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Startup School Beijing (startupschool.org)
153 points by tvvocold on Apr 25, 2018 | hide | past | web | favorite | 177 comments

How does this work since foreigners are still not allowed to have equity in Chinese startups? Is YC getting an exemption from the government, or are they holding it in a Chinese incorporated company?

Usually, it's structured as a WFOE (wholly foreign-owned entity) with Singapore, BVI, or HK LLC as a parent company. Then shares are issued in HK LLC.

This is not my experience, owning one and having owned another. Foreigners can own outright or have a stake in multiple types of organizations, either directly or indirectly, though not all (certain protected sensitive industries such as media, finance, etc.). I suppose this is perhaps a misconception based upon some kind of isolated incidence in which a domestic Chinese registered company had issues writing a foreign investor as a direct shareholder. I am certain this can be done but wouldn't be surprised if it may require alteration of the registration category of the company or the reformation of a new entity owing to the ancient (but improving!) corporate registration system which was geared toward early large foreign industrial investments which came with substantial government shepherding. I seriously doubt the assumed case that caused this misconception is some kind of conniving attempt at ineffective protectionism - far more likely just the wee end of inertia stemming from old-school socialist bureaucracy.

This is simply not true. Many foreigners have been scammed by this, working for a Chinese startup on the promise of equity, and then being eventually told it is impossible because the government won’t allow it. See: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-....

If you are a foreigner working for a domestic startup, you simply aren’t allowed to have equity. If the company is already listed or is a foreign company, then no problem, otherwise it simply isn’t allowed.

Yes, no company can offer options if they are not public, without any exceptions as I know.

Any promise of an option through a proxy subsidiary, variable interest entity for a non listed company is not legal under the republic's law.

On other hand, a right-away stock transfer is fully legit.

If they sell a part of the stock to a listing aggregation vessel, you can have a part of this vessel's share.

Though, I keep myself a kilometer away from any financial scheme in China, and advise you do the same.

No idea why you are being downvoted, but your reply is pretty factual.

I think people are reacting negatively to: "Though, I keep myself a kilometer away from any financial scheme in China, and advise you do the same."

The idea that "any financial scheme" in China is worse than a "financial scheme" anywhere else doesn't make sense.

I would totally agree with him though. You don’t want to get entangled into opaque Chinese financial schemes as a foreigner. You just don’t have the knowledge (inside or otherwise) or guanxi to do it well. If something goes wrong, the legal system isn’t going to help you out.

What does China have to do with it?

Do you want to be "entangled into opaque financial schemes" in the US as a native?

If something "goes wrong", do you want to rely on the legal system?

You should avoid bad investments everywhere.

The USA has a functional legal system that doesn't discriminate between foreigners and locals. If you are promised something and that can't be delivered, you don't have to just accept 没办法, it is the difference between a first world country and a third-world one.

In China, there is nothing but "bad investments", the stock market is insider trader heavy, the real estate market is bonkers, the shadow banking market...which your bank, even if it is ICBC, will actively try to sell you on, is really dodgy. Then there are crowd sourced micro finance platforms that are basically Ponzi schemes...heck, bitcoin looks like a great safe transparent investment in comparison.

OK so it seems you are conflating "people have been scammed by being offered stock options in vehicles that didn't legally have any [to offer them particularly]" with "foreigners can't own part of Chinese companies". There's a big difference.

chinalawblog.com is a good source, but I know foreigners who made 7 figures with stock options in China.

Also, a western buddy of mine co-runs a VC fund. Many of the China based start-ups have western equity holders. Something is missing here.

"If you are a foreigner working for a domestic startup, you simply aren’t allowed to have equity."

This can't be true since you can have equity in a company. Start-up or not. An IPO may be a different thing because a regular foreigner can't hold A-Shares. If (big if) he holds a Chinese green card then even this is allowed.

The number of foreigners with green cards is really small, I’ve never met one before, so I have no idea about their situation.

I thought the whole point of the equity restriction is that you can’t hold A shares. What other kind of equity class is there besides outright ownership? And thats not even getting into the Huawei mess.

Well, for money, they can bend their knees.

I am amazed by the negativity in the comments. China is a very specific environment with its own rules - just like the US or Europe.

There you need to maintain good relations with the party, in the western world it is government officials (preferably those who are not voted into office and thus stick around).

Entering such a new, different playing field should tickle every entrepreneur's nerves.

Edit: How we fail, esp. in the fb- and now Google debate, that most of the tech we develop is dual-use and can be turned against us in an instant, escapes me.

I have the priveledge of being around Chinese students who are studying in the US. Two comments I've heard recently:

'Doing research in China is the dream'

'I'll move back to China after I graduate; there's more opportinuty for startups there.'

I've had the dubious privilege of being around many college students, and in that experience the fact that they say something is true about markets or academia has very little relationship to whether it is actually true.

you go china, you listen to CCP, then you probably will make some money by trading away your soul.

if you want to have freedom of speech there somehow, you're out immediately, the great firewall is there for a reason.

How will this impact my social credit score?

Every day China is becoming even more of a nightmare dystopia, so of course YC will dive in headfirst.

This is awesome. I’ve been wondering how hard it is to partner up, give trainings or consult in China. Without many english speakers there it seems that the Chinese language is a pre requisite but it might be getting better.

If anyone has experience to share I’d be interested. I’m guessing this kind of ventures might be easy sales to universities like Tsing Hua.

What do you have? What do you want?

Oh, I've been giving applied crypto trainings at Black Hat and different venues. I was wondering if I could train or give classes in China, or collaborate or do security consulting for companies there.

India drives the most number of applications to YC after the USA.

I wonder why China was chosen over India.

I don't find Beijing to be the best place to start something like that. I'd rather prefer Shanghai which provides a much better ecosystem and access to capital than Beijing.

Shenzhen is the tech place to be in China. But if you want to make the government happy, you got to be near them in Beijing, so a lot of tech happens there also.

Is true, but Shenzhen is culturally very different from Beijing and so is Shanghai.

Shenzhen is a new city and tech stuff are there because of the influence of Guangzhou as production hub and HK as facilitator for access to the west.

Beijing is more, let me say it, artistic. Is much more vibrant, culturally, than any other city in China. This kind of mix that you can find in New Work, Berlin or London also it brings innovation. So I don't think is meant to make the government "happy". Many Chinese tech company started in Beijing form many reasons: education, capital access, culture and so on. To give you an example: Mobike was founder by an ex journalist

Many tech companies started in Beijing with obvious government boosts. There is also the major research universities (PKU and Qinghua at the top, many more at tiers just under). However, Beijing is also famous for government meddling and Black Audi-style privileged that is lacking in SZ and SH.

Take traffic for example, it is much saner in SH and SZ because the police can actually enforce the rules, whereas in BJ you get a asense they have given up because they feel like everyone is an official or is connected to one. It is a weird city even by Chinese standards.

I don't have nothing to support this thesis. I just shared my pure observation, after living there for a while, I notice it was a way more dynamic compared to the other 'cold' Chinese cities.

Yet I think my message didn't pass through since I got downvoted

I lived in Beijing for 10 years working in tech so know it pretty well. I always surprised how much smoother things were in SH in comparison to BJ. Heck, many second tier cities (like Hangzhou) were much better run than Beijing.

Mobike being founded by an ex-journalist is an argument against your point, not for it. Journalism work in China isn't artistic, rather it revolves around finding things to say that keeps the govt happy.

As a foreigner, Shenzhen is kind of a boring industrial city. That's probably why they chose Beijing which is equally as exciting as Shanghai in my opinion. As for pollution, they might both be pretty bad choices.

If they were going to do it that way, better to pick a nice western city like Chengdu or Kunming. The latter even has clean air sometimes (though definitely not as good as it used to be).

Beijing and Shanghai also have large community of expats.

Doesn't SZ also? The number of expats in all of China is only about what Tokyo has, so I guess it really depends on what you mean by "large."

> The number of expats in all of China is only about what Tokyo has

Do you have a source on that?

SZ didn't seem to have any foreigners when I was there. The expat community of BJ is pretty crazy for having spent a year there.

I spent almost 10 years in Beijing (2007-2016), and it seemed like everyone knew everyone. I was off a bit, there are 500,000 foreigners in Tokyo, compared to around 600,000 foreigners in China:



Japan has twice as many foreigners as China does, with many of them concentrated in the Tokyo region.

Wow, that's a long time, I was there during your time so we might have met. It's true that everyone seemed to know everyone :) I guess I was just surrounded by this expat community hence why I felt like it was so big.

Weird question but did you know TUN bar? Last time I was in BJ it was closed and I was really sad about it :(

Bars come and go in Beijing, I stopped keeping up with it once I got married :).

A country where if you disagree with any policy on social media, your kids literally can't go to school, you can't fly and you can't buy a house.

Sure, I'll invest right away!

I'm not optimistic about this at all. The same metrics for success just don't apply in China. All the elements necessary for success in the US could be there, but in China the startup may get red-taped and legislated out of existence in favor of a basically identical entity with better connections to the Satanic squid in charge of the country. I predict a rapid demise for this project, sorry to say. Talented Chinese entrepreneurs, please make your way out of the country as soon as you can.

Having spent 5 years there, I have to say it's not a uniform hellscape, to say the least.

There are millions of potential Chinese entrepreneurs, idealistic and talented, who deserve to have their efforts catalyzed. That's the way forward. If you want a new generation of leaders and a more egalitarian culture, you are not alone, and I'm super happy to see YC decide to help build it.

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "questionable" things you will all be a part of building now. Of course, none of that will be in there, because you all already know that to say anything untoward on the matter would break the ice right out from under your feet.

And of course, that's all if you're actually "successful", unlikely given the CCP will prefer something more malleable than even the likes of Zuckerberg are willing to be. I foresee a rapid demise to this project, indeed, I pray for it, as the alternative, you guys actually succeeding, would be painful to watch given what it will involve.

Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable government treatment and takes over the nascent market), not to mention the political uncertainty of having to deal with / win the favor of arbitrary officials in the Chinese government that may have interests conflicting with your own.

And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling - suppose you create a wildly successful and helpful service for Chinese people that involves users' geographic data, private messages between individuals, or financial transactions. You won't get a say in turning over that data to authorities for any and every reason that they have for wanting it. Are you willing to actively participate in corruption and the quashing of political dissent for money?

> you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling

Keep in mind, YC took money from Yuri Milner in 2011 even though people knew at the time that there were connections to Russian oligarchs [1] and funded startups that promulgated junkware installers [2] among other things. On the "doing the right thing" vs "making more money" spectrum, YC is firmly on the side of "making more money", ethics be damned.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3143894 the PG comment and the first few responses contextualize this well.

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711 a discussion about InstallMonetizer

> Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world.

I'd go even one step further, it is more like partnering with Germany, except in this version of the story Germany might be successful in its quest to take over the world, because make no mistake, China is coming for your market, it's only a matter of time.

It is encouraging that more and more people are finally starting to put the pieces of this puzzle together, shame it is far too little and far too late.

The vast fear and ignorance in this thread is amusing but the comparison of China to Nazi Germany is perhaps a new low, even for Hacker News?

It's interesting though how people develop such warped perceptions of the world. It's exactly how the greatest disaster of the 21st century, the absolutely unprovoked and absolutely senseless American invasion of Iraq which killed a million people and directly led to the rise of Isis and even more extreme suffering, come to pass. And so what you have here is a bunch of silly people, few of which have likely even been to China let alone done any serious investigation of Chinese culture or politics, utterly trapped in a paranoid fantasy in which -- believe it or not -- China is the aggressor coming for their markets. Nevermind the US's military bases all over the world or the TPP, an initiative started by the US with the explicit goal of denying and containing Chinese expansion.

This sort of delusion is just breath taking. I guess all one can do is hope it doesn't lead to war but I strongly suspect it is. Americans will never face reality as this thread shows. They will gladly and firmly embrace the delusion and blame all their problems on somebody else even if it leads to absolute catastrophe. Absolutely nothing has changed since the Iraq War.

It always amazes me the mental gymnastics involved from people who support Chinas censorship regime. Freedom of information and the open Internet is one of the most important and valuable things thats happened to humanity but hey man, you just don't respect their way of doing things. Sorry, a country that censors Google and Wikipedia, brainwashes its people with propaganda and runs a social credit score system isn't a country any intellectual worth his or her salt should be participating in.

> the comparison of China to Nazi Germany is perhaps a new low, even for Hacker News?

How so? Mao killed 70 million compared to Hitler's 20. And Germany doesn't hold their former leader in high regard anymore.

Islam led to the rise of ISIS. It’s not the USA fault the Middle East is incapable of democracy.

How many people were killed in the cultural revolution?

I'd love to see a defense of Chinese policy that doesn't fall back upon whataboutism. America's shortcomings have nothing to do with my ability to criticism China's human rights abuses and appalling lack of individual liberty.

There are plenty of people in China who are happy to discuss the pros and cons of their government, especially as compared to America. You could even read Chinese newspapers and forums (some are in English or you could even learn Mandarin!) where this stuff is hashed out all the time. But it would require courage and integrity and a real willingness to learn. It's much easier to parrot what you hear second-hand from the media, isn't it?

The real issue here isn't Chinese policy. Frankly, I doubt you're actually interested in Chinese policy or even the welfare of the Chinese people. The real issue here is the power of ignorance and fear. Reactions like above are a monument to it.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing pros and cons on the Chinese government from Chinese who are currently living in mainland China. Particularly on the topics that are the biggest flash points on HN - government censorship/great firewall/surveillance/social credit scores, etc. Do you have any English-language resources for this? Or decently translated sources? No snark or sarcasm - I've searched before, but either find nothing or hit a language barrier.

Here are some informative YouTube channels that I've watched for quite some time:




Typically someone will very quickly chime in and say these are "propaganda" and you should completely ignore them. If you ask these people if the facts stated in the video are true or false, they will not answer the question. Watch with a skeptical mind, compare to facts you read in other sources, and judge for yourself. A big difference between these YouTubers (well, China Uncensored is biased to be fair) and what you'll read in the mainstream media is, these people live there, they are reporting the truth far more accurately than you'll get from other sources (on the topics they cover - they don't really get into macroeconomics for example.)

> There are plenty of people in China who are happy to discuss the pros and cons of their government, especially as compared to America





I'm sure you'll forgive my skepticism.

Is it possible to criticize China without it being classified as "ignorance and fear"? Seriously, what "ignorance" are you referring to? Is it perhaps your mind interpreting specific criticisms as claims of pure evil?

> The vast fear and ignorance in this thread is amusing but the comparison of China to Nazi Germany is perhaps a new low, even for Hacker News?. It's interesting though how people develop such warped perceptions of the world.

It's amazing how you can deduce what I believe without me having said it. How long have you been able to read minds?

It is this hyper-anti-racism aspect of modern western culture that is enabling China to walk in and take over the world, and get the people from whom they're taking market share help them out in their endeavor.

"And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling..."

This is the thing I don't understand. Ten years ago, you could make a case that simply by making stuff people want, the world would become more connected, all sorts of goodness will happen.

You can no longer make that case. People are not idiots. They see both the good and bad that tech has brought.

Technology companies are ethically responsible for what their tools end up doing. And if they can't be bothered to develop their own ethics, the rest of us are going to have to develop some for them.

I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into.

> The most amazing thing about Silicon Valley is that they all think they are on the left side of the political spectrum, while it is totally unquestioned that the venture capital firms should make every single decision on how human activity is organized.

Existentialist Comics https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/98887750761196748...

The political spectrum is more like a political plane, with one axis being economic and the other being social, and with a 2 party system we've conveniently collapsed it into a line.

It's probably more accurate to say that silicon valley runs libertarian, especially those in the startup game, and especially YC and folks.


>I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into.

It seems so very much. From my impression, SV people in China are not to run a new business, rather than to secure connections. See, they did not pair with a university with a genuine tech cred, nor they hold this school anywhere close to a tech hub, but in Beijing, and a university that is second after the central committee party school. The list of invited people I've heard also suggest that.

Wait is the implication here that tsinghua uni has no tech cred?

I agree that parts of tsinghua are pretty chummy with the party, but trying to claim it has no tech cred seems a bit of a stretch. It's arguably in like the top 10 eng/comp sci unis in the entire world. Both QS and ARWU put it in top 10. (THE puts it in top 20)

Tsinghua Uni is big in everything, not only tech as "the official no. 1 university in the country by decree" must be. Not to say that it is also freaking wealthy, as much alike Yale Uni is in USA (through Tsinghua University Group Holding.)

No denial from me that that they do pump out high profile publications in amount enough to bruteforce themselves into ratings.

Think of them as a Moscow State Uni back in USSR times.

The few universities Chinese tech scene gives cred, are virtually unknown in the West, you will not find them on any rating list, but that does not preclude their students be "booked" years in advance by the industry.

Could you name those few unknown universities with tech cred? I'm genuinely curious, in case I decide to study computer science in China in the future. I thought Tsinghua was the one to aim for.

HUST (Huazhong University of Science and Technology), HIT Shenzhen (Harbin Institute of Technology, Shenzhen campus). These are ones I can name right away. If you add "another China," it will also be NTUST, NTU for semiconductor engineering (this is the one and only way to get a TSMC internship.)

I'm trying to remember others. I do remember that some well regarded ones are not even universities per se, but vocational colleges with 2 year diplomas.

I'll add Harbin Engineering Uni and Shenyang Uni for actual engineering studies. Heavy industry, aerospace, do shop here. Both have near nil prominence on research, but it is their undergraduate papers people are for.

It may be surprising that North-East of China other than Beijing gets engineering cred, but this is where the original Chinese industrial and arms manufacturing complex were. If you look up on the list of Chinese arms manufacturers, and in each city having a big plant, you have an accompanying "feeder" university.

Nanyang Tech has cred in mainland, but it seems that it only has a very small grad school detachment there.

South China University of Technology - simply because it is big, and is in the heart of the industrial agglomeration.

A general mid-tier option are central universities of peripheral provinces. Not they are prominent in a research domain, but companies shopping grads there look for people who genuinely got admission with good exam marks, but did not have money to go to top tier universities (read, they are cheap brain).

Fudan Uni Zhangjiang campus - probably the only uni in China that feeds domestic semiconductor industry with high-to-mid-tier cadres, well it was opened with this as its main mandate.

One last thing to note - China was and is scooping Eastern European and Indian grads by tonnes, being a foreigner from a Chinese uni does not give you much of a hand on a job market just for that alone.

Cash Rules Everything Around Me

So says Wu-Tang Clan and apparently YC.

I think the song was about rising out poverty and that the Wu-tang did it music instead of gangbanging, killing, and drug dealing. They use their own experiences to show young men living in poverty that the can find other means to obtain respect and lots of money that is healthy for themselves and their communities.

Quite the opposite. The songs is about them selling drugs: “Catchin' keys from 'cross seas, Rollin' in MPV's, Every week we made forty G's”

The basic premise is money rules everything so if I want power/influence/success I have to either play the game or accept defeat.

“Method Man is not glorifying money and excess; rather, he’s saying that money holds power, and is a factor of major decisions made in the world he lives in. Those who have it, have power and those who don’t, won’t get up anywhere; sort of a way of saying “Money is the root of all evil”, if you will.”

I don't think so

China is the future though. As scary as that is, it’s still reasonable to invest in Chinese tech, at least if your plan is to make money.

I don’t think westerners in general realize how advanced China is becoming. Being from Europe, visiting China is like stepping into a sci-fI novel. Not a happy one, mind you, but it’s becoming impossible to ignore.

> China is the future though. As scary as that is, it’s still reasonable to invest in Chinese tech, at least if your plan is to make money.

I don't have a lot of examples of successful western companies operating in China, they all seems to be blocked of at some point because of ""regulations"".

Just name a few: GM, Apple, Intel, Microsoft, McDonald, Coca Cola, Pizza Hut, Hershey, Nestle, Prada, Coach, Ikea, Starbucks, LinkedIn, Airbnb.

Many car manufacturers (incl. Mercedes, BMW) and fashion brands (incl. H&M, Nike)

I'm curious what will happen to China's economy after another major economic crisis. Especially if it happens in say 10 years, by then robot manufacturing should be much more advanced and many western companies may opt to quit China and go the robot route.

Make no mistake. YC will slowly but surely come under pressure to give the CCP influence over content as well as access to private user data, first their own and then that they wield influence over.

Don't forget the malware-ridden Chinese Skype client, LinkedIn's willingness to censor global content on China's behalf, or Yahoo's capitulation of dissident information that lead to executions.

HN will likely start suppressing any factual discussion on Taiwan or the nine dash line as "flamewar bait" while allowing increasingly nationalistic Chinese propaganda to pass unchecked. It won't be today or tomorrow but money and influence wear down almost any organization eventually.

This is a sad day, and it only marks the beginning what is to come.

I noticed that Airbnb operates in China currently. Perhaps there are other YC investments as well, but it seems this isn't the beginning of YC's investment into China.

I had begun writing up a tin-foil hat theory on why YC would open this Startup School there, until I realized Airbnb, one of YC's flagship investments is already there.

I don't think they're sharing too much user data yet. E.g., a user's visits outside of China are likely still private for a while longer.

What if this is just a way for American companies to acquire Chinese tech or talent?

It would be extremely stupid. Judging by the number of Chinese working tech in the USA, they have already acquired that.

Here's to the next-generation YC-backed censorship tools!

I've become rather disturbed by the amount of pro-autocratic sentiment I've encountered in tech circles. It comes in both the "right" (and "alt-right") and "left" varieties, as well as a few other weirder forms, but it's there.

I guess hackers are no different from anyone else. Dangle money in front of people and they do tend to toss their morals out the window more often than not. I am not claiming that I am superior either. If someone offered me a shitload of money to do something I considered unethical, I can't say with 100% certainty that I'd never take it... to claim so would be the fallacy of self-exclusion. "I might be a coward I've just never been tested." - The Mighty Mighty Bosstones / The Impression That I Get

I've also anecdotally observed that people with high IQs are often autocrats. They're prone to imagining that there are straightforward solutions to all the worlds problems and that all these problems could be solved if only things were run by smart people like them. They haven't yet been humbled by attempting to solve a really brutal multi-objective optimization problem or tame a complex system full of paradoxical effects and feedback loops. Attempting to govern a complex society is both of these things.

This is jingoism masquerading as concern for autocracy. If people really cared about things like surveillance or dystopias in any serious way they would be on the streets about the extensively documented activities of the NSA, rubber stamp courts, secret orders, searching through personal effects at borders and campaigning for Snowden and other whistle blowers to be brought back with honors.

But on the ground these laws are renewed without protest, whistle blowers are hounded and demonized with little to no push back and dissenters like Snowden and Assange continue to be stranded for years on end.

If no one seems to care enough about these issues in our own countries or our own dissenters how can concern for others countries be authentic. Don't use fabricated concerns to demonize others.

It seems very fashionable to pull out moral equivalency every time China's autocracy and misbehavior is mentioned.

Simple experiment:

1. Walk down Pennsylvania Avenue with a sign that says "Trump is a pussy grabber who should be impeached". 2. Go to Tiananmen Square and hold up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre.

See how equivalent the governments are then.

(As an aside... if I was employed by the Chinese government to spread propaganda in other countries, your comment is roughly what I'd write).

You can make an exact comparison. Not too terribly long ago I saw protests holding up poster sized pictures of prisoner abuse from Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Bay, which is roughly like holding up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre. Nothing happened to these people in spite of the fact that these pictures are deeply embarrassing to the US government and intensely inflammatory in regions of the world where we don't want to be inflammatory.

As much as I give Snowden credit for exposing what can be dangerous autocratic programs, I also must point out that Snowden was not just some random protester. Snowden violated a government secrecy oath that he signed, which is a crime and this fact is printed rather boldly on the contract. Nobody forces you to sign these oaths. You can always say "I'm sorry, I can't sign this, I quit" and walk out and get another job.

That's part of what "the rule of law" actually means. In a nation with the rule of law, the law applies objectively to everyone: crooks, politicians, and yes even do-gooders. If the law is wrong you can vote for representatives to change it, but until then what's written is the law. If the law says it's illegal to hop on a pogo stick, then anyone hopping on a pogo stick gets arrested even if they're on their way to feed starving orphans.

(Secret courts are another matter, and I think those are un-American and should be shut down. But they are used far less in America than in China, and when they are used and the fact becomes known there's generally quite an uproar.)

Also-- personally I find the NSA and CIA less alarming than Facebook and Google. Three-letter agencies operate with at least some democratic oversight and the intel they gather does tend to be used primarily for legitimate intelligence and national security purposes. Unfortunately we do not live on planet fluffy bunny hugs and we need an intelligence service and a military. Facebook and Google operate with zero oversight whatsoever and sell their surveillance services to the highest bidder. Private surveillance operations are completely lawless.

Would you do something truly immoral, because "rule of law"? An example: Every new born child with Apgar score below 8 should be killed. Would you really do it? Would you stick to the rule of law?

> Snowden violated a government secrecy oath that he signed, which is a crime and this fact is printed rather boldly on the contract.

He broke the contract, but you can make a case that the contract was in violation of constitution.

If I were ordered to do something that deeply immoral by the state I might pretend I was going to comply, but only long enough to pack a "go bag" and get myself and my family out of the country. You picked an incredibly extreme example. Not only would I run out of unwillingness to do what was asked but also because living in a country that does that kind of thing is fundamentally unsafe.

I agree that what Snowden did was generally positive and important, but I also agree that he broke the law as written. If I were Snowden's lawyer I would argue exactly what you've argued-- that he acted to expose programs contrary to the US constitution and that therefore his security contract was not valid since a contract to engage in illegal activity is not enforceable. It's likely that the case would make it to the Supreme Court.

No nation is perfect and no system is perfect. I was responding to claims of moral equivalency between the USA and China. In the USA Snowden-like cases are rare. In China you have private citizens who have not signed secrecy oaths being arrested all the time for mere political activism.

> If I were ordered to do something that deeply immoral by the state I might pretend I was going to comply, but only long enough to pack a "go bag" and get myself and my family out of the country.

explain these to those killed in Vietnam or Iraq. Immoral? You mean paying your tax to fund those wars started purely based on a lie, e.g. WMD in Iraq? That is pretty immoral to me. oh, btw, last time when I checked, your tax is still being used to keep the Guantanamo Bay open, immoral or not?

First of all, exactly zero people pay taxes to fund the GWOT. When the wars started, taxes were lowered, not raised. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been funded by debt, not funded by taxes like they should have been.

Second, the whole "WMD is a lie" is largely a matter of semantics. Under federal law, any bomb is a WMD; any grenade is a WMD; any rocket with > 4oz propellant is a WMD; any missile with an explosive charge > 0.25oz is a WMD; any mine is a WMD; any large caliber firearm with a bore > 0.5" in diameter (except shotguns) is a WMD. Of course, chemical, pathogenic, and radioactive weapons are also considered WMDs. 18 U.S.C. §§ 2332a, 921(a)(4).

What evidence do you have that the Iraqi army under Saddam didn't possess grenades?

Certainly, a grenade isn't what most people thought President G. W. Bush meant. I won't dispute that there's a lot of spin involved.

But there's a big difference between spin and a lie.

> That's part of what "the rule of law" actually means. In a nation with the rule of law, the law applies objectively to everyone: crooks, politicians, and yes even do-gooders.


> the law applies objectively to everyone: crooks, politicians, and yes even do-gooders

You started by saying some entities are left unpunished. Then come to this conclusion.

Ironic you claim to stand up for dissent in China but so quickly insinuate 'propaganda' when it comes dissent here. Doesn't seem democratic.

Speaking of misbehavior Iraq, Libya and Syria have been destroyed, hundreds of thousands killed and the countries set back decades if not centuries on completely made up premises. This is not just misbehavior, these are crimes against humanity that are happening right now. Yet some seem more concerned about Tienanmen square.

The Chinese example you mention is more akin to Chelsea Manning and we all know how that worked out.

Please explain how Chelsea Manning is a more appropriate example.

GP is literally comparing EXACT same thing. Protest against the president at a popular location in each country. I fail to see how this is an unfair comparison.

I think you misread it.

>Go to Tiananmen Square and hold up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre.

Fine, make the poster say Deng Xiao Ping ordered the army to shoot the protestors at Tiananmen Square.

My point was when it comes to topics that matter there is little difference in the 2 powers.

Drawing this kind of lazy equivalence does not produce insight. The two powers have substantial differences that influence how you would deal with either.

I'm unclear what you're saying regarding Ms. Manning.

Though if you want to update my two examples to use a protest poster for/against her, I don't think the point changes.

Unless you mean that she faced legal consequences for her actions?

I think this is "whataboutism."

America's respect for individual liberty and the rule of law has eroded over the years, but it is still considerably stronger than what's found in China. You see some of the same corruption and autocratic tendencies on both sides of the Pacific but there is a substantial difference in degree and pervasiveness. We are not the best in the world (several EU countries are better) but claiming the USA is equivalent to the PRC just lowers the bar.

In China many of the kinds of open anti-state discussions that happen regularly here would get people arrested, not to mention criticism of leadership. Try talking openly about Xi Jinpeng the way lots of Americans talk about Donald Trump (or talked about Barack Obama). I was driving around Irvine, CA the other day and saw an anti-anti-immigration protest with signs comparing Trump to a chimpanzee and Hitler. Do that in China in an affluent section of Beijing. Dare you.

Edit: you can also buy Donald Trump Piñatas in Santa Ana, a heavily Hispanic area of LA/OC metro. Try selling a Xi Jinpeng piñata in Beijing.

Pointing out that America is just as bad would be a fair point (not whataboutism) because YC does so much business in America. So criticizing YC for dealing with a government just like America but is not America is not an invalid point. However I agree with others that China's tyranny is on a different level.

> America's respect for individual liberty and the rule of law has eroded over the years, but it is still considerably stronger than what's found in China.

individual liberty such as those mass shootings protected by the constitution?

if you do believe there is real democracy in your country, maybe you can talk to your democratically elected local representatives and make some _real changes_ in that aspect first? talk is cheap, show me your democracy.

A lot of people believe that private ownership of guns is an important individual right - a majority in some areas. This is democracy, even when it produces outcomes I disagree with.

yet the same people are jumping up and down lecturing Chinese about how bad is the CCP. I thought it is up to them to judge that.

China and the US have different histories. World affairs are not simplistic binaries of good and bad. Political systems take time to evolve. Western Europe evolved from feudalism over 300 years.

China has 1.3 billion people to take care of. This is not a joke. Let them manage and make the transition their way without sanctimonious judgement from others.

The USA is effectively two party state with both parties propping up oligarchies and special interests with a media who have long ceased to function as a free and independent press and have reduced themselves to mouthpieces for entrenched interests.

The ability to stand on a street and criticize your leader is not the only sign of democracy, the ability to effect change and have a government responsive to peoples needs is. Studies have shown and people can see how the US political establishment are far more responsive to special interests and the rich than the general public. So what is democracy?

Perhaps things are not simplistic or black and white, and continuing to affect a moral high ground inspite of alarming deterioration betrays not only a lack of fundamental concern for any articulated values but also its abuse as a mere political tool to beat others with without any context of global history and world affairs.

They need compete with www.sinovationventures.com.'Sinovation Ventures' has quite a few similarities to YC, for example:The founders like to support each other, etc

Kai Fu’s (famous for the ballmer chair) innovation works has been around forever, it’s not like China is lacking for YC-style tech incubators. However, they are all Chinese owned and managed without direct connections to SV.

There is HAX in Shenzhen, but it's focused on pre-crowdfunded consumer hardware projects. However, at their last building (they moved around 2016/2017) the space apparently interleaved the foreign cohort with a domestic intake they never talk about (to my knowledge) in foreign media. https://hax.co/

There are quite a few in Hong Kong as well. https://medium.com/whub/hong-kong-accelerator-and-incubator-...

This will fail so much. If you ever had anything to do with China you know there's no path in. Especially under Xi.

Even in the old lang sine, when China was (more) open to the West it was still hard. Think about getting serious stuff stolen, threatened by people with sticks etc. Then you sue someone and the judge simply decides in favor of the Chinese party, no matter what they did.

The only option I can see is if you have privately loads of money and then marry a strong business family in China. Then through your Chinese wife you can achieve something.

Think of it this way: eventually, China will figure out and dominate this market like any other they've tackled. So if you stay in the US, you're just delaying the inevitable. This way, you're in on it, you're buying favor in a sense - in the new world order, having an pre-existing relationship with the 900 pound gorilla might come in handy.

Okay interesting point of view. So you still fail but you fail earlier than the other western competitors and you might fail less. Can't say much against it.

> So you still fail

You do?

> Can't say much against it.

You could say it's a poor prediction and explain why. For example, it isn't exactly an inevitability, even though it seems fairly plausible.

I would assume YC has plenty of "wives" and "husbands" (read network connections) in China to vouch for them in front of CCP leaders.

Edit: Besides, regardless of connections, I think, the deal where YC provides easy U.S. market entry for Chinese startups for a share in the company is pretty attractive to both sides.

Yes, that's what they think if they offer that. And my additional point was that what westerners consider "network connections" you can't have with Chinese people if you are not of Chinese heritage nor married to a Chinese wife. Even if you are a woman and married to a Chinese husband it might not be enough, because he won't listen to you in business related issues. Also hiring Chinese consultants to take care of the relationship won't work, because when the fighting starts they will side at least secretly with the Chinese other party.

Also one needs to consider that culture is not just weird behavior. Through the back and forth of each appropriate reaction a Chinese person can achieve something with other Chinese people, despite him being also very frustrated with how the Chinese culture works. Because you don't know the intuitive right reaction you cannot get to that point where you can finally get some honest/valuable response. It can't be learned from a book. You need to grow up with this, because even the Chinese people don't really understand why it works.

> if you are not of Chinese heritage nor married to a Chinese wife

OK, I think you assume there is no case of Chinese men and non-Chinese women marriage, or same-gender marriage.

That appears rather subtle but offensive bias.

Just the next sentence goes like this:

> Even if you are a woman and married to a Chinese husband it might not be enough, because he won't listen to you in business related issues.

And yes, facts can be offensive. Doesn't make them less factual.

> That appears rather subtle but offensive bias.

Offensive bias in China is rarely subtle. Job applications regularly list age, sex and height requirements.

The tightly controlled national media aired a propaganda clip about Chinese-African relations that included a Chinese woman in blackface with enormous fake buttocks and an African wearing a monkey suit... during the most watched night of television... just months ago... and then suppressed criticism of it.

Will there be a livestream? Would be a great opportunity to try out instantaneous real-time audio and video translation in english, chinese and japanese ;)

Baidu Shows Off Its Instant Pocket Translator


Great timing! Right in line with our Series A. Happy to meet any HN'ers! Email in profile.

When will original online Startup School start this year? Who knows?

Are you talking about this? https://www.startupschool.org/

I don't understand if this is something online or not, it mentions attending group office hours.

It's all completely virtual. All "attendance" in the course is done online, including group office hours.

Yes, I was meaning that one.

The Startup School online course will start in August. We'll make an announcement soon!

Interesting... I'll be in Bejing these dates, I may stop in!

to any of the organizers... is it possible to attend to the talks even though I'm starting a company based off -at the moment- Vietnam?

Very exciting news!

I hope YC will help Chinese startups become global. My biggest problem with Silicon Valley is its ideological uniformity and the increasing willingness to use their companies/products as vehicles to push their ideologies.

China would be in an excellent position to address the part of the Western market that is increasingly alienated by this push. They can build SV tech clones for the local market, and then expand to the global market by offering ideologically more neutral (from Western perspective) alternatives to SV tech.

Chinese startups will have their own flaws, but at least we will have a choice.

    I hope YC will help Chinese startups become global.
Why would you want that? As long as the chinese goverment prevent foreign companies to buy chinese companies no one should be happy about chinese startups going global. The chinese goverment is highly corrupt and only supports actions which benefits the chinese. That's why there are so many "joint ventures".

I agree with the corrupt part, but it's interesting that you say "the chinese government...only supports actions which benefits the chinese" as if it's a horrible thing. Every government does what is best for their country... Being upset about it is like getting mad at fire for being hot.

I'm deeply confused what "ideological diversity" Chinese companies will offer. How much of the Western market is really pining for that autocratic, pro-censorship touch?

Sam Altman wrote in a blog post, "Earlier this year, I noticed something in China that really surprised me. I realized I felt more comfortable discussing controversial ideas in Beijing than in San Francisco. I didn’t feel completely comfortable—this was China, after all—just more comfortable than at home." [0]

This probably wasn't because China is inherently less censorious, but rather the set of controversial ideas in Beijing are different than the set of controversial ideas in San Francisco.

Thus Chinese companies can be biased in ways that are relevant to the Chinese market, but less likely to be biased in ways that are relevant to the Western market.

If SV companies are biased in a way that is relevant to the Western market, this can be an opportunity for the Chinese companies to provide a more neutral service.

[0] https://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove

Do you have to go all the way to Beijing for that? I feel like the root is more Silicon Valley monoculture than East vs. West.

>ideologically more neutral I hardly feel like the global market will accept Chinese alternatives as being "ideologically neutral" in any sense of the phrase.

What ideologies do you mean exactly?

Of all the provinces, why Beijing?

>Of all the provinces, why Beijing?

Because this guy lives there > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Xi_Jinpi...

Because Beijing is the best city in China. Shanghai is for people who don't like China.

By the way, never fuck with anyone with money in Shanghai. There is always somebody with more money than you. Never fuck with anyone with power in Bejing....


Thank you so much for displaying that YC has taken a step toward accepting China's desires to rule the world and a step away from supporting free and open cultural discourse. I think I'm going to be avoiding HN for a while, so that I can avoid the pro-Chinese propaganda and policy which is likely to result from this move.

New Pied Piper?

Hah that's what crossed my mind too :)


Why lol?

Not sure what the parent comment meant but maybe because software jobs will start to move to lower earning locations. I've been wondering about this. Manufacturing has largely moved off shore over the last 40 years but software seems much easier to move. Could the whole industry disappear from the first world at a much faster rate?

>Not sure what the parent comment meant but maybe because software jobs will start to move to lower earning locations. I've been wondering about this. Manufacturing has largely moved off shore over the last 40 years but software seems much easier to move. Could the whole industry disappear from the first world at a much faster rate?

Well, this has largely happened. And no, if you think that has happened 15 years ago, it isn't.

Outsourcing shops that do work for first tier dotcoms today are a head above anything you saw back 15 years ago with "will code for food" sweatshops.

What is happening is that these are not the "code for food" shops that are displacing Western workforce, but companies that genuinely do "real stuff" and pull high class projects better than their Western clients can even hope to do.

They get that not because they are cheaper, but because they are better than SV at large.

The reason why Western markets are not in firm grips of Asian IT giants yet, but in Facebook/Amazon/Google is not the influence of market forces. Otherwise, they would've been steamrolled long ago.

> Could the whole industry disappear from the first world at a much faster rate?

No. Because any country dominating the software industry will, almost by defintion, be “first world”.

That is not what first world means.

True. It means “white”. Which is why it’s largely gone out of fashion.

Not really.

In the days of the Cold War there was the “third world” as in “third party”, that is any country who wasn’t in either NATO or the Warsaw Pact. Later on people came to use “first world” to mean the West which would make the former Soviet countries the second world. And the third world is still... every other country.

I dont think an engineer in China is cheaper than in Europe. Thats not my experience.. At least in the big cities, they cost more or less the same as in Europe.

A Friend of mine owns a business and hired a guy in China full time. Works out to be ~40k usd/yr. His work is really good. If you’re going via a business to get outsourced work you’re just getting ripped off imo.

Depends on the work you want done.

Sure, I can get a student to throw together a React frontend here also for very little money. If I want highly specialized knowledge about camera drivers, network protocols or low level programming, the story is different.

We keep hearing this since late 1990s, when all programming was supposed to move to India. Not much change 20 years after.

When the engineers start earning more in tech oriented cities like Shenbu or Bongai where ever, the shops and landlord charging more, houses become more expensive, living costs rise, which makes engineers start demanding higher salaries, which then starts a feedback loop of rising prices. It's almost like people in developing countries are real people with similar behavioral patterns like people in the west..

"It's almost like people in developing countries are real people with similar behavioral patterns like people in the west.."

Really? .. I thought they are supposed to do the work for us, yet allways stay below our level, because thats the way things are supposed to be.

You jest but that is the sincerest belief of typical Western managers

"Feedback loop?" Where did you learn economics?

I didnt....

The above situation is definitely a shifting equilibrium rather than feedback loop. Like, everyone getting a 3% raise won't make the city unlivable overnight, it probably won't even increase cost of living by 3%

Eastern Europe are far cheaper to outsource to and that practice already happens for some UK businesses.

To people debating whether China are the good guys or not - hundreds of thousands Falun Dafa practicioners are locked up in Chinese concentration camps. Thousands have died of torture. Many more are suffering it everyday. China is ruled by a cruel evil regime. No question about it. You won't hear people involved with China talk about it. You won't be allowed into China if you do.

Please don't take HN threads into national/political flamewar. Regardless of how correct your atrocity assessments are, this is off topic and violates the site guidelines.

Others have been violating the guidelines in this thread too, but at least the other subthreads haven't gone completely out to the generic political sea.


Dang, they're not "my assesments". They're cold, hard, well-known facts relevant to the discussion. Almost all the comments are political. The standard HN policy on threads that go too political is to just nix the whole thing. You know it and I know it.

Even if that were true, the greater part of "assessment" is in selecting which "cold, hard, well-known facts" to mention, which not to mention, and what weighting to place on them. The facts don't tell you that. Humans make those choices, and there are infinitely many to choose from.

Your description of how we moderate HN isn't really accurate. When a story is nothing but partisan politics, we may kill the thread—though more often users flag it first—but those are just the easy cases. The difficult cases are when a story is both on topic for HN, like this one, but also has overlap into intensely political areas, like this one. Then our job becomes more fine-grained, trying to support thoughtful, specific discussion and dampen generic flamewars.

Mention what? What facts may one omit that justify this ongoing atrocity? Perhaps you're just ignorant about it. In which case it only goes to show that it's an interesting, relevant fact people should be aware of.

Yes, I imagine my comment might excite strong feelings more so than others - because such an atrocity does. For good reasons.

The discussion has clearly settled on the moral aspects of YC doing business in China. Which seems okay with you - as long as you don't call out the actual atrocities.

It's not off topic at all. YC is now literally working with the authoritarian dictatorship committing the above atrocities as well as committing more executions than any country on the planet. More than the rest of the top 10 combined. This is news.

As is the fact that you're suppressing comments on these atrocities, which are far more extreme and less frequently discussed here than very tired US political wedge issues you disable flags on. This behaviour is a gross abuse of power.

You and your fellow VCs will make a fortune in the next few years. But blood will be on your hands, and it will harder to live with than you imagine. You already realize it on some level, albeit a deeply buried one.


America has been making children afraid of blue skies with its murder drones for the past 15 years. If evil was an obstacle we wouldn’t be able to use American tech either.

I’m not a fan of China and I’m certainly weary of their government spying through their tech, but I’m not really a fan of the NSA being able to read my emails either.

Obviously America is the lesser evil, and it’s unfortunate that power is shifting to China, but maybe there will be some healthy lessons in American tech when you start to feel the abuse you’ve put your friends through. Probably not though.

How exactly are uninteded civil casualties in military operations comparable to systemic and deliberate jailing and killing of innocent people? This is very low grade whataboutism.

"uninteded civil casualties"

This is how Americans justify destroying three countries (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) and millions of lives.

>You won't be allowed into China if you do.

My understanding is that you have to just check your free speech at the door. For example my immpression is that specifically you, auganov, even if this profile is under your real name, would be allowed into China without any issue. (Despite what you've just written.)

The standard I've heard said is that "you wouldn't be able to stand in Tiananman square with a 'Free Tibet' sign". To those of us in the free world, that's a ridiculously stifling standard. You can stand in Washington or Times Square with a sign reading whatever you want, 'it's a free country'. China, obviously, isn't. You can't use the standard "hey, it's a free country" because it's not.

But this does not extend to your speech outside of China. Trying to bring your free speech into China seems (to me), on a practical level, like trying to bring your heroin, cocaine, and guns in your carry-on to America. Can't do that (and there would be serious consequences.)

But that doesn't mean you can't have ever touched a gun, cocaine, or heroin in your life, it's not retroactive. To prove my case, let me say that Taiwan is an independent country, Tibet doesn't belong to China, and, hmmmm what else don't they like. Oh Xi is a dictator for wanting to be President for life.

I wouldn't ever say any of those things if I'm in China, even in English, even on an international forum, because I would have checked my free speech at the border. On a practical level state oppression is a huge private business. When you're in China you're not free, even in your mundane online speech, such as in private messages in wechat. People pay attention to watching what they say, on an everyday level.

But to return to my point, it doesn't mean you wouldn't be allowed in China if you expressed your thoughts previously in the free world.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I've heard an exception for journalists, in the sense that their previous speech is examined more closely, but I don't know if they're refused entry or just watched more closely once there.

False. Examples: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42053790 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/australian-cri...

Be notable or persistent enough and it'll get you banned.

Both of the articles references say "You should know"

The Katy Perry article says there was no official reason given or confirmation but:

>But the Global Times, a state-run tabloid, chimed in, saying that if it was true "they had brought it on themselves".

It further references that Katy Perry wore a flower dress, an Anti-China symbol, while giving a concert in Taiwan, and that she "draped Taiwan's flag at the concert. It caused a backlash in China, with many accusing her of supporting Taiwanese independence."

This kind of counts as activist activity and most importantly it did not happen abroad, but in China or Taiwan.

The second article says:

>“I asked them, ‘What’s the reason?’,” Hugh said. “Their answer was pretty diplomatic, they said, ‘You should know’.”

and it says:

>Hugh is the head of the Australian Values Alliance, a loose coalition of Chinese-Australians who promote “democracy and freedom” and are critical of Beijing’s policies. Last week he was prominently involved in the Sydney book launch of Prof Clive Hamilton’s book Silent Invasion: China’s Influence in Australia, which details covert, state-sponsored or co-ordinated operations to exert Chinese Communist party influence in Australia.

You might have missed an edit I made to my reply to you within a couple of minutes of when I wrote it, in which I remembered that people engaged in public or journalistic type things are held to a different standard (more likely to be refused entry.)

So as far as I personally am concerned, I think if I did something with a lot of visibility I would have to watch what I say and do, especially if I was literally doing something that would be considered activism.

Do you think I should edit my original reply to you to remove the sentence "But that doesn't mean you can't have ever touched a gun, cocaine, or heroin in your life, it's not retroactive. To prove my case, let me say that Taiwan is an independent country, Tibet doesn't belong to China, and, hmmmm what else don't they like. Oh Xi is a dictator for wanting to be President for life."? Will this off-hand remark which has next to no audience, and made outside of China, cause me to be refused a visa in the future for no real reason?

I am talking about a practical level here. I've gotten feedback from a lot of people since obviously this is a different standard than I'm used to living in the free world.

I'd remove the part of my comment I just quoted if it'll get me banned from entering China. (I don't think it would.) What do you think?

No, I don't think that China is an omnipotent censor that's going to ban you for an odd comment on HN. In the same way you can be gay, go to the most vile anti-LGBT places in the world and have a blast. Who cares? The point of criticism is you want to get heard.

Thanks. (I don't want to address the analogy you just made because this thread is already very political without expanding its breadth.)

I appreciate the response and opinion.

Out of all places? Why???


>Saturday, May 19, 2018 (5 月19 日,周六) >Tsinghua University (清华大学) Beijing, China (中国北京)

This is just... they could've just went for the central committee party school if they wanted to get high profile handshakes that much

>Out of all places? Why???

"Since China is the fastest growing tech ecosystem in the world and a massive center of new innovations - we want to meet more founders from China!"

How does this square with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16918480 ?

BTW, that's a link to a discussion of the NYTimes article "Wanted at Chinese Startups: Attractive Women to Ease Coders’ Stress".

Likewise, isn't Hollywood the place with Harvey Weinstein? Must be purely evil.

No, China is big and intellectually diverse. Many young idealists who deserve to be catalyzed. Source: Lived there 2011-2016.

Most people commenting on these China posts have a superficial, at best, understanding of China.

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