have been unclear, confusing, or overly complex.
They are literally infinitely faster to encode/decode than protobuf.
They even have the same obnoxious append-only extensibility of protobuf if that’s what really gets your jimmies firing.
1) I'm the author of Cap'n Proto; I'm probably biased.
2) A lot could have changed since 2014. (Though, obviously, serialization formats need to be backwards-compatible which limits the amount they can change...)
Start out with protobufs, so you can take advantage of gRPC and all of its libraries and all the other tooling that is out there.
If you profile and determine that serialization/deserialization is actually a bottleneck in your system in a way that is product-relevant or has non-trivial resource costs, then you can look at migrating to FlatBuffers, which can still use gRPC.
that should not happen.
if it does you don't have a microservice architecture, you have a spaghetti service architecture.
The same issue appeared when OOP was fairly new: people started using it heavily and ended up making messes. They were then told that they were "doing it wrong". OOP was initially sold as magic reusable Lego blocks that automatically create nice modularity. There was even an OOP magazine cover showing just that: a coder using magic Legos that farted kaleidoscopic glitter. Microservices is making similar promises.
It took a while to learn where and how to use OOP and also when not to: it sucks at some things.
If X is a technology I don't like, and it's not working for you, then it's the wrong solution.
If X is a technology I don't like, and it is working for you, then you simply haven't scaled enough to understand its limitations.
If X is a technology I like, but it's not working for you, then your shop is "doing X wrong".
If X is a technology I like, and it's working for you, then it's the right solution and we're both very clever.
> How does one know if X is the wrong solution or if X is the right solution but the shop is "doing X wrong"?
Edit: And a civil conversation ensued. :)
You have an auth.yourapp.com and api.yourapp.com and maybe tracer.yourapp.com and those three things are not a single app that behaves like auth, api or tracer depending on setting of a NODE_ENV variable? If so, you have micro services.
A "service" is not defined principally by a code repository or communications-channel boundary (though it should have the latter and may have the former), but by a coupling boundary.
OTOH, maintaining a coupling boundary can have non-obvious pitfalls; e.g., supported message format versions can become a source of coupling--if you roll back a service to the version that can't send message format v3, but a consumer of the messages requires v3 and no longer supports consuming v2, then you have a problem.
The whole point of a microservice is to create a service boundary. If you have a private interface where both sides are maintained by the same team, both sides should be in the same service.
When all applications are adjusted, the accept-headers request a protobuff format in return.
=> Propagated everywhere except when a js ajax calls happens to the api-gateway.
That assertion is not true. Media type API versioning is a well established technique.
Be that as it may, I believe mirkules's issue is not an uncommon one. Perhaps saying "building a microservice architecture 'the right way' is a complex and subtle challenge" would capture a bit of what both of you are saying.
Something being complex and therefor easy to mess up does not mean it's a great system and the users are dumb, especially if there are other (less complicated, less easy to mess up) ways to complete the task.
Supporting API versioning is not a complex or subtle challenge. It's actually a very basic requirement of a microservice architecture. It's like having to test null pointers: it requires additional work but it's still a very basic requirement if you don't want your app to blow up in your face.
You are right. It should not happen. It is difficult to see these pitfalls when unwinding an unwieldy monolith, and, as an organization all you’ve ever done are unwieldy monoliths, that have a gazillion dependencies, interfaces and factories.
We learned from it, and we move on - hopefully, it serves as a warning to others.
Monolith has huge advantage when maybe your code is like 100k lines or below:
1. Easy cross module unit testing/integration testing, thus sharing components is just easier.
2. Single deployment process
3. CR visibility automatically promotes to all parties of interests, assuming the CR process is working as desired.
4. Also, just a personal preference, easier IDE code suggestion. If you went through json serializing/de-serializing across module boundary, type inference/cohesion is just out-of-reach.
And it is not like monolith doesn't have separation of concern at all. After all, monolith can have modules, and submodules. Start abstracting using file system API, but grouping relevant stuff into folders, before put them into different packages. After all, once diverging, it is really hard to go back.
Unless you have a giant team and more than enough engineers to spare for devops. Micrservices can be considered as a organizational premature optimization.
And people say web applications are never CPU bound :)
JSON has its advantages, I prefer a feature flag when I need performance ( protobuff vs Json), http headers do the rest
Knowing absolutely nothing about your product, this sounds like a bad way to split up your monolith.
Probably something like 5 teams of 3 each managing 1 microservice would be a better way to split things up. That way each team is responsible for defining their service's API, and testing and validating the API works correctly including performance requirements. This structure makes it much less likely services will change in a tightly coupled way. Also, each service team must make sure new functionality does not break existing APIs. Which all make it less likely to have to roll back multiple commits across multiple projects.
The performance issues you cite, also seem to indicate you have too many services, because you are crossing service boundaries often, with the associated serialization and deserialization costs. So each service probably should be doing more work per call.
"all depending on a common parent microservice"
This makes you microservices more like a monolith all over again, because a change in the parent can break something in the child, or prevent the child from changing independently of the parent.
Shared libraries I think are a better approach.
"Authentication/Authorization also becomes challenging since every microservice needs to be auth-aware."
Yes, this is a pain. Because security concerns are so important, it is going to add significant overhead to every service to make sure you get it right, no matter what approach you use.
Surely splitting up your application along arbitrary lines based on advice of an internet stranger whose never seen the application and doesn't know the product/business domain just isn't sound way of approaching the problem.
Conway's Law is profound. Lately I realized even the physical office layout (if you have one) acts as an input into your architecture via Conway's Law.
We used to have a parent maven pom and common libraries but got rid of most of that because it caused too much coupling. Now we create smaller more focused common libraries and favor copy/paste code over reuse to reduce coupling. We also moved a lot of the cross cutting concerns into Envoy so that the services can focus on business functionality.
This looks like a big step backwards to me.
In my opinion, decoupling should be prioritized over DRYness (within reason). A microservice should be able to live fairly independently from other microservices. While throwing out shared libraries (which can be maintained and distributed independently from services) seems like overkill, it seems much better than having explicit inheritance between microservice projects like the original poster is describing.
For any non trivial code, which needs to be maintained and be kept well tested, to the contrary of the OP, I would favor shared libraries over copy/paste.
Would that user object be the responsibility of one service, or written to many tables in the system under different services, or...?
Do we accept that sometimes things may be out of sync until they aren't? That can be a jarring user experience. Do we wait on the Service B event until responding to the client request? That seems highly coupled and inefficient.
I'm genuinely confused as to how to solve this, and it's hard to find good practical solutions to problems real apps will have online.
I suppose the front end could be smart enough to know "we haven't received an ack from Service B, make sure that record has a spinner/a processing state on it".
Also, you should check your domains and bounded contexts and reevaluate whether A and B are actually different services. They might still legitimately be separate. Just something to check.
Then your question is about optimizing on top of the usual architecture which hopefully is an infrequent source of pain that is worth the cost of making it faster. I could imagine some clever caching, Service A and Service B both subscribing to a source of events that deal with the data in question, or just combining Service A and B into one component.
For the same reason monoliths tend to split when the organization grows, it is often more manageable to have a small number of services per team (ideally 1, or less).
It's ok if a service owns more than one type of entity.
It's less good if a service owns more than one part of your businesses' domain, however
People seem to forget that there’s a continuum between monolith and microservices, it’s not one or the other.
Multiple monoliths, “medium”-services, monolith plus microservices, and so on are perfectly workable options that can help transition to microservices (if you ever need to get there at all).
Definitely don't just stuff unrelated stuff into a service since a team that normally deals with that service is now working on unrelated stuff. If the unrelated stuff takes off, you now have two teams untangling your monolithic service.
That said, I'm a big fan of medium sized services, the kind of thing that might handle 10 or 20 different entities.
More likely, I suspect, is that either you are shipping way too much data around, you have too much synchrony, or some other problem is being being hidden in the distribution. (I once dealt with an ESB service that took 2.5 seconds to convert an auth token from one format to another. I parallelized the requests, and the time to load a page went from 10 sec to <3; then I yanked the service's code into our app and that dropped to milliseconds.)
Performance problems in large distributed systems are a pain to diagnose and the tools are horrible.
This also means that each service should have no other services as dependencies, and if they do, you have to many separate services and you should probably look into why hey aren't wrapped up together.
Using a stream from a different service is one thing: You should have clearly defined interfaces for inter-service communication. But if updating a service means you also need to fix an upstream service, your doing it wrong and are actually causing more work than just using a monolith.
EDIT: and because you have clearly defined interfaces, these issues with updating one service and affecting another service literally cannot exist if you've done the rest correctly.
- Performance: use gRPC/protobuf instead of HTTP/OpenAPI, really not much of a reason to use HTTP/OpenAPI for internal endpoints these days
- Repo Management: No one is stopping you from using a monorepo but yourselves :)
Our product is a collection of large systems used by many customers with very different requirements - and so we often fall into this configurability trap: “make everything super configurable so that we don’t have to rebuild, and let integration teams customize it”
Each service should be fully independent, able to be be deployed & rolled-back w/o other services changing.
If you're making API changes, then you have to start talking about API versioning and supporting multiple versions of an API while clients migrate, etc.
Which adds some more complexity that just does not exist in monolythic architecture
It's not just the serialization cost but latency (https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832) as well, every step of the process adds latency, from accessing the object graph, serializing it, sending it to another process and/or over the network, then building up the object graph again.
The fashion in .net apps used to be to separate service layers from web front ends and slap an SOA (the previous name for micro-services) label on it. I experimented with moving the service to in process and got an instant 3x wall clock improvement on every single page load, we were pissing away 2/3rds of our performance and getting nothing of value from it. And this was int the best case scenario, a reasonably optimized app with binary serialization and only a single boundary crossing per user web request.
Other worse apps I've worked on since had the same anti-pattern but would cross the service boundary dozens/hundreds/thousands of times and very simple pages would take several seconds to load. It's enterprise scale n+1.
If you want to share code like this then make a dll and install it on every machine necessary, you've got to define a strict API either way.
- Logging. All messages pertaining to a request (or task) should have a unique ID across the entire fleet of services in order to follow the trail while debugging.
Thoughts must obviously be given to protocols. Json is an obvious bad choice for this use case...
The point of microservices is loose coupling, including in the code. Having a code hierarchy negates this and arguably is bad practice in general.
Can you explain this a bit more? I thought the point was to have each service be as atomic as possible, so that a change to one service does not significantly impact other services in terms of rollbacks/etc.
If I'm wrong here let me know, our company is still early days of figuring out how to get out of the problems presented by monolith (or in our case, mega-monolith).
My unscientific impression is that some of the organizational costs - just keeping the teams coordinated and on the same page - can become even more "expensive" than the technical costs.
Does each micro service have to live in it's own repository? Especially with a common library everyone uses?
Its not really a micro service - its a distributed monolith
People forget the original 'microservice': the database. No one thinks about it as adding the complexity of other 'services' because the boundaries of the service are so well defined and functional.
A team size of 10 should be able to move fast and do amazing things. This has been the common wisdom for decades. Get larger, then you spend too much time communicating. There's a reason why Conway's Law exists.
The generation of programmers that Martin Fowler is from, are exactly the people from whom I got my ideas around how organization politics effect software and vice versa. There was plenty of cynicism around organization politics back then.
> We do not claim that the microservice style is novel or innovative, its roots go back at least to the design principles of Unix.
By the way, for a relatively small service to be shared by multiple applications, try RDBMS stored procedures first.
Was there a consensus resolution?
Smalltalk is awesome. Everyone else is doing it wrong, those dirty unwashed!
What reasons do you have for making that link? What are you refering to?
It's possible to load some code and snapshot as a Smalltalk image; then load some different code and snapshot as a different Smalltalk image.
It's a different story when you're working on a team, and a different story when there are two or more teams using the same repository. Sure, you still have the image. The debate had to do with how the Smalltalk image affected the community's relationship to the rest of the world of software ecosystems, and how the image affected software architecture in the small. That "geography" tended to produce an insular Smalltalk community and tightly bound architecture within individual projects.
> … relationship to the rest … insular Smalltalk community…
Perhaps not the image per se, so much as the ability to change anything and everything.
Every developer could play god; and they did.
Turns out that not every god is as wise and as benevolent as every other god.
There were awesome people who did awesome stuff; and there were others — unprepared to be ordinary.
People at least played around with that as a research project. There's one that showed up at the Camp Smalltalks I went to, with a weird-but-sensible sounding name. (Weird enough I can't remember the name.)
There would have been great utility in such a thing. For one thing, the debugger in Smalltalk is just another Smalltalk application. So what happens when you want to debug the debugger? Make a copy of the debugger's code and modify the debugger hooks so that when debugging the debugger, it's the debugger-copy that's debugging the debugger. With multi-image Smalltalk, you could just have one Smalltalk image run the debugger-copy without doing a bunch of copy/renaming. (Which, I just remembered, you can make mistakes at, with hilarious results.)
If you do the hacky shortcut of implementing one Smalltalk inside another Smalltalk (Call this St2), then the subset of objects that are the St2 objects can act a bit like a separate image. In that case, the host Smalltalk debugger can debug the St2 debugger.
Otherwise — [pdf] "Distributed Smalltalk"
Otherwise (for source code control) — "Mastering ENVY/Developer"
What I'm talking about is loading up multiple images into the same IDE and run them like fully separate images with maybe some plumbing for communication and code loading between them. You can sorta pull that stunt by, as stcredzero mentioned, running Smalltalk in Smalltalk, ut I want separate images.
At the same time? Why? What will that let you do?
Meaning on a single machine. Not across networks.
> run a network of VMs with different code
What do you think prevents that being done with "fully separate images" (VMs in their own OS process) ?
In this example on Ubuntu "visual" is the name of the VM file, and there are 2 different image files with different code in them "visualnc64.im" and "quad.im".
$ /opt/src/vw8.3pul/bin/visual /opt/src/vw8.3pul/image/visualnc64.im &
$ /opt/src/vw8.3pul/bin/visual /opt/src/vw8.3pul/image/quad.im &
Do you see?
Both of those instances of the Smalltalk VM, the one in OS process 8689 and the one in OS process 8690, are headfull — they both include the full Smalltalk IDE, they are both fully capable of editing and debugging code.
(There's a very visible difference between the 2 Smalltalk IDEs that opened on my desktop: visualnc64.im is as-supplied by the vendor; quad.im has an additional binding for the X FreeType interface library, so the text looks quite different).
(iirc Back-in-the-day when I had opened multiple Smalltalk images I'd set the UI Look&Feel of one to MS Windows, of another to Mac, of another to Unix: so I could see which windows belonged to which image.)
No, that would not be enough to make anything work. What I can think of is an IDE that had access to all the VMs running and some plumbing for the VMs to communicate. I would love to be able to spin-up Smalltalk VMs so I can simulate a full system on my desk. Having separate IDEs running means I don't have any integration so I have to debug in multiple different IDEs when tracing communications. I can imagine some of the debugging and code inspection that could be extended to look at code running simultaneously in multiple VMs.
"Open a debugger where you can trace the full stack on all involved machines."
"Inspect objects in the debugger or open inspectors on any of the objects, regardless of the system they are running on."
April 1995 Hewlett Packard Journal, Figure 7 page 90
Not Technically, as they increase complexity.
But they enable something really powerful: continuity of means, continuity of responsibility, that way a small team has full hand of developing AND operating a piece of a solution.
Basically, organization tends to be quite efficient when dealing with small teams (about dozen people, pizza rule and everything), that way information flows easily, with point to point communication without the need of a coordinator.
However, with such architecture, greater emphasis should be put on interfaces (aka APIs). A detailed contract must be written (or even set as a policy):
* how long the API while remain stable?
* how will it be deprecated? with a Vn and Vn-1 scheme?
* how is it documented?
* what are the limitations? (performance, call rates, etc)?
If you don't believe me, just read "Military-Standard-498". We can say anything about military standards, but military organizations, as people specifying, ordering and operating complex systems for decades, they know a thing or two about managing complex systems. And interfaces have a good place in their documentation corpus with the IRS (Interface Requirements Specification) and IDD (Interface Design Description) documents. Keep in mind this MIL-STD is from 1994.
From what I recall, it's very waterfall minded in term of specification workflow, it's also quite document heavy, and the terminology and acronyms can take a while to get used to.
I found it was a bit lacking regarding how to put together all the pieces into a big system, aka the Integration step. IMHO It's a bit too software oriented, lacking on the system side of thing (http://www.abelia.com/498pdf/498GBOT.PDF page 60).
While I do feel like one team should hold ownership of a service, they should also be working on others and be open to contributions - like the open source model.
Finally, going from a monolith to 10 services sounds like a bad. I'd get some metrics first, see what component of the monolith would benefit the most (in the overall application performance) from being extracted and (for example) rewritten in a more specialized language.
If you can't prove with numbers that you need to migrate to a microservices architecture (or: split up your application), then don't do it. If it's not about performance, you've got an organizational problem, and trying to solve it with a technical solution is not fixing the problem, only adding more.
I guess that's where the critical challenge lies. You'd better be damn sure you know your business domain better than the business itself! So you can lay down the right boundaries, contracts & responsibilities for your services.
Once your service boundaries are laid down, they're very hard to change
It takes just one cross-cutting requirement change to tank your architecture and turn it into a distributed ball of mud!
Something so inflexible can't survive contact with reality (for very long).
At work we run 20-something microservices with a team of 14 engineers, and there's no siloing. If we need to add a feature that touches three services then the devs just touch the three services and orchestrate the deployments correctly. Devs wander between services depending on the needs of the project/product, not based on an arbitrary division.
If you are doing http/json between microservices then you are definitely holding it wrong.
Do yourself a favor and use protobuf/grpc. It exists specifically for this purpose, specifically because what you're doing is bad for your own health.
Or Avro, or Thrift, or whatever. Same thing. Since Google took forever to open source grpc, every time their engineers left to modernize some other tech company, Facebook or Twitter or whatever, they'd reimplement proto/stubby at their new gig. Because it's literally the only way to solve this problem.
So use whatever incarnation you like.. you have options. But json/http isn't one of them. The problem goes way deeper than serialization efficiency.
(edit: d'oh! Replied to the wrong comment. Aw well, the advice is still sound.)
I once worked at a company where a team of 3 produced way more than 25 microservices. But the trick was, they were all running off the same binary, just with slightly different configurations. Doing it that way gave the ops team the ability to isolate different business processes that relied on that functionality, in order to limit the scale of outages. Canary releases, too.
It's 3 developers in charge of 25 different services all talking to each other over REST that sounds awful to me. What's that even getting you? Maybe if you're the kind of person who thinks that double-checking HTTP status codes and validating JSON is actually fun...
I worked on an e-commerce site a decade ago where the process types were:
1. Customer-facing web app
2. CMS for merchandising staff
3. Scheduled jobs worker
4. Feed handler for inventory updates
5. Distributed lock manager
6. Distributed cache manager
We had two binary artifacts - one for the CMS, one for everything else - and they were all built from a single codebase. The CMS was different because we compiled in masses of third-party framework code for the CMS.
Each process type ran with different config which enabled and configured the relevant subsystems on as needed. I'm not sure to what extent we even really needed to do that: the scheduled jobs and inventory feed workers could safely have run the customer app as well, as long as the front-end proxies never routed traffic to them.
What isn't trivial is when someone decides to make an Order microservice and an Account microservice when there's a business rule where both accounts and orders can only co-exist. Good fucking luck with 3 developers, I'm pretty sure with a team of 3 in charge of 23 other microservices you aren't exhaustively testing inter-microservice race conditions.
The apps all handle a bespoke data connection, converting it into a standard model which they submit to our message broker. From then on our services are much larger and smaller in number. It's very write-once-run-forever, some of these have not been touched since their inception years ago, resulting in a decreased complexity and maintenance cost.
The trick is not having REST calls all over yours services. You're just building a distributed monolith at that point.
I've been daydreaming about monoliths and will be asking at interviews for my next job hoping to find more simplified systems. I came from the game industry originally, where you only have one project for the game and one more for the webservice if it had one, and maybe a few others for tools that help support the game.
And 3 companies with micro service infrastructures that had lousy products and little business success.
Can’t totally blame microservices but I recall a distinctly slower and more complicated dev cycle.
These were mostly newer companies where micro services make even less sense and improving product and gaining users is king.
Microservices is a deployment choice. It's the choice to talk between the isolated parts with RPC's instead of local function calls.
So are there no reasons to have multiple services? No there are reasons, but since it's about deployments, the reasons are related to deployment factors. E.g. if you have a subsystem that needs to run in a different environment, or a subsystem that has different performance/scalability requirements etc.
Even if you're working on an early prototype which fits into a handful of source files, it can be useful to organize your application in terms of parallel, independent pieces long before it becomes necessary to enforce that separation on an infrastructure/dev-ops level.
The main thing, however, is many people think that, by breaking up their monolith into services, that they now have microservices. No, you don't. You have a distributed monolith.
Can you deploy services independently? No? You don't have microservices. Can you change one microservice data storage and deploy it just fine? If you are changing a table schema and you now have to deploy multiple services, they are not microservices.
So, you take a monolith, break it up, add a message broker, centralized logging, maybe deploy them on K8s, and then you achieve... nothing at all. At least, nothing that will help the business. Just more complexity and a lot more stuff that need to be managed and can go wrong.
And probably a much bigger footprint. Every stupid hello world app now wants 8GB of memory and its own DB for itself. So you added costs too. And accomplished nothing a CI/CD pipeline plus sane development and deployment practices wouldn't have achieved.
It is also sometimes used in lieu of team collaboration. Now everyone can code their own thing in their own language without talking to anyone else. Except collaboration is still needed, so you are accruing tech debt that you know nothing about. You can break interfaces and assumptions, where your monolith wouldn't even compile. And now no-one understands how the system works anymore.
Now, if you are designing a system using microservices properly, then it can be a dream to work on, and manage in production. But that requires good teamwork on each team and good collaboration between teams. You also need a different mindset.
There will be times when you trade data consistency for performance/scalability, i.e. in a scenario where you are breaking user actions away from the main user service, if a user is deleted but deleting from user actions failed, you don't roll back the user delete. Either just let the invalid data sit in user actions database, or do separate clean-ups periodically.
There appear to be exactly two reasons to use microservices:
1. Your company needs APIs to define responsibility over specific functionality. Usually happens when teams get big.
2. You have a set of functions that need specific hardware to scale. GPUs, huge memory, high performance local disk, etc. It might not make sense to scale as a monolith then.
One thing you sure don't get is performance. You're going to take an in-process shared-memory function call and turn it into a serialized network call and it'll be _faster_? That's crazy talk.
So why are we doing it?
1. Because we follow the lead of large tech companies because they have great engineers, but unfortunately they have very different problems then we do.
2. The average number of years of experience in the industry is pretty low. I've seen two of these kinds of cycles now and we just keep making the same mistakes over and over.
Anyway, I'm not sure who I'm writing this comment for, I guess myself! And please don't take this as criticism, I've made these exact mistakes before too. I just wish we as an industry had a deeper understanding of what's been done before and why it didn't work.
Imagine if we built single-family houses based on what made sense for skyscrapers. Or if we built subcompact cars based on a shrunk-down version of semi-tractor trailers. They would not be efficient, or even effective.
But, if your aspiration is to get a job at a skyscraper-builder, then it MIGHT be what makes sense to do. "Have you used appropriate-only-for-largest-websites technology X?" "Why yes I have." The same incentives probably apply to the tech management, btw. We have an incentives problem.
Reasons for current situation are plenty. World and ppl are complicated.
More likely young devs with naivety and thus motivation.
LOL :D You mean cheap devs who will work for half the price and will never raise their concerns and will gladly accept the stupidest and most menial tasks.
You can optimise per use case. In the monolith everything has to work for every use case. In a service you might not care to write, you might not care if your writes are super async. This means you can start to take liberties with the back-end (e.g. denormalising where necessary) and you have room to breathe.
ALB pricing is a little strange thanks to the $5.76/mo/LCU cost and the differentiation between new connections and active connections. The days are LONG GONE when AWS just charged you for "how much you use", and many of their new products (Dynamo, Aurora Serverless, ALB) are moving toward a crazy "compute unit" architecture five abstraction layers behind units that make sense.
But it should be cheaper; back of the napkin math, 225M req/month is about 100RPS averaged, which can be met with maybe 5 LCUs on an ALB. So total cost would be somewhere in the ballpark of $60/month, plus the cost of lambda which would probably be around $100/month.
Is it cheaper than a VPS? Hell no. Serverless never is. But is it worth it? Depends on your business.
The ALB point is very strong. APIGW can add lots of value with request response manipulation and the headaches of managing your own VPS, but you need to make sure that you don't just need a bare bones path -> lambda mapping, which is where the ALB can shine.
Everyone has to communicate through the API gateway. Then, you get a single point where things are easily auditable.
It has a lot of benefits that apply to business use cases. Your free API may not have as strict requirements.
You can easily deploy Kong/Tyk these days for peanuts and have your own single point of entry, without AWS API Gateway’s insane pricing.
It's difficult to fight this.
Somebody new to Erlang can get a feel of what Systems Architecture in Erlang really means from a great article by Fred Hebert:
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Unexpected"
It seems like a near perfect fit for the web.
There is a lot of fancy theory to underpin this equivalence, the essence is that all of them revolve around (side effect free) transformation.
The nodes are fine and easy, but the orchestration / flow implementation is getting me stuck for > 1 month... :(
For example I have a service that hosts / streams videos. I have 1 service that handles all the metadata of the video. Handle users, discussions etc... one could even think of this as a monolith. Then video encoding piece started interfering with the metadata stuff so I decided it might be smart to separate the video encoding into its own service since it had different scaling requirements from the metadata server.
In that specific case it made a lot of sense to have 2 services I can justify it with the following reasons.
- Resource isolation is important to the performance of the application.
- having the ability to scale the encoder workers out horizontally makes sense.
So now it makes sense I’m managing 2 services.
There should be a lot of thought and reasoning behind doing engineering work. I think following trends is great for fashion products like jeans / shirts etc... but not for engineering.
If you are starting a project doing microservices chances are you are optimizing prematurely. That’s just my 2cent.
I feel like any article I see on microservices bemoans how terrible/unnecessary they are. If anything, we're in the monolith phase of the hype cycle =)
If you're moving to microservices primarily because you want serving path performance and reliability, you're doing it wrong. The reasons for microservices are organizational politics (and, if you're an individual or small company, you shouldn't have much politics), ease of builds, ease of deployments, and CI/CD.
A couple of independent vertically integrated microservices (or simply: services, screw fashion) is all most companies and applications will ever need, the few that expand beyond that will likely need more architectural work before they can be safely deployed at scale.
So that's an additional reason for microservice frameworks: a welfare safety net for software engineers.
Scalability -- for when your processes no longer fit on a single node, and you need to split into multiple services handling a subset of the load. This is rare, given that vendors will happily sell you a server with double-digit terabytes of ram.
Crash isolation -- for when you have some components with very complex failure recovery, where "just die and recover from a clean slate" is a good error handling policy. This approach can make debugging easy, and may make sense in a distributed system where you need to handle nodes going away at any time anyways, but it's not a decision to take lightly, especially since there will be constant pressure to "just handle that error, and don't exit in this case", which kills a lot of the simplicity that you gain.
Both are relatively rare.
I bet you still have a commit bit.
What once was just a function call now becomes an API call. And now you need to manage multiple CI/CD builds and scripts.
It adds a tremendous amount of overhead and there is less time spent delivering core value.
Serverless architectures and app platforms seems to correct a lot of this overhead and frustration while still providing most of the benefits of microservices.
If that's not possible, I'd take that as a sign that we need new languages and tools.
If I change the type on a struct that i'm marshaling and unmarshaling between services, I can break my whole pipeline if I forget to update the type on each microservice. This feels like something that should be easy to catch with a compiler.
Specifically relevant to the discussion is this passage:
> However, if an application reaches a certain scale or the team building it reaches a certain scale, it will eventually outgrow monolithic architecture. This occurred at Shopify in 2016 and was evident by the constantly increasing challenge of building and testing new features. Specifically, a couple of things served as tripwires for us.
> The application was extremely fragile with new code having unexpected repercussions. Making a seemingly innocuous change could trigger a cascade of unrelated test failures. For example, if the code that calculates our shipping rate called into the code that calculates tax rates, then making changes to how we calculate tax rates could affect the outcome of shipping rate calculations, but it might not be obvious why. This was a result of high coupling and a lack of boundaries, which also resulted in tests that were difficult to write, and very slow to run on CI.
> Developing in Shopify required a lot of context to make seemingly simple changes. When new Shopifolk onboarded and got to know the codebase, the amount of information they needed to take in before becoming effective was massive. For example, a new developer who joined the shipping team should only need to understand the implementation of the shipping business logic before they can start building. However, the reality was that they would also need to understand how orders are created, how we process payments, and much more since everything was so intertwined. That’s too much knowledge for an individual to have to hold in their head just to ship their first feature. Complex monolithic applications result in steep learning curves.
> All of the issues we experienced were a direct result of a lack of boundaries between distinct functionality in our code. It was clear that we needed to decrease the coupling between different domains, but the question was how
I've tried a new approach at hackathons where I build a Rails monolith that calls serverless cloud functions. So collaborators can write cloud functions in their language of choice to implement functionality and the Rails monolith integrates their code into the main app. I wonder how this approach would fare for a medium sized codebase.
Instead of an app directory you put all your code into gems and engines.
Shopify has taken the approach of siloing their monolith into smaller rails apps which is a similar approach to refactoring into rails engines.
The microservice architecture seems to mainly function as a way
to impose discipline on programmers who lack self-discipline.
Microservices won't change any of those variables. Nor will it change the normal distribution of them. So one thing is for sure. No matter what the architecture of paradigm is being used, we can on average expect average quality software. Most people on average don't gush about how amazingly clean their architecture is or how well defined their bounded contexts are. They tend to talk about spaghetti. I infer from that that on average it's spaghetti and theres a chance it might not be.
This is the key lesson to learn: if you are struggling to have clear separation of responsibilities, you are going to have a bad time with either approach. To the extent that a replacement system ends up being better it's probably due to having been more conscious about that issue.
I'm not saying microservices are better, but people should really take more serious considerations between the boundaries between subsystems. Because it's so easy to create exceptions, and things end up infinitely more complex in the grand scheme of things.
Clear, well-defined boundaries matter. It's the only way a developer can focus on a small part of a problem, and become an expert at working on that subsystem without needing greater context.
Me: I've only worked on HUGE systems (government stuff and per-second, multi-currency, multi-region telephone billing) and on systems for employees with less than 100 people.
My take: Monolith or two systems if at all possible.
This is good: A Rails app that burps out HTML and some light JS.
This is also good: A Rails app that burps out JSON and an Ember app to sop it up and convert it to something useable. Maybe Ember Fastboot, if performance warrants the additional complexity.
This is hellish: Fifteen different services half of which talk to the same set of databases. Most of which are logging inconsistently, and none of which have baked in UUIDs into headers or anything else that could help trace problems through the app.
This is also hellish: A giant fucking mono-repo with so many lines of code nobody can even build the thing locally anymore. You need to write your own version control software just to wrestle with the beast. You spend literally days to remove one inadvertently placed comma.
Sometimes you have to go to hell though. Which way depends on the problem and the team.
 Kinda sorta, maybe the iOS app is in something else. Oh and there's also the "open source" work, like protobuffs that "works" but has unreleased patches that actually fix the problems at scale, but are "too complicated" to work into the open source project.
Surely if you're building microservices, this line of thinking would be a failure to stick to the design? If your failures aren't isolated and your APIs aren't well-made, you're just building a monolith with request glue instead of code glue.
I appreciate the point is more that this methodology is difficult to follow through on, but integration tests are a holdover - you can test at endpoints: you should be testing at endpoints! That's the benefit.
That’s pretty much every single microservice architecture I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot of them :(
Many monolithic apps would benefit from a refactoring towards that rather than distributing a call stack across the network. The microservices can come later on if there's a need for it. If nothing else, it'll present a clearer picture of how things fit together when you start enforcing boundaries.
I would love a resurgence of discussions about services and how to best build and govern those without always resulting in a focus on the micro versions.
How are people building a modern IT landscape consisting of different services and system?
You can't avoid the centralisation unless you want infinite repetition.
The human spine is composed of multiple vertebrae and forms a consistent network with the brain and CNS and the rest of your body. The spine itself is the centralism, no matter how much you separate the bones into vertebra.
A service bus is basically putting all of your eggs into one wire. Or so it seems... it's so easy to strawman yourself to microservices.
Of those Netflix is famous for its complex distributed architecture and employs 100s (if not 1000s?) of the very best engineers in the world (at $400k+/year compensation). I haven't heard about ground-breaking architecture from the others and don't imagine they spend 10s of millions of $ every year on the software like Netflix does.
I'm not really seeing any difference in uptime or performance. In fact, if I want to stream a new movie, I will use Viaplay (I can rent new stuff there for $5), or the library streaming service (which has more interesting arthouse stuff).
So why is Netflix in any way a software success story, if competitors can do the same thing for 1/100th the cost?
The little variety of content is a great advantage, it takes little storage and it's very cache friendly.
It's countless orders of magnitude below user generated content like youtube/dailymotion/vimeo. It shouldn't be much different than video archives from TV or large studios.
If we were to go `extreme` in regards to your comparison: why does Facebook need such a large infrastructure for messaging, if my monolithic Homebrew family-only messaging application has just as much uptime and performance, for 20$ a month?
Netflix has to be a bit more efficient on the tech, because they have lower revenues and they don't own the pipes.
Besides that, the war is about content rights, not distribution. Netflix can maintain an image to be the cool kid in town, unlike older companies that don't care about that.
Consider the following API:
I have implemented this technique in teleport:
Integration test suite is run against RPC version and local version at the same time to make sure the contract remains the same:
A single teleport binary can be deployed on one server with all microservices, or multiple cluster scenarios.
where the binary is simply instantiated with different roles:
In addition to that Golang's context
is used to broadcast the failure of a distributed operation and release associated resources with it
Ultimately there are principles at play behind whether a service should have separate infrastructure than another service. If those principles aren't being critically applied then any decision will be a rough one to live with.
> So long for understanding our systems
You can't "do" microservices by just having some servers that talk to each other. You have to rebuild the tools that come naturally from monoliths. Can you get a complete set of logs from one logical request? Can you account for the time spent inside each service (and its dependants)? Can you run all your tests at every commit? Can you run a local copy of the production system? With monoliths, those come naturally and for free. log.Printf() prints to the same stderr for every action in the request. You can account for all the time spent inside each service because you only have one service. All your tests run at every commit because you only have one application. You can run locally because it's one program that you just run (and presumably your server is just a container like "FROM python; RUN myapp.py").
When you carelessly switch to microservices, you throw that all away. You can't skip the steps of bringing back infrastructure that you used to have for free. Your logs have to go through something like ELK. You need distributed tracing with Zipkin or Jaeger. You need an intelligent build system like Bazel. You will probably have to write some code to make local development enjoyable. And, new concerns (load balancing, configuration management, service discovery) come up, and you can't just ignore them.
Having said that, I don't think you can ever really get away from needing the tools that facilitate microservices. Even the simplest application from the "LAMP" days was split among multiple components often running on different machines. That hasn't changed. And it's likely that you talk to many services over the course of any given request -- you just didn't write them. "Microservices" is just where you write some of those services instead of downloading them off the Internet or paying a subscription fee for them.
Organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations.
— M. Conway
Microservices probably make sense for large companies which are essentially a lot of small actors who build up a big system. Medium and small organizations should probably stay away.
Or another way to think about it, choose a microservices architecture if you want to employ a lot of devs.
Contrast this to J2EE that I would only use reluctantly if a customer wanted to go that way.
If a service can't assume local state, it creates unnecessary design overhead. For example, you cannot achieve exactly-once semantics between two services without local-state. If you replace local-state with message-queues, you just turned 1-network-1-disk op into 5-network-3-disk op and introduced loads of other problems.
If you (or someone) could tell me number of network-hops and Disk-IOs involved in performing an RPC using Kafka streams, I will definitely take a look at them.
Microservices are trading one sort of complexity (the ball of mud) for another (configuration). I've found that the win for microservices is largely about developer efficiency, not code performance or whatever. Keep the developers from constantly tripping over each other in large systems.
Do you (as in your entire company/maybe eng department) have less than 100k LOC? If yes, you should stay in a monolith (except for potentially breaking out very specific performance/storage use cases).
Do you have more than 100k LOC? You should start breaking things up so that a) teams can own their destiny and b) you can have a technology evolution story that is not "now we have a single 1 million LOC codebase and we can never rewrite it".
Evolving ~10-20 different ~20-50k LOC codebases is doable because of the enforced wire-call API boundaries; evolving 500k-2M LOC monoliths is not, unless maybe you're Google/Facebook and have their tooling and workforce.
Granted, 20-50k LOC per codebase is probably not "micro".
Probably not for everyone (i.e. polyglot is hardly possible and it takes a lot of discipline to avoid a hairy ball of interdependencies), but it scales in ops complexity from very small setups to large ones, when needed.
Good things about Micro services.
* It allows for distributed teams, backend, frontend teams and to have a common interface json calls to communicate between the services.
* You can replace a micro service with another micro service
* It may be a good fit for startups that needs to rapidly prototype. That it is good for fast moving startups does not mean it is good for traditional enterprises.
We are likely beyond peak hype on the hype cycle for micro services.
At work we are transforming also, so I'm in the process of setting up a personal environment for it.
I'm also joining a Hackerspace and pitching for it next week ( hands-on learning).
About the architecture, not much made "sense" in practice untill I encountered Akka, which uses the Actor model for creating microservices.
It's seems like a much better approach then everything I learned elsewhere.
Does anyone already have experience with it? ( Ps. Akka.net exist also)
Look, we live in a era where the fastest time to market is always going to be the way to go. Microservices are nice but they slow development down a great deal.
What we need is an easier, less subjective way to build software. I think DataFlow programming will become more popular since it is easy, scales well, and applicable to more domains than many would think.
A monolithic dataflow application has many of the advantages of micro-services and monoliths alike.
I also think the industry should probably start to shy away from OOP (especially since industry totally dumped OOD). If you go on github and find a random C program, then do the same for a random C++ program - I would bet you can wrap you head around the C far before you can even begin to understand the C++. How people can revolt against microservices and yet not question the same phenomena with respect to basic SP vs OOP is again baffling to me.
I think microservice adoption is a heavy-handed approach to modularization. I very much like Jackson Strucutred Programming, Dataflow Programming etc. Dataflow is actually applicable to many more domains than some think and are about as understandable and scales about as well, if not better than microservices.
An RPC call just becomes a function call - later you can split a logical service into an actual external service should the need arise. It also makes identifying which services talk to one another as easy as using git grep...
I think one of the emerging principles behind modern micro-service design is to break out your data model into separate services that hide the database. You can then publish data changes to an event stream. This can help avoid requests coming back to a database. I think this is a better approach compared to heavy caching (e.g. redis / memcache).
I definitely agree that micro-services aren't a silver bullet that solve every engineering problem that exists but the hyperbole of 150 micro-services is a straw man argument.
My main annoyances with Kubernetes/docker systems I have encountered is stability of the cluster and visibility into the health of pods. Both of these issues were the result of my org deciding to build our own Kubernetes from scratch and this has turned out to be a significant task.
If I was starting my own company and wanted to develop using micro-services I would probably use one of the existing off-the-shelf container cloud service providers (e.g. Amazon/Google/Microsoft). I think that is a better approach than "build a monolith then lift-and-shift into micro-services later".
Microservices require quite a bit of dev setup to get it right but often it comes down to be able to run a service locally against a dev environment, that has all those 150 other microservicea already running.
Queues are setup to be able to route them to your local workstation, local ui should have ability to proxy to ui running in dev (so that you don’t run entire amazon.com or such locally), deployments to dev have to be all automated and largely lights out, and so on.... it takes a bit of time to get these dev things right, but it doesn’t require running entire environment locally just to write a few lines of code.
Debugging and logging/tracing are an issue - but these days there are some pretty good solutions to that too - Splunk works quite well, and saves a lot of time tracking issues down.
Microservices were originated by developers who were fed up with maintaining monoliths, and in the future the next generation of developers who grow up maintaining microservices will become fed up with them and move towards something more monolithic (they’ll probably have another term for it by then).
Visually the software we provide can be conceptually broken apart into three major sections, and share the same utility code (stuff like command line parsing, networking, environment stuff, data structures).
Certain sections are very deep technically, others are lightweight modules that serve as APIs to more complex code. Every 'service' can be imported by another 'service' because it's all just a Python module. Also, a lot of our 'services' are user facing, but perform a specialized task in an "assembly line" way. A user may run process A, which is a pre-requisite to process B, but may pass off the execution of process B to a co-worker.
Is this a microservice or a monolith?
A monolith does not have any such restrictions, data structures are shared and a hit on one endpoint can easily end up calling functions all over the codebase.
On the other hand, the king of the hill of VCS these days, git on GitHub, does not make it easy to have this kind of setup:
- it is not possible (as far as I know) to checkout a subdir of a git repository hosted on GitHub), which is annoying for deployment
- it becomes difficult to only follow the PRs your team is interested in, since you can't tell GitHub to only notify you of changes in the subdirs you are interested in.
What are your experiences on this? when you split a monolith into microservices, do you also split the VCS repository into as many repositories?
"It makes programming so easy that anyone could do it because it's basically like writing English!"
And we have a little script that fires up a testable instance of the whole shebang, from scratch, and can even tear everything down afterwards. And, through the magic of config files and AF_UNIX, you can run more than one copy of this script from the same source tree at the same time!
(This means we can use protobuf without worrying about proper backwards/forwards compat. It’s delightful.)
It was a Rails monolith; one of the larger ones in the world to the best of our knowledge. We (long story greatly shortened) split it up into about ten separate Rails applications. Each had their own test suite, dependencies, etc.
However, they lived in a common monorepo and were deployed as a single monolith.
This retained some of the downsides of a Rails monolith -- for example each instance of the app was fat and consumed a lot of memory. However, the upside was that the pseudo-monolith had fairly clear internal boundaries and multiple dev teams could more easily work in parallel without stepping on eachothers' toes.
All other services are stateless. I just shoot the thing and redeploy, and it only costs me an acceptable few seconds of downtime.
One thing I enforce however is to have a clean separation of layers and concepts within that monolith (modules and package names) so that if the team grows and the need arises to break up into separate chunks most of the work is already done and the boundaries are already defined.
I try to stick with one repo for as long as possible. This makes things much easier for new developers to onboard and to coordinate or rollback changes.
Of course the author's point of view is totally valid, and so the microservices trend is also valid, and so are solutions in-between. One size won't fit everyone and as with anything going blindly for any solution can cause trouble.
IMHO, I'd bet you would never hear a construction contractor say "give me back my hammer".
Yet I never see anyone talking about how we could combine the two to get the best of both worlds. It's always just microservices vs monoliths. (Similar things are happening in the frontend community with JS vs. no-JS debates.)
One would be rightfully considered batty for trying to do /everything/ recursively for the sake of it while dogmatically avoiding recursion by creating massively multi-dimensional arrays would also be considered insane.
(Ironically I must disagree with client-side JS as something to be avoided whenever possible but that is over concrete concerns of trust, bloat, and abuse where 'but we can't do that then' is greeted with 'mission accomplished'. If it is locked away server-side I particularly don't care if you use assembly code or a lolcat based language.)
Having worked on many examples of both Fortune 500 monoliths and start-up scale monoliths, I feel confident saying monoliths just fail, hands down, at all these scales.
Monoliths only fail when architects don't have a clue about modular development and writing libraries.
Same architects will just design distributed spaghetti code, with increased complexity and maintenance costs.
They just have to learn how to actually use and create libraries on their language of choice.
Each microservice is a plain dll/so/lib/jar/... maintained by a separate team.
No access to code from other teams, other than the produced library.
It isn't that hard to achieve.
The challenge is that in reality you will always need distinct build tooling, distinct CI logic, distinct deployment tooling, distinct runtime environments & resources, etc., for almost all distinct services, as well as super easy support to add new services that rely on previously never used resources / languages / runtimes / whatever. This need happens whether you choose a monolith approach or microservice approach, but only the microservice approach can efficiently cope with it.
The monorepo/monolith approach can go one of two ways, both entirely untenable in average case scenarios: (a) extreme dictatorship mandates to enforce all the same tooling, languages and runtime possibilities for all services, or (b) an inordinate amount of tooling and overhead and huge support staff to facilitate flexibility in the monorepo / monolith services.
(a) fails immediately because you can’t innovate and end up with some horrible legacy system that can’t update to modern tooling or accomodate experimental, isolated new services to discover how to shift to new tooling or new capabilities. This does not happen with microservices, not even when they are implemented poorly.
(b) only works if you’re prepared to throw huge resources and headcount at the problem, which usually fails in most big orgs like banks, telcos, etc., and had only succeeded in super rare outlier cases like Google in the wild.
So I think I do have some experience regarding distributed computing.
And the best lesson is that I don't want to debug a problem in production in such systems full of spaghetti network calls, with possible network splits, network outage,...
With microservices I need one debugger instance per microservice taking part on the request chain, or the vain hope that the developers actually remembered to log information that actually matters.
In the monolith case, your debugger is likely to step into very low-level procedures defined far away in the source code, with no surrounding context to understand why or to know if sections of code can be categorically removed from the debugging because, as separated sub-components, they could be logically ruled out.
Instead you’ll have to set a watch point or something, run the whole system incredibly verbosely, trip the condition and then set a new watch point accordingly. Essentially doing serially what you could do in log(n) time with a moderately well-decoupled set of microservices.
You’d also have the added benefit that for sub-components you can logically rule out, you can mock them out in your debugging and inject specific test cases, skip slow-running processes, whatever, with the only mock system needed being a simple mock of an http/whatever request library. One simplistic type of mock works for all service boundaries.
To do the same in a monolith, you now have to write custom mocking components and custom logic to apply the mocks at the right places, coming close to doubling the amount of test / debugging tooling you need to write and maintain to achieve the same effect you can literally get for free with microservices (see e.g. requests-mock in Python).
And all this has nothing to do with whether the monolith is well-written or spaghetti code compared to the microservice implementation.
Monolithic design is fine for simple systems, but as complexity and scale increase, so do the associated costs.
I’m currently using DDD, micro services, and public cloud because complex system are better served.
"ivory tower" to me means academic, theoretical, "interesting", "pure", vs on the other end of pragmatic, practical, get-it-done, whatever-works, maybe messy. (either end of the spectrum has plusses and minuses).
"DDD, event storming, event driven architectures" don't sound... not "ivory tower" to me. :) Then again, I am a U.S. developer!
It might very well be _useful_, it may be something many more people oughta be doing if only they knew how valuable it was. Could be! But it certainly does not seem basic or simple to me. It seems, well, "ivory tower". And something with a learning curve. Not "basic" at all. (And certainly neither do microservices).
Do y'all in Europe learn "domain-driven design, event storming, serverless, and event driven architectures" in school or something? (I don't even totally know what all those things mean, enough to explain it to someone else).
Some SMB's don't know anything, but the developers take "pride" in their work i think.
Ugly source-codes are everywhere though.
Product-oriented vs process-oriented maybe.
When I look up "ivory tower" on google, google's supplied dictionary definition is "a state of privileged seclusion or separation from the facts and practicalities of the real world." I don't think that's how you're using it though? Which confused me. But ok!
Most systems are "simple". Or mostly simple.
What's the saying? It should be as simpler as possible (but no simpler).
think that is all we really need. some kind of API-first platform that lets you run any server-side code coupled with a nice abstracted database layer, and an admin interface to go along with.
no one has it right yet though. but i think we'll be there soon.
For us it was a subset of "Production-Ready Microservices" by Susan Fowler. (It was so comprehensive we didn't need all of the things the book suggests you implement).
Slides - https://github.com/7mind/slides/raw/master/02-roles/target/r...
Issues like frequent releases, downtimes and breaking changes etc can be solved by writing tests, testable code, refactoring and keeping the code clean.
I honestly think the problem is devs not taking the time to become comfortable with tools
I will be splitting off pieces of my monolith soon, but docker-compose is a very reasonable compromise for running stuff, and the pieces I'm splitting off are for aggregation and background computation, so not really micro-services at all.
I wrote about one approach to doing this in the world of PHP using Laravel (Lumen)
No you dont need docker. My recent .net core project had 3 projects (FE - API - Dashboard). Each one was deployed with CI to their respective server but deployment, qa etc was done all outside of a docker env because there was nothing the env can alter.
We knew we develop in windows 10 and deploy/qa in ubuntu xenial.
the CI was configured around that and then send the dlls to the server and restart apache after deployment.
The only thing that I can see for the need of docker is if you want to include your database inside also, but we opted-in for an on cloud db (azure) and each service had its own.
Once again we go to the discussion in which the problem is not the technique (microservices) but the over-engineering of such solutions.
You can have both ^^ (and every tradeoff whichever extreme you feel more comfortable veering towards).
Sums up frontend web development nowadays.
Frameworks like Serverless or AWS SAM allow you to create a backend where all functions reside in one repository but get deployed in a way that each of them scales independently.
Basically I am wary of having a package manager pull new stuff unless I pin the versions to what I personally looked at.
Depends on my investment in the company and what the company rewards me for, to be honest.
Most times I like to work in companies where I'd be rewarded for choosing the best solution for the company, regardless of job security. For instance, I've actively fought against language creep at a company because it would end up siloing developers.
But I'm not naive. If I worked at a company that rewarded me for complicated architectures, I'd deliver complicated architectures.
Microservices in a monorepo with a proper dev env and build pipelines is just as "simple" as a monolith. Simple in quotes because I have seen crazy, sprawling monoliths.
They tends to be used even if there are better options in specific cases.
Needless to say, it is a giant clusterfuck.
Why is that people believe they need a Microservice architecture in the first place? None of the benefits of Microservices are absent in a carefully designed monolith.
If we are not going to give up our frenetic rapid development practices then we just need tools that help us move fast while keeping code understandable. Maybe we just need higher level languages where the machine can just keep track of all the details from extremely high level specifications. Software is too hard for humans.
So I empathize. I do get the motivation behind microservices (or other flavors of distributed system—I tend to use the microservice term a little loosely). Too many people/teams working on the same deployable eventually becomes a bottleneck for collaboration, builds and tests can take a long time for even small changes, governance and domain-separation becomes harder, and so forth. You'll also grow to have different SLOs and tolerances for different parts of your system. For example, logins should almost never fail, but background workers might slow down or fail without major fallout. Plus different services may have completely different scale/resource requirements.
Really, the question is: When do microservices become important for you (if ever)? When is it justifiable to do it presumptively, anticipating future growth? We all need to make those bets as best we can.
That said, I strongly believe that tooling can lower the baseline cost of splitting systems into microservices. That was one of our main motivations for starting garden.io—bringing the cost, complexity and experience of developing distributed backends to that level, and hopefully improving on it. We miss being able to build, test and run our service with a single command. We miss how easy it was to navigate our code in our IDE—it was all in the same graph! Our IDE could actually reason about our whole application. You didn’t have to read a README for every damn service to figure out how to build it, test it and run it—hoping that the doc was up to date. You could actually run the thing locally in most cases, and not have minikube et al. turning your laptop into a space heater.
I don’t want to plug too much here (we’ll do the Show HN thing before long), but we’re working on something relevant to the discussion. We want to provide a simple, modular way to get from a bunch of git repos to a running system, and build on that to improve the developer experience for distributed systems. With Garden, each part of your stack describes itself, and the tooling compiles those declarations into a stack graph, which is a validated DAG of all your build, test, bootstrap and deployment steps.
The lack of this sort of structure is imo a huge part of the problem with developing distributed systems. Relationships that, in monoliths, are implicit in the code itself, instead become scattered across READMEs, bash scripts, various disconnected tools, convoluted CI pipelines—and worse—people’s heads. We already know the benefits of declarative infrastructure, IaaC etc. Now it’s just a question of applying those ideas to development workflows.
With a stack graph in hand, you can really start chipping away at the cost and frustration of developing microservices, and distributed systems in general. Garden, for example, leverages the graph to act as a sort of incremental compiler for your whole system. You get a single high-level interface, a single command to build, deploy and test (in particular integration test), and it gets easier to reason about your whole stack.
Anyway. Sorry again about the plug, but I hope you find it relevant, if only at an abstract level. Garden itself is still a young project, and we’re just starting to capture some of the future possibilities of it, but I figure this is as good an opportunity as any to talk about what we’re thinking .)
> I’d have the readme on Github, and often in an hour or maybe a few I’d be up and running when I started on a new project.
I can deploy all of my services with one command. It's trivial - and I can often just deploy the small bit that I want to.
I don't use K8s or anything like that. Just AWS Lambdas and SQS based event triggers.
One thing I found was that by defining what a "service" was upfront, I made life a lot easier. I don't have snowflakes - everything uses the same service abstraction, with only one or two small caveats.
I don't imagine a Junior developer would have a hard time with this - I'd just show them the service abstraction (it exists in code using AWS-CDK).
> This in contrast to my standard consolidated log, and lets not forget my interactive terminal/debugger for when I wanted to go step by step through the process.
It's true, distributed logging is inherently more complex. I haven't run into major issues with this myself. Correlation IDs go a really long way.
Due to serverless I can't just drop into a debugger though - that's annoying if you need to. But also, I've never needed to.
> But now to really test my service I have to bring up a complete working version of my application.
I have never seen this as necessary. You just mock out service dependencies like you would a DB or anything else. I don't see this as a meaningful regression tbh.
> That is probably a bit too much effort so we’re just going to test each piece in isolation, I’m sure our specs were good enough that APIs are clean and service failure is isolated and won’t impact others.
Honestly, enforcing failure isolation is trivial. Avoid synchronous communication like the plague. My services all communicate via async events - if a service fails the events just queue up. The interface is just a protobuf defined dataformat (which is, incidentally, one of the only pieces of shared code across the services).
Honestly, I didn't find the road to microservices particularly bumpy. I had to invest early on in ensuring I had deployment scripts and the ability to run local tests. That was about it.
I'm quite glad I started with microservices. I've been able to think about services in isolation, without ever worrying about accidental coupling or accidentally having shared state. Failure isolation and scale isolation are not small things that I'd be happy to throw away.
My project is very exploratory - things have evolved over time. Having boundaries has allowed me to isolate complexity and it's been extremely easy to rewrite small services as my requirements and vision change. I don't think this would have been easy in a monolith at all.
I think I'm likely going to combine two my microservices - I split up two areas early on, only to realize later that they're not truly isolated components. Merging microservices seems radically simpler than splitting them, so I'm unconcerned about this - I can put it off for a very long time and I still suspect it will be easy to merge. I intend to perform a rewrite of one of them before the merge anyways.
I've suffered quite a lot from distributed monolith setups. I'm not likely to jump into one again if I can help it.
A bit of the algorithm is described here:
More specifically Grapl defines a type of identity called a Session - this is an ID that is valid for a time, such as a PID on every major OS.
Sessions are tracked or otherwise guessed based on logs, such as process creation or termination logs. Because Grapl assumes that logs will be dropped or come out of order/ extremely delayed it makes the effort to "guess" at identities. It's been quite accurate in my experience but the algorithm has many areas for improvement - it's a bit naive right now.
Happy to answer more questions about it though.
Based on what you seem to be interested I'd like to recommend CloudMapper by Scott Piper.
I tried running cloudmapper but I think I would need to replace the backend with a graph database and scrap the UI parts. We've got hundreds of AWS accounts and I'm having trouble just getting it to process all the resources in one of them.
Glad I could help.
That's off the top of my head. These all come with tradeoffs of course, but to say they bring nothing to the table is absurd.
But wouldn't that mean that the services must have no code whatsoever in common? And in that case, why would they be part of a monolith in the first place?
It makes both development of services-based apps easier, and the feedback/debugging of those services. No more "which terminal window do I poke around in to find that error message" problem, for one.
What? Just throw everything in syslog/journal, then stream that to an aggregator like logstash. Now you can get all logs from one system with journalctl, and all logs for an environment from kibana.