There are 8 billion people on this planet. The people that think MacBook Pros suck are likely very often not the same people that use them. And, when they do overlap, it's likely due to technology lock-in (they use Final Cut or whatever) or thinking the other options suck even worse.
I have to second the other person recommending a Lenovo X1 Carbon. I had one for awhile and it was just about the perfect laptop. Surface Pro looks nice too.
I've been using macbooks full time for 3 years now and I hate them. They are bad hardware for a high price tag.
As a developer they are the perfect middle ground. OSX runs everything I usually run in Linux and I have all the paid for software I'd run on windows (Photoshop, Lightroom, etc).
Prior to switching to mac I just dual booted windows and linux depending on what I needed. Then sketch came out and it was only OSX and I had to make the decision on having a third setup.
Then I realized everything I was doing in my 2 OSes I could do in a single one even though I hated the hardware.
Can you define "bad hardware"? To my coworkers, this usually means they can't get the largest amount of RAM on the mac that they can get when they buy a $WINTEL.
On the flipside, their battery life always ends up worse and they go through twice as many machines in the same time frame, which is _much_ more annoying. A week of productivity loss a year isn't worth the cost savings.
The cost issue is always strange one for me. Most employers are happy to drop $2500 on a laptop. If you are purchasing it yourself, fine, but that's usually not the case for a work machine.
You ever tried to do photo manipulation, graphic design, or video editing in a virtualized OS? It is miserable. There is a reason I said I was dual booting and not running virtualization :)
I use GPU passthrough and run games in Windows under KVM with equal or slightly less (~3-5%) frames. Photo manipulation and graphic design work fine in Photoshop in my setup. Not so sure about video editing.
With OSX, I get to be lazy when it comes to the OS. No wrangling, configuring like I see friends having to do. The environment is mindless and works.
And they're pretty. Great screens and resolution. And everyone else had one when I started developing. And I was kind of excited to put a sticker on top of the apple.
Switching to linux is in the same category as Vim for me. Something I should do someday.
YMMV, but I configured i3, vim and some other stuff years ago and just copy configs from previous laptop to the next one. New laptop usually works just of the box and it is already configured the way I'm used to.
I think the people who don't like it are the loudest. It certainly has some drawbacks (like the keyboard, lack of ports), and for some that's a deal-breaker.
Personally, I love my MBP I got late last year — 13", no touchbar. I use the larger, touchbar version for work, and it doesn't really suit me.
The only things that really bother me are the keyboard and sometimes the lack of ports, but honestly the keyboard is still pretty good, and I don't find myself plugging things into my laptop that often.
Because I got tired of the blue screens of death, and despite the MBP being way over priced it does one thing very well... it works 99% of the time. Plus it looks cool, if you care about that sort of thing.
I'll never understand the "stability" argument for macs. I have a gaming desktop at home that I also use for personal projects. In a decade, I have had zero bluescreens, despite AMD drivers not being the happiest all the time, and doing sketchy things with homemade code that I possibly shouldn't.
Meanwhile, my OSX work laptop needs to be restarted multiple times a week, or the wifi gets temperamental and programs somehow start to accumulate and eat all the available CPU and RAM, it restarts itself periodically with zero warning (thank goodness for the "open everything up exactly how it was" feature, pretty much necessary at this point, compare that with Windows, where I'm glad for the once a month forced restart because otherwise I'd never close out of way too much software), and has had several kernel panics just this year, which are caused by OSX itself according to the dump. It regularly struggles to do basic things, like dismiss the screensaver on wakeup.
It truly is a finicky and pathetic system to me, and the only reason I'm okay with using it is that it has SLIGHTLY better support for POSIX than Windows 7, and because I'm required by my work to use it.
> despite AMD drivers not being the happiest all the time
This is something you will not have to even think about on a healthy mac, as long as the hardware is not damaged in some way.
> Meanwhile, my OSX work laptop needs to be restarted multiple times a week, or the wifi gets temperamental and programs somehow start to accumulate and eat all the available CPU and RAM, it restarts itself periodically with zero warning (...) , and has had several kernel panics just this year, which are caused by OSX itself according to the dump.
Your mac has hardware problems -- ask for a new one, if possible.
Really? OpenGL drivers on macOS are absolutely shitty and I've seen plenty of strange behavior from them that definitely wasn't a hardware issue. It's also not hard to get suspend-resume issues on macOS with perfectly healthy hardware, especially if you keep upgrading instead of installing the new OS fresh. Plus there are plenty of small issues across various utilities here and there. It really isn't the most stable piece of software out there.
I had lots of inexplicable failures and kernel panics, and ran the diagnostic (hold D during startup), got an error code, brought it in, and got a new motherboard.
Runs mostly ok now, though still a pretty crap machine in my view (keyboard, 4 hours battery life (less if you do any actual work), terrible WiFi (2.4 GHz) when any dongle is plugged in (and with 2 ports, one of which is for charging, you need dongles), etc.).
The downvotes for you are puzzling. At work I compile a large project in VS2017 multiple times per day, and my machine will intermittently bluescreen during the compile. Happens to a number of my coworkers as well. W10 has come a long, long way since the unstable foundations of its forebears, but my personal experience with it still includes more crashes than I can write off as flaky hardware/drivers or mere chance.
Agreed, Windows 10 is still a mess. I have constant issues with stability.
My latest fun issue is that my gaming desktop won't install OS updates. It knows there are updates available, but when I tell it to install, the progress bar never progresses. I've tried restarting multiple times, but it makes no difference. I thought maybe I just needed to let it run for a while. It's been running for 3 days now, and the progress bar still hasn't moved.
I guess I'm probably going to have to either reformat the machine, or decide that I don't want OS updates any longer.
Yep. I ranted about this in another thread recently so I won't rehash (much), but part of what I dislike about Windows is that its excessive complexity creates a gulf between the quick fix and "welp, time to reformat." And thanks to the need for backward compatibility, I doubt it will ever get better.
I have a mac mini for my study desktop (use it to shell into machines to develop, watch YouTube tech videos, and listen to music with iTunes from my NAS), but every time I think about buying an MBP I remember the horror stories from watching Louis Rossmann's videos on YouTube and think "Do I really want to drop almost $2,000 on a device that is going to break down because it's more slick than it is well constructed?"
1) people end up with the MBP because they've been very good for a number of years (maybe latest keyboard excepted, I'm still running on older gens personally).
2) Though there are now more alternatives of comparable quality, it's a lot of work (and some risk) to dig up that model in the product line of XX supplier. And even if you find a good model, it often gets watered down with similarly named low-quality options so you have to get very specific about model, and you have to do that every time you have to re-buy outside of Apple.
That said, if you're doing Linux/unix work, I've been eyeing up the purism Librem laptops should I need a replacement.
Wow, thanks for sharing Librem... I had never heard of them but they are now top of my list for a laptop replacement. Linked me friend, he'd never heard of them either, and is now going to get one.
The rest of the team uses them, and the company pays.
The new keyboard absolutely sucks.
But what's even worse, is that with kids around etc, it becomes almost inevitable that there will be some kind of liquid spill etc during the 3-4 year ownership, and that costs ~$700 to replace half the machine, v $50 to replace just the keyboard on most other machines.
I had to do it on the 2013 pro (about 1 year after a coffee spill), now I'm looking at having to pay for (beg the boss to pay for) the awful 2016 pro keyboard again (beer this time, and already a couple of keys are unreliable).
for me, it's because nothing matches MBPs trackpad. I never feel I need a mouse using a MBP, but on both Windows and Linux notebooks, I really need a mouse and sit down in front of a table to be productive.
Is it better on the Surface Book than a regular Surface with a touch cover? Because I have the latter, and it is not even in the same ballpark. I just plug a mouse in when I use my Surface.
This is a big deal for me. I hated trackpads before I got this MBP. I was using a Thinkpad before and I thought it had a pretty nice touchpad compared to other laptops I had used. After a few months, I can't use the Thinkpad's touchpad because it's so much worse (movement and gestures).
SO I am typing this on my Personal Surface pro, and I have a Macbook Pro (2012) for work. I also have developed a distaste for Macs and am not afraid to voice my view.
Simply Mac OS has become shitty in comparison. The Windows XP of the modern era. It's got some cool tricks, but the OS is stale, and almost has to be. Windows and Linux can be innovative because they have more too lose (Like Macs in 2001).
Mac OS's deepest flaw (in my view) is simply terrible window management even compared to earlier versions I have used. If you are a mac head I'm sure it all makes perfect sense, but as someone who aims to switch comfortably between OSs (to the point that I favor OS neutral apps as much as possible) the radical difference in philosophy for Macs is simply Jarring.
But that personal issue aside, the system over relies on security through obscurity. This means that because Mac OS is only used for at most 10% of laptop/desktops, and not servers (Linux) or 90% of laptop/desktops (Windows) they are an incredibly small target for hackers, and are thusly "Secure" despite regularly ranking at the bottom of security reviews. You can see this in the basic security flaws in every new OS release.
Lastly the biggest issue is exposure. The more people there are using something, the more problems there will be. every new person is another chance to find a flaw. Dell, HP, and every computer manufacturer has experienced this.
Now all that said why did I pick a Macbook Pro, and why would I recommend anyone buy one? Simply support, unix, and build quality. Macs get a lot of developer support, meaning that you have access to really great tools. This is the same reason to choose windows for the best MS Office support or what not. My Co-Worker has a hackintosh just so he can run music editing software when he is not gaming (which of course he runs windows for).
Unix is also a killer feature. You get the great native Posix shell (which LSS on Windows, and just Linux also provides), which makes it easy to develop on and for the Linux/unix systems I rely on at work.
The build Quality is also great. Windows PCs are finally rivaling Macs, but Macs just are well made and hold up well to age.
But the problem with the Mac is that the OS has become actively worse in recent years. They could have literally not updated it at all in the last decade or so and the system would be better than it is today.
The same is true for the hardware. A Macbook of 5 years ago is a better machine than the current ones (except for things like CPU speed etc, of course).
Note that this is of course not limited to Apple. Windows 8 was also quantifiably a worse operating system than Windows 7. GNOME has gone through the same quality degradation on multiple occasions as well.
I specifically talked about the difference between Windows 7 and 8, because that's one case where I don't think anyone could disagree.
I personally feel that 7 is still a better system than 10, but I acknowledge that other people could make a valid argument for the opposite.
My 2011 Macbook Air is still on 10.8. Partially because it has a 64 GB SSD with not enough free space to upgrade, but also because there is absolutely nothing in newer versions that would make it better, and plenty of things that makes it worse.
Honestly the linux subsystem for windows 10 is good enough for me. I see less and less of a need for an osx box for development if you're just looking for a unix subsystem.
FWIW I use a Dell XPS 13 and a Surface Pro and both work perfectly well. Install Ubuntu from the app store, get Mobaxterm and run gnome-terminal. You're set at that point.
I find it "just" good enough, if I limit my development requirements. It won't run the latest CockroachDB for example (bug filed). Running anything under Docker that has significant internet I/O leads to having to restart Docker several times a day - this seems to be due to excessive caching (or a memory leak) in the necessary VPN technique Docker uses to interact with the Windows networking. This bug seems to alternate between existence and non-existence - maybe it's a dual development track issue at Docker. Running tmux has odd interactions regarding copy/paste that I still find irritating, but I simply live with. So, what I do is use it as a proper ssh terminal, do and keep my work on other proper servers, and live with the tmux idiosyncrasies. That's just good enough for me, and lets me use a large-screen Yoga, which I like, and keep Windows, which work occasionally requires, without messing with VMs.
I have no desire to get a MacBook Pro. They are overpriced, you have to carry around dongles for everything and I would rather have real function keys than the touch bar. I actually like both my work and home Dell 2n1s better.
On the other hand, I'm slowly moving away from being a "windows developer". I'm still using .Net but it's .Net Core. As I start seeing how great the "Windows Tax" is as far as system resources and cost when it comes to running hosted servers, Docker, serverless functions, etc. it makes no sense to stay on Windows, but I really don't feel like mucking with Linux on my personal computer. I've owned Macs in the past and having both commercial software, and a real Unix operating system would be ideal and of course I could do iOS development.
So the question is, do you need a laptop? For $100 more you can get a 27 inch 5K iMac with 32GB of RAM a 2TB fusion drive. You get a faster computer, twice as much RAM. A better keyboard, a more performant GPU and USB 3 ports.
Keep in mind that you're probably not hearing from folks who like them. I use one all day at work and like it fine, even though I like the keyboard of my 2013 MBP better.
The Razer Blade is a surprisingly capable, beautiful alternative.
I will say that the primary driver is more being on MacOS, which is a nice middle ground for ease of use for our developer team that's primarily working in things like Ruby on Rails and React, and also really great for movie editing for our marketing folks.
We're all still holding hope that the next MBP fixes the keyboard issues. Personally I'm still jamming on a 2011 MBA that's probably the single most reliable, functional piece of hardware I've ever owned. It's the definitive workhorse. It's a shame the quality hasn't kept pace across the other lines and new models.
I think a certain, very vocal group of people violently reacted to the 2016 re-design's keyboard and switch to USB-C. But I also think that most users are still pretty happy with their Macs most of the time - they just don't post blog posts about that.
I understand the complaints about keyboard failures due to dust getting under keys, but my personal experience with a 2016 model has been fine. I had to blow it out once with compressed air after 1.5 years and it worked again fine after that. It took two minutes and wasn't a big deal to me.
I don't understand the violent hate of the switch to USB-C. I find it super convenient that my phone (Samsung S8), laptop and Nintendo Switch all charge from the same power cable. And getting a couple of thin USB-C end-cap convertors on Amazon to plug in older USB devices cost me less than $10. It just hasn't been a negative at all for me.
Beyond that, Macs in general are a great compromise for developers who want to write code that runs primarily on Linux servers but who don't want to run Linux as a laptop OS (which can be a pain in the ass on laptops due to unpredictable battery drain, unreliable suspend/restore, no native support for software like Photoshop/Lightroom, less polished UI, whatever your reasons).
Windows has gotten a lot better in that regard, but a lot of Unix-native stuff still sucks to install and run on Windows. Docker on Windows is a dog, installing various native extensions for Python is a real pain in Windows, etc.
There's lots of little paper cuts using Windows in a Linux environment because Windows is just so different than Linux. For example, you can write and test a Docker file on a Windows machine that won't rebuild cleanly on a Linux server because on Windows you don't have to chmod +x your Docker entrypoint script, but on Linux the Docker image won't start after a rebuild because the entrypoint script will get installed with your local file permissions (which aren't set to +x by default). That's just one tiny example, but that's the kind of thing that illustrates why people building code primarily for for Linux servers might not prefer using Windows on their personal machine.
I have a 2017 13" touch-bar at home and a 2016 15" touch-bar at work.
The work machine works fine and is mostly docked so I don't care about the ports either.
My personal macbook however was a totally different story:
- While usb-c only ports were annoying, it was much improved by the usb-c to usb-a converter included with my Samsung S8 (oh, the irony).
- The keyboard, however, was a totally different experience. I've had two replacements - one where some keys started failing (as in they'd either get stuck down or up randomly) and another one where the touchbar started acting really weird (no wakeups, hangs etc..) which was just as bad because they moved escape key to "touch" bar. Go figure.
I have the same experience as you regarding the keyboard. Lots of people on here wrote about failing keyboards, but I never had a problem with mine after 3 years (Macbook Retina 2015, Macbook Pro 2017, still use both mostly daily, with the Pro daily).
I think people are mostly complaining about the direction the last update took, such as the touchbar which seems more targeted at less experienced computer users and lack of RAM options beyond 16gb, etc.
I have been a Mac user for less than 5 years now, and have used 4 Macs ranging from 2012 to 2017 models. I don't think they suck.
For most purposes, even dev ones, they are very nice. Stable, reliable, performant. They might not be the top-of-the-line laptops but they are awesome at getting things done - as long as you don't want to impose your own requirements on it (OS, storage, RAM, etc.)
I do have to agree that they are damn expensive though. I cringe at the thought of replacing my old one and am NOT doing that unless its imperative. :|
I like my MBP, but if I got a different job and was picking a laptop, I'd first figure out what the rest of the team is using. At my current job, the whole team I'm on (and most of the company) use Macs, so bringing new people into projects is easy because pretty much everyone has the same setup.
If everyone here used Windows, I'd probably begrudgingly switch.
I have read a fair bit about Python being a mess on Macs recently, and a few years ago Java was apparently a mess. I don't use a mac so I wouldn't know, but is it really just a case of installing things easily on a Mac?
If it's available on Homebrew and up to date(!), then most of the time it's two or three commands to install. However, when homebrew doesn't do the job 100%, then you are likely better off trying to build from source rather than play around with how homebrew works to "fix" its install
I don't own a MBP, but I use one for work, so this is mostly geared toward a work environment.
I was "that one jackass who uses Linux instead of OSX" at a previous company. At my current job, I use a MBP like everyone else.
I don't think the MBP sucks; for me, an external keyboard and Bluetooth mouse solve almost all the annoyances. I find that things work a little more smoothly when I'm using the same operating environment as everyone else. Getting help when things don't work is easier, too. I have confidence that things like screen sharing will work and not cause me grief. If there's an app that my company wants to use, I just download and run it without checking if there's a Linux version.
The bottom line is that it's a lot of little conveniences that add up, with little downside.
My 2012 MBP is still going strong and I see no need to replace it. That never happend to me with Windows laptops that I used for a decade before that.
I love the trackpad of MBPs. The aesthetics and physical build are good. The OS hardly ever gets in my way. The UI has been stable and usable and improving over the last 6 years of use. Apple's hardware service has been great (had video card issue a couple of years ago - $200 flat rate fix got me new motherboard, new screen with top cover, new video card). It has all the ports I need. Magsafe connector is genious. The display is crystal clear and high res.
I have had a genuinely good experience with my 2012 MBP. Barring bad hardware luck and missteps by Apple like the touch bar, people complaining about MBPs are being nitpicky.
In my opinion there is no alternative. In the new MacBook pro the keyboard feels great. I have access to UNIX terminal and access MS office Apps. More over Apple commitment (so far) to privacy keeps you safe.
Because, like monarchy, they are still the least worst option when considering both the OS and hardware combined, for most people.
The issues with the latest macbooks are real and severe, but running windows or linux, even on nice hardware like an X1, remains a sufficiently annoying and disruptive change to stop people. We can all hope that eventually this will change, but as of right now I don't see a forcing function.
The only thing I miss from my 2015 MBP is the MagSafe charger. Hardware wise, everything else now is better I think, even the touch bar which actually means there’s some utility for me in that space of the keyboard – I never used the Fn-keys and a software Esc key doesn’t bother me one bit.
1. Homebrew
2. iTerm
3. Cmd + R for recovery mode
4. A multi touch trackpad. Move quickly between workspaces.
5. Fast! I have 500GB with 16GB RAM. Yes its expensive for I get, but I had bad times relying on windows laptop.
6. Save and restore Application states after reboot!
7. VIM! I love vim.
8. Blend of linux and Xwindows.
This things are top of my list. I use windows PC just for gaming. :)
An additional reason: When they came out, the latest updates on the (other) existing machines had been looooong ago.
I had been very happy with a succession of MacBook Airs, and when my machine died end of 2016, I wanted to get a new laptop running macOS, and they were basically all years old - except the shiny new MBP, which I got (despite saying they suck, for the price at any rate).
The one I bought 6 years ago is finally beginning to fade, so I am replacing it with a new one that is the 2015 model with the non-touch-dealie keyboard.
Most of my friends who rail against macbook pro are about the keyboard issues. This model has the older style keyboard and none of the issues.
My main machine for the past few years has been Lenovo X1 Carbon from a few gens ago - have had a great experience. Dual boots windows and Ubuntu without issue, battery life is great, performance is great with 16G/SSD/i7, feels well built and keyboard is as good as any that I've had on a Thinkpad. The only thing I miss from the MBP is the trackpad.
If you can get used a TrackPoint (the nub thing on ThinkPads) or similar on another brand it's probably a better alternative to a MBP. I did as of a few years ago and would never go back to the imprecise and slow navigation with a trackpad.
Another one here. Loved my Macbook Pro 2013, then the O/S turned to crap, gave it to my wife. Currently using a Carbon X1 and it's wonderful. Amazing battery life, Fedora 28, touchpad small but nipple is brilliant on the train when i'm cheek-to-jowl with the guy next to me who's also on a laptop. Wouldn't go back to a new Macbook, but I do miss the 2013 as it was delivered to me before the O/S was ruined.
Yeah, I do. Just wanted to try it a couple of years ago. Honestly -- not worth it (on Linux HiDPI is not there where I wanted it to be, plus with my love of bitmap fonts, it can be hard), especially in a heavily shortcut-powered WM (I use Fluxbox and bspwm occasionally). But that's just me.
My next workhorse will still be X1 nextgen, but with regular 1080p resolution and matte screen. Much much better. Like my Zenbook at home -- which is ideal for me, but less powerful for work-related tasks.
Why is there much more discussion about apple laptops than thinkpads? I feel linux on thinkpad would the most efficient combination for people who call themselves 'hackers'
Thinkpads are no longer the high quality machines they once were...
Apple should devote more effort to the MBP lineup (in particular a higher end machine with up to 64 GB of ECC RAM like Dell and HP offer), but the MBPs hit a sweet spot for development in many ways.
You can always run Linux in a VM if you really need to do something with Linux...
High price, but really good hardware. Battery life is amazing, the screen is amazing. Its not 4k, but high enough DPI. Plus computers with 4k screen have crappy battery life.
Because for the people you describe, they love MBP's and no other option comes close for what they prefer, but with love comes wanting it to be more perfect.
when the touchbar macs with only usb c ports came out I went to the used market and bought the best used macbook pro I could find that still had hdmi, thunderbolt and USB.
I love my macbook, but mainly I love having a *nix based operating system. Windows is starting to get it and so in the next iteration of hardware I might switch over.
What's the alternative? Linux? Windows? Take the top 10 most valuable Tech companies in the world. Their dev folks use Macs and probably MBP's. Do you really think you need something better than that? Again, it does not exist... doesn't stop us from making a lot of money shipping code.
the main problem for people complaining about the new macbooks pro is the keyboard. just buy a silicone keyboard cover protection and it's working great!
That depends on your tools and platforms of choice. For most open source stuff, Windows has less support than Linux and macOS because it usually requires tweaks (build tools, libs, etc).
I usually see this as a purposeful choice of open source teams and developers. It's not like you CAN'T create an easy and thorough build process for Windows machines. Even if you ignore turning it into a VS solution, batch files can do the job, but nobody is willing to do the extra work because they personally don't use Windows so it won't benefit them.
I have to second the other person recommending a Lenovo X1 Carbon. I had one for awhile and it was just about the perfect laptop. Surface Pro looks nice too.