This might be interesting if there’s no long-term commitment. While leasing and financing would obviously be much cheaper, those involve three to five year terms. If I could pay $3000/month and drive a 911 for a summer I might be very tempted to do that.
You're forgetting the 3k includes maintenance (fluid, brake pad and tire replacement are of particular note here, if we're comparing it to cost of ownership in the first 3 years) and insurance, both of which can be significant on a sports car.
Although if I were in the position to decide between using this service and purchasing (I can dream, can't I?), I would purchase the vehicle (well actually I would buy a Dodge Demon, still dreaming here).
Check out Fair.com also; Los Angeles only right now but also offers no-term flexibility. There is a 'start payment' but all said and done, Fair may be cheaper than this depending on how long you keep the car.
Turo is a short term car rental marketplace. Fair is a flexible "long-term" car leasing service. They have two different business models and are serving two different problems.
Ostensibly true but what you wrote glosses over all of the interesting details because the services are not that black and white. I'm more interested in the areas where they overlap — the gray area between renting and leasing. Use cases like getting a car for a few days per month or just a month or two, where services like Zipcar are also competitors. Fair's marketing claims "pay as you go, walk away at any time" in the App Store description which suggests to me it is possible to "own" a car off Fair for a month or two.
You're correct, @tedmiston. With Fair, you can return your car anytime (with a 5 day notice). So, you could keep the car for 1mo, 7 weeks etc. Fair will pro-rate the last month. Fair probably doesn't make sense for folks who just need a car for a few days. Happy to field more questions here (or email me: username @fair.com)
By the way, with my referral code (SHAANR100) you can save $1,000 off the start payment until 10/31/17.
Volvo is starting something similar (Care By Volvo). However, that looks and smell like a leasing rebranded and slightly streamlined than what you are thinking of.
Volvo is a 2 year contract, no option to buy and also no option to customise the vehicle. The price is in the same ballpark than a lease. Volvo throws in: insurance and tax all included (less common in personal lease in Europe) and for like 10 days a year, the possibility to loan a different, larger Volvo.
I'll refrain being overly skeptical, Uber is just a taxi app streamlined and rebranded, but that makes all the difference. Buying a car, or worse, leasing one is not exactly streamlined, there is definitively some streamlining value in there somewhere.
Also I guess that is just the beginning - I guess if they could push the commitment down to 1 year (or 2 years with possibility to switch to a different car every year) that could become interesting.
You can always customize the vehicle, you're just required to return it to its original state. Obviously this means no racing wings that require drilling into the trunk, but you can add a roof rack if you've got the spring mounts in the roof for it, you can wrap the car or swap out OEM tiers/lighting, etc to your heart's content.
Sorry, by customising I meant change the option list - eg: it comes with rear camera, but you want to add 360 camera instead. Even the colour of the car is set to "black" only and only the base trim is available.
To be fair, the information currently available is more marketing level than practical. Right now it seems they are closer to long term rental than an easy lease. This thread is filled with alternative services that on paper look much better, so we really have to see what Volvo end up to do in practice to compete.
Clutch, mentioned in the article as the company behind the subscription, is interesting in their own right. http://www.clutchatlanta.com/ It's a car subscription where you can trade your car out for another type. Insurance is included, so it's a flexible alternative to buying.
A bit pricy, though. So really only an alternative to buying new.
It appears that the way Clutch works is that a dealer group can basically act as the Clutch "franchise" for a metro area. Here in NC the local luxury dealer group runs the service and sets their own pricing and cars available. It's one of those services that seems so awesome but the pricing is just "too high" enough that you put your credit card in repeatedly but never click submit.
Can't wait for the price to drop by ~30% (which might not happen since it seems that each metro has an exclusive dealer for Clutch - no competition)
Cool service but it ends up being like 2x the price of leasing. For comparison, I've leased two Porsches through PFS in the past and the all-in monthly payment (incl tax/insurance) was around $1500/mo for a 911 C4S (36 month) and $900/mo for a Cayman (24 month).
And for the $2000/mo subscription, it doesn't seem like you even get access to the 911.
So twice the cost for the 22 car package, vs. your lease, but with the ability to traverse the catalog of cars depending on your particular needs at a given time.
Expensive, sure, but we’re talking about consumers that most likely view a $1500/month lease as a semi- or fully reasonable monthly expense.
I am super surprised that a 911 is that cheap to lease. Was it used?
I think a service that charged $3k/month for any luxury vehicle, all maintenance included, with no contract, including electric vehicles, would be super clutch. It is MUCH more expensive to rent luxury cars on a per day basis, and having an extended test drive really helps when deciding whether to buy a vehicle. If I wanted to buy a car like this, I’d love to have one for a month or two to break it in, no strings attached.
Lease offers are regional (down to the county level sometimes) and can easily swap a lease payment by hundreds of dollars, especially on something like a 911. Lease offers also change monthly. It's nearly impossible to know if a given number is reasonable for a lease. One person can lease something on December 1 for $1k a month and it can be available for $600/mo a month later.
In California, so no upfront sales tax on lease, but ~$100/mo of the payment goes to sales tax. Total payment w/ tax is around $1150.
Rough numbers: 2016 Heavily optioned C4S Manual- MRSP $125K, negotiated down to $105. Residual is like $75K for C4S w/ Manual. 3 years, 10K miles a year. The Money factor is whatever the lowest PFS was at the time (you can look it up on forums and just demand the base rate).
Was the 24-month lease for the Cayman cheaper than 36? I've got about 25 months left on my BMW but am seriously considering a Porsche next if I continue leasing. I would have loved to do a 24-month lease for the BMW but it was more than 30% more expensive.
I like driving nice cars and don't mind spending the money so 24 months seems to be the sweet spot personally, but it's hard to justify it when 36 months is a lot cheaper most of the time.
I'd absolutely go for this. I spend about 2-3 months a year in the US and like to drive nice cars. Having not just one new porsche to drive while i'm there, but an entire fleet of them is amazing. Want to go out hiking? Grab an SUV model. Have a hot date Friday night? Grab a convertible 911. Insurance already included? Yes please. And knowing porsche and their customers, these won't be absolutely trashed like rental cars.
> And knowing porsche and their customers, these won't be absolutely trashed like rental cars.
Not sure about that last one. I know about Porsche drivers taking care of their cars as well, but it’s when the cars are owned by them. That wouldn’t apply here so you’ll get people driving them harder than their own vehicles.
And that's why I don't think this program will last, at least for the high-end models. Unless maybe, Porsche is planning to use their Atlanta test track (near ATL airport, fyi) to require "Porsche driver ed" before you get the privilege of renting one of their high end models. That would make more sense and give them a lot more cover reputation-wise when there are accidents or deaths.
The liability to 3rd parties killed by these drivers is pretty enormous. Maybe Clutch is insulating Porsche itself from this, but you have to imagine a trial judge being pretty sympathetic to a claim against Porsche itself if a third party is killed by one of these renters. Under a theory of reckless endangerment of sorts by putting a dangerous instrument in the hands of an unqualified driver.
The program just creates a much stronger tie back to Porsche than a purchase or lease of one of their vehicles.
I am not the target age but I am touring Europe next year. This interests me.
Edit: I see I wasn't clear enough. It interests me because it may catch on or be available in other areas, should it be a success. Tooling through Europe in varied Porsches, each optimized for different reasons, would be a great vacation. Easily being able to do this would interest me. Thus, this interests me in that I hope it catches on.
Right, and Porsches don't even lease very well compared to other brands. One thing I wonder if there's no mileage restrictions it could be worth it (as going over miles on a lease can be expensive).
i drive it less than 5000 miles a year. insurance rates aren't determined by how much you drive a car, that's just meta-information the ins. co's collect. theft, crashes, and zip code (for full coverage) are far more important.
> Cool service but it ends up being like 2x the price of leasing.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Your $1500/month (from the past, different year, packages, car) lease payment is an obligation that requires a 24/36/48 month commitment.
> Porsche is looking for a way to reach younger consumers whose shopping and transportation habits have been shaped by Silicon Valley giants like Uber Technologies...
Apparently no one told them that these new consumers are broke as a joke also.
You could easily lease two including insurance, registration, and maintenance.
I don't think the added flexibility of being able to swap your 718 for a Cayenne when you need to haul furniture (or have more than two people) is worth it.
It’s not clear that’s true. Leases don’t typically cover other costs like insurance. Also this seems like it might not have the 2 to 3 year long commitments, which can really really drive down the apparent, if not actual cost of a lease.
The linked page puts leasing a 718 Boxster at ~$1400 a month on a 24 month lease. There is no way that the additional taxes, title, license, insurance and maintenance will cost more than $600 a month.
Yes, there is a long-term commitment, but you can get a a lot of car for $2000 a month, all-in.
So it would be cheaper to lease a boxster as the primary vehicle, and, when you need one, just rent a truck over a weekend or whatever.
The commitment makes a big difference in the price. Want a 718 with a 30 year lease? If it existed the payment could be quite low.
Porsche maintenance is also much more expensive than Toyota maintenance, to say the least. Even stuff you don’t do at the dealer, like tires, most people don’t want cheap tires on those cars.
I can’t say for sure how good of a deal it is or not, it would take some calculation and research, I just know it can’t be dismissed without a closer look. There is value in short term, all inclusive subscription plans, it’s just a question of what the real premium nets out to be, and the market demand to pay that premium.
Is the target market people with newly disposable income but destroyed/nonexistent credit? Could explain the "millenial" target, if you ran up a bunch of credit cards in college but have a software job now, go ahead and "subscribe" to a car for 2x the price of a lease! Then when it gets repo'd for nonpayment you're not defaulting on your lease, you're just lapsing your subscription!
Insurance on these cars would cost a small fortune as well, as would replacing the tires, also maintenance because it has that special, not a v6 or inline-6, but flat 6 engine design, so gotta go to a special shop.
I pay just under $100/mo to insure a 1 of 724 (in the US) Boxster Spyder for 7,000 miles a year. For comparison, my 10-year old Mazda Miata ran me $62/mo with identical coverage, and was worth about 10% as much. However, unlike the Miata, I have declared value insurance because the car is worth 15% more than when it was new. Miata had typical depreciation insurance.
Tires more expensive? Yes, because they're bigger. ~$1500/set versus $1000/set (shipped, mounted and balanced) for the Miata, and the rears wear out about twice as fast.
Maintenance? If I went to a dealer for service, labor rate is 24% higher compared to a local Mazda dealer. I instead go to one of the best Porsche independents in the US and he's about 12% more than a local Mazda dealership, and he has way cooler stuff in his garage (last time I went, three 959s, a one-of-17 TechArt CTR3, and other craziness). Though still lots I can do myself.
Parts? I did a full brake job recently, and it cost ~10% more than something like a Subaru WRX STi. I actually used uprated brake fluid (which was +$20 over OEM), though everything else was OEM.
The only major long-term expense is engine rebuilds. Figure 25-30% more than rebuilding a mainstream V8 like a Toyota 1UR/3UR, Ford Coyote or Chevy small block. Though that's usually every 15-25 years (depending on engine hours at high RPM), so that's something you just sock money away for well in advance.
Insurance can be weird. For a while I was paying less for insurance on my 2008 Dodge Viper than I was on my 2001 Ford Mustang GT. It's all risk tables.
Insurance rates are all determined categorically. Mustangs have a higher “accident rate” because they’re cheap and fast and young people with lower incomes, who are also most likely irresponsible, buy them and crash them.
Vipers aren’t exactly in the same group. It’s not performance based, just statistics.
Have you priced out a Porsche? Not the "stock" model, the one you would really buy/lease. For every starting pricing on a Porsche in the configurator add 30K-50K by the time you are done. I own 2. Love them. Best cars every. Fun to drive and they do not try to kill you (well most of them). I cannot wait for the Mission-E to hit. Its my next car.
Don’t forget this includes insurance, mechanical work, registration, detailing when switching between cars. It also lets you use an SUV for a trip, a sports car for a date, or the sedan as needed. Flexibility always costs more. Hard-coded (single car) vs Configurable (multi-car)… what’s easier?
Some people might be willing to burn money today, but unwilling to commit to payments a year ahead. I think anything between moderate success and exactly zero customers is a possible outcome.
That'd be really nice for me. I live in the city and drive infrequently. My garage pass costs $100/month just to park anyway. If there was some sort of on-demand delivery it would be great.
The best entry level porsche is second hand. I got my first porsche like that. It had porsche warranty for 2 years and it costed 2/3 of the retail price. I love every moment driving it. The best part of owning a porsche is the sentimental value and the experience. Here you drop one, and only get the experience. I wonder how that will play out.
Completely agree. Plus, after initial depreciation, 911s hold their value pretty well (particularly the 1999-2004 996 models). I view a used Porsche (as compared to new) as "90% of the fun for 50% the cost".
The 996 turbo is currently an awesome deal. The regular ones are a good deal but one needs to check up on the service history.
Weird tidbit: I once put a 993 engine into a 996 rwd chassis and fit very well. The old 993 mount fit rather well and only needed some modifications to work. The engine had a 930 tranny bolted on (g50) and it fit perfectly as well. Of onlt that car were finished some day...
I bought mine through a mechanic/dealer, and had them fix the IMS bearing, rear main seals, chain tensioners, and switch to a metal water pump. Those were the main recommended preventative fixes I heard about.
Yes, you are right. Given how cheap they are right now some people get sticker shock when they learn a replacement will cost around $10k. That sometimes is more than half the cost of the whole car.
I've seen most prices for replacement significantly lower than $10k - usually closer to $2-3k (https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996/241595-ims-bearing-m...). Plus there are a few other things that are easy to do at the same time (like rear main seals).
