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Why it may be illegal for Google to punish that engineer over his now viral memo (cnbc.com)
73 points by SirLJ on Aug 8, 2017 | hide | past | favorite | 95 comments



The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group." Wow, what a monster.

The reaction to the memo is really the most damning thing about the whole affair. Everyone is just rushing to virtue signal, to demonstrate their own purity of thought. They've just proved the author's point.

A particular brand of liberalism has reached the point of being a religion, and the establishment is running an inquisition against any who dare to question its points of dogma.


I got people in my circle that seriously called for him to be fired. People I know as being intelligent, even a university professor. Either those people are more warped than I have ever known, and you are right about the dogma. Or they did not read the memo.

It is really shocking to see the misrepresentation of the intent of the memo. I normally stay out of discussion about those topics, it's too dangerous - but that development is just unacceptable.


Ugh, I did the same thing. Similar results.

This is something I feel that he genuinely wanted to discuss and was open to changing his opinion given that his assumptions/research was challenged. This unfortunately didn't happen.


It's very simple: if you believe that others' fitness or qualification for their jobs, based on flimsy (at best) evo-psych arguments, is a topic that you can legitimately put forward for public debate and discussion, then I believe your fitness or qualification for your job, based on whatever I pull out of my ass, is a topic that can legitimately be put forward for public debate and discussion.

In other words: don't dish it out if you can't take it.


I think the spirit of the memo even in that section is perfectly acceptable.

> Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions.

It is also not an extremist position to take, it's the scientific consensus. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw for an example stating the same thing with almost the same words. And that's not coming from someone unqualified.


The "scientific consensus" is that women are inherently genetically hard-coded to not be as good at or interested in computer programming?

Because... no. Nobody's demonstrated that. What people have demonstrated are small average differences in performance on certain kinds of test tasks, and then Google dude and you decide that's "scientific consensus" for whatever conclusions you'd like to draw from it.


> The "scientific consensus" is that women are inherently genetically hard-coded to not be as good at or interested in computer programming?

I did not say that, did I? The scientific consensus is that there are biological differences that have an influence on job fit and job choices. But we are talking statistics here, there are always people from the other sex that are a good fit for a specific work.

Did you watch the video I linked? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw . Really, watch it.

Also, the Google memo explicitly did not say that women should not be coders. If you think that, this is the warped media representation of the memo you are talking about, not its actual content.


Also, the Google memo explicitly did not say that women should not be coders.

Sure. The author just wrote it as a purely informative note about biology and genetics, and intended it to have absolutely no relationship to hiring or evaluation in any way, shape or form.

Hint: people don't write up this kind of thing if they think it shouldn't affect hiring and evaluation.


I know it is bad style, but I still have to sincerely doubt that you actually read the memo. The author explicitly states what his goals were (a change in which pro-diversity methods to apply, end of positive discrimination, being aware that 50-50 is an unreasonable goal if biological differences exist, focusing on what is right for google instead of what gender ideology dictates, which includes raising diversity though, because that's good for google). I'll end this discussion here, you are either unwilling to read or unwilling to understand the memo, as well as the video I linked.


It is terrible style for you and Googlebro to keep asserting a 50/50 quota that nobody else ever said was the goal while insisting that it's your critics who are misrepresenting what was said.

It is also terrible style to be so bad at math as to claim or imply that the tiny observed differences on skills tests would produce the gigantic skew in gender ratio we observe. But hey, just piling up more evidence that he was unqualified for the job anyway, and should be replaced by someone with icky girlskills like, you know, actually being able to research something and think critically about it.


"The reaction to the memo is really the most damning thing about the whole affair."

I found that aspect troubling too. This isn't a subject I know much about, so I was hoping for more balanced debate from both sides. Instead what we got was internet lynching and grandstanding.


In fairness to the internet lynchers -- the distinction between modern day Nazi's and the prose in that memo are pretty subtle. No one is stupid enough to come right out and say that they hate women in the workplace, yet I've worked with people who have told me that before -- yet their public persona looks just like this authors.

While you may be legally required to give him the benefit of the doubt -- any person who works with him that gives him that same benefit is probably naïve.


Modern day Nazi's may use biological differences as a sort of ideological fuel to further their despicable cause, but to lay that sort of intention behind the memo author is also despicable. The nazis should not be able to deter a society from looking at science from an objective viewpoint, that is something everyone would suffer from.


Let's be clear. He isn't doing science. I support research done in a scientific way, but he is cherry picking research to further a political agenda in the workplace. To act like this is science is despicable.


As far as I have understood, his main problem with Google is exactly as you describe him. He feels like Google is actively furthering a political agenda, namely the left one, and does not allow any dissidents or diversity of viewpoints. He explictly states that he is not against diversity, and that he is open to criticism and debate of the arguments he presented.

As for the cherry picking; remember that he is trying to make a point here, namely that biological differences might play a role over aggregated statistical differences, and that this might be one of the reasons we don't see the 50/50 split, and that ignoring this might be counter productive for everyone. Is the biological studies he have presented cherry picked? I'm sure you have seen the Quillette article [1], and the scientists quoted there does not seem to think so.

[1] http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-....


In many regards he is correct about the left vs right, but I think he misses the broader historical context. Allowing blacks to attend the same schools as whites is also a left v right argument. As is adults dating children. We, as a society, have come up on different sides of the ideological spectrum for each.

And while biology may account for some of the gap, it almost seems obvious that it doesn't account for all of it. And this is just looking at gains women have made economically in the past 30 years.

I don't think most reasonable people at google think there are no bio diffs, but rather that we are still far enough from the point where we have exhausted other causes. Simply pointing out thst bio diffs exist, while effectively trying to use that to shut down other approaches of giving equal opportunity is purely a political and not science based position. Unless he has some much stronger science results he has not yet shared.


What are these well known and scientifically-established differences in the distribution of traits between men and women?

The research linked in the the document are based on The Big Five Personality Traits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

These traits are measured with self-report surveys. I.e. personality quizzes. Not to malign the field of psychology, but this isn't the gold standard of science, IMHO.

Having read Mr. Damore's document, I can find very little in it of substance. It deals with politics and gender in only the very broadest of terms. It does not delve deeply into the scientific issues at hand, instead sprinkling his platitudes with wikipedia links to give them weight.

That being said, I completely agree that the US's nasty brand of liberalism is in a sad state. Our response to this manifesto should have been a cold critique of its many flaws, not the blind hysteria we've apparently opted for instead.


  These traits are measured with self-report surveys. I.e.
  personality quizzes. Not to malign the field of psychology,
  but this isn't the gold standard of science, IMHO.
These kinds of flaws permeate every study about discrimination. It's a field of study intrinsically fraught with issues, especially when you move beyond situations of direct discrimination.

In any event, let's not forget that sexism isn't merely something that men foist upon women; it's a culture that can be internalized and perpetuated by women, too. Which means that it's easily possible (and almost certainly likely to some extent) that wealthier, more egalitarian societies exhibit more exaggerated gender roles precisely _because_ women, in being able to self-segregate more broadly, are thus empowered to perpetuate culturally defined gender preferences into far reaching corners of society.

There was a great article recently about a woman who intentionally wore flowery dresses to the office as an expression of her femininity, in purposeful contravention of what she saw as a culture which forced women to unnecessarily and unfairly adopt more masculine expressions. I think it's fair to say that we'll always have a notion of femininity, and that most women would want it that way. Men may have forced dresses upon women at some point, but in our modern culture, at least for the time being, a dress is one marker of a certain kind of femininity that many women feel is empowering. For the past couple of decades, many feminists in particular have been at the forefront of re-introducing these sorts of social signals. This has been partly driven by the way that many men have responded to diversification--by spitefully demanding that all gender markers be erased (usually in favor of the default masculine model), after years of enforcing those gender distinctions to secure their dominance.

You can see how this interplay can become extremely complex. What happens when certain jobs are considered by many women to be too masculine, while at the same time a preference for overt femininity is on the rise (in a mostly positive way) among women? We can still easily trace the phenomenon to its origins in cut-and-dry sex discrimination within an oppressive, male-dominated society. Yet at the same time it's been co-opted--intentionally and unintentionally--by many women and become intrinsic to their sense of autonomy and self-expression. On the one hand that arguably makes those women complicit in sex discrimination; on the other hand trying to directly change those preferences can be (nay, is intrinsically) just as discriminatory.

Now try to untangle that from whatever innate predispositions we have. It's intractable.

The unspeakable truth here is that we have no good way of knowing the precise _extent_ to which hiring practices or work environments are quantitively and qualitatively sexist in the sense of being hostile to women. Some aspects of discrimination are effectively unmeasurable and perhaps even unknowable because there's no simple delineation between classes of perpetrators and victims. I don't think many people doubt that sexism exists, notwithstanding some rabid anti-feminist groups. The issue is 1) defining the problem and 2) finding solutions. But we'll never be able to satisfactorily define #1, and therefore #2 will always rest on some amount of speculation.

What the author of the Google memo fails to realize--and what many smart leaders understand is unspeakable--is that affirmative action programs are, on some level, _intentionally_ designed to cope with complicity of the discriminated group. When push comes to shove, I think most thoughtful people agree that there's a strong element of self-selection driven by incredibly complex social dynamics. At some level there's a calculated judgment that says the way to address self-segregation is to _engineer_ a situation where there are more women in a role than there might otherwise be given some perfectly meritocratic environment.

That judgment is almost certainly wrong. But there is no right answer. Discrimination, in all is forms, is a legacy that will never be extinguished; at least not anytime soon. It will reverberate for countless generations, tainting all our choices. And in as much as there's an innate tendency to discriminate, there'll never be a right answer.

IMO, whether you agree or disagree with affirmative action, there has to be a tolerance for solutions which might overshoot the mark relative to some platonic ideal, especially if you're a member of a privileged group. It's not feasible to address sexism without accepting that some men are going to be discriminated against. Likewise for racism. It forces a contradiction that America has been wrestling with since its founding. There's no having our cake and eating it, too. It's difficult to discuss these things in a completely open and honest manner because there's literally no way to resolve the conflict between American notions of egalitarianism and meritocracy. To do so forces you to recognize that both concepts are deeply flawed, and not many people are prepared to do that.


It's a vast overstatement to say even most of the claims are "well-known and mostly scientifically-established". Honestly, most of the claims are purely asserted. Some consist of wikipedia links or links to random single pieces of research. Those are far cries from the standard you set out.

I agree the author should not have their arguments misrepresented. But this applies in both directions.


Did he actually cite any scientific literature? I would be interested in reading them.

If not, then they are just intelligently dressed up assumptions.


Yes, it had lots of citations. Gizmodo stripped out all the links when it posted it, though, because insane shouting matches are more profitable to Gizmodo than discussion.


> Everyone is just rushing to virtue signal, to demonstrate their own purity of thought. They've just proved the author's point.

Can you support this beyond being your own judgemental assumption? Assuming everyone that disagrees with you is acting in bad faith isn't reasonable.


It is my social commentary, based on the fact-free and argument-free disavowals of the author's memo, not as wrong but as morally intolerable.

CNN.com's headline article yesterday was something about him having said "women are biologically unfit for technology jobs" which is a malicious and willful misreading meant to give basis for the moral panic around the memo.


I read his memo (There is a copy on Gizmodo) and while I saw a lot of what I could educatedly guess looked like flaws in logic or even flaws in his reading of the research I've been unable to find someone who has put the effort in to debunk it thoroughly.

Rather all I've been able to find is the equivalent of how dare he say these things.

Does anyone have a link to a good debunking of the whole thesis?


> Rather all I've been able to find is the equivalent of how dare he say these things.

I completely agree. The original memo may be wrong, but it was a cogently and constructively stated position (if a bit thin on references) and it deserves to be at worst ignored, more likely respectfully rebutted, and (dare I even say this?) perhaps taken seriously. Because I think one of the reasons people are so up in arms about it is that they are afraid that if they start to try to rebut the argument they will find that it is not so easy to do, and possibly even that parts of the argument might even be correct.


> a bit thin on references

I've seen mentions of the fact that the Gizmodo version removed most of the links/references/graphs that were included in the original.


The original is here:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

At least I'm pretty sure that is the original. It has the author's name on it.


Wow, you're right, per the lisper link. That is extremely shady of Gizmodo.


Sigh, it wasn't gizmodo being shady, it's just there's multiple leaked versions and some of the leakers only supplied html/text.


"The text of the post is reproduced in full below, with some minor formatting modifications. Two charts and several hyperlinks are also omitted."

Per the article itself.


Oh dear. If that's the case then I'm very confused.


That what, Gizmodo might mislead people for clicks?


There are a few, and I'd suggest you look further, for starters scroll up here: https://twitter.com/GlennF. Arguments about gender differences in CS should address the large decline in women's participation around 1984, the relatively better gender balance in other engineering/science majors, or the better gender balance for CS degrees granted in other countries.

Annie Lowrey and others argued institutional effects far outweigh biological or IQ effects; basically, there's a much larger environment of harassment and bias, and Google has so many other levers in its control that the arguments advanced in the paper aren't really salient or important to the situation at Google.

Other folks have argued the vast majority of engineers at Google are doing the equivalent of string concatenation; it's not exactly a difficult or demanding job.

I think one reason people have been so angry about this is that women in the tech industry generally deal with much more harassment and bias than men do, see for example elephantinthevalley.com. To argue these are the biggest issues requires looking past everything in that survey, and implicitly declaring it not that important or salient. Imagine going to Flint, Michigan and arguing that a lack of charter schools are the community's biggest problem; you're going to get some bad reactions.

People also tend not to like it when you suggest they're dumb or inferior.


I think it is telling that the only actual reference you provided was to a live Twitter feed. Twitter is not the right venue for any kind of substantive debate about anything, let alone one where the opening salvo is a ten-page document.


Twitter is an excellent venue for discussion. It's one thing to complain that you don't like it, and another to pretend it's widely agreed upon as an invalid source.


> Twitter is an excellent venue for discussion.

I didn't say it wasn't. Is said it was a bad venue for substantive debate. It's a fine venue for banal chitchat and voicing unsubstantiated opinions, which is what makes it so popular because that's a lot easier and more fun than actually diving into the depths of an issue.


I like it because it essentially forces "If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter" — I've read more than enough "limitless" threads of utter rubbish, longer garbage is still garbage. There are positives and negatives of every platform.


Absurd. It's a fantastic venue for substantive debate, technical political and mediatic. You're speaking confidently about something you're ignorant about.


Can you supply examples?

Twitter, by virtue of being Twitter, is not a good medium for substantive debate. The forum is the most populated one in the entire world. It is amazing for equalizing influence and allowing democratic propagation of information (which would otherwise be under the control of media firms), but this also means the bar for voicing one's opinion is in the Mariana's Trench. Anyone can butt in an derail the debate.

Twitter moderation is also very clearly biased in one direction (if you were to simply compare how often each side's individual account's are banned) and thus not an open medium where those debating can speak freely without consequence.

There's also the greater scheme of digital communications which are notorious for not being in anyway productive.

Debate online just simply does not work with the way human communication biologically evolved.


This guy takes a crack at exactly what you propose. The factors you mention do not undermine the manifesto's thesis. https://nintil.com/2017/08/07/why-so-few-women-in-cs-the-goo...


the large decline in women's participation around 1984

From what I've seen, that's a decline in the proportion of women enrolled in CS, not a decline in the absolute number. So this could be adequately explained by men crowding into CS rather than women fleeing. Do you have the numbers to show otherwise?


That's not the argument made by the author, however, his argument is the gender imbalance is not concerning because women have, on average, smaller brains and lower IQ's.


> his argument is the gender imbalance is not concerning because women have, on average, smaller brains and lower IQ's.

Where does he say that? Or are you trying to be sarcastic?


> ... the vast majority of engineers at Google are doing the equivalent of string concatenation ...

wait, what? is that even remotely true? that sounds unbelievable on its face.


String concatenation is slightly facile, but in the sense that most people are writing web servers, which are largely just composing templates, and not, e.g. Working on the distributed lock service.


I don't know that there's a debunking of the thesis, because there's nothing very original in there -- it's repeats and retreads of other things that have been debunked over and over, so it all merges into a mashed up mess of points and rebuttals like a badly maintained wiki.

There are a couple of books which I can recommend that talk about why you see so few women in computing (as opposed to biology, math, etc) and also why you see so few black men and women:

    * Unlocking the Clubhouse: http://a.co/8oXDROX
    * Stuck in the Shallow End: http://a.co/9HXgvKW
These are not only well written, but they're also well researched and well thought out. They're worth reading on their own merits, but you may find them a useful debunking to the memo.


TBH I'm not really interested in the wider issue at all. For starters I'm not even in America and we have our own issues here.

But this memo has dominated a lot of the internet that I use and figured surely someone has done the work to pull it apart.

I'm not going to read two books just to figure out some google guy's 10 page memo - call me lazy but perhaps nobody is going to read two books just for that purpose.


> I'm not going to read two books just to figure out some google guy's 10 page memo - call me lazy but perhaps nobody is going to read two books just for that purpose.

Well, if it's any consolation, I wouldn't read it for that either. The blog posts and memos do accumulate, though, and at some point it's worth it just to have the sources to refer back to.


Good point.


Also, the larger problem with debunking is that it just doesn't work all that well. It's like arguing with an antivaxxer -- they may ask for logical discussion but it has no effect. Ultimately, what convinces them is social pressure or a sudden intrusion of reality i.e. their child gets sick, they have a female friend who encounters discrimination etc.


My view is that in the absence of accessible ways to fact-check the memo people will only see the memo and the gnashing of teeth surrounding it. That leaves a really big hole to be filled - the memo is already out there in a big way.

The is Google lol, not some guy from i hate women dot com. Perhaps based on his platform alone we can consider it an honest attempt at conversation and debate it with our own honesty.


So you assume he worked this through from first principles and is thinking critically and has checked his sources... because he works (well, worked) at Google?

I can tell you that the norm among engineers, even at Google, is to receive lore and anecdotes from people slightly more educated as if it were gospel, and to repeat it uncritically until someone else more charismatic comes along. This happens so often that someone wrote a book called [The Leprechauns of Software Engineering](https://leanpub.com/leprechauns) about the unsourced commmon knowledge that engineers will blindly repeat without thinking about it.


They've only been "debunked" in the lazy, anti-intellectual corners of academia; that is, gender studies, cultural/social anthropology, critical race theory, etc. The factual points made by the author (re: gender differences only, no opinion on his recommendations for Google) square very nicely with scientific consensus [1]. The evidence has only piled on since the famous Pinker-Spelke debate.

[1] https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/debate05_index.htm...


I've only seen it in comments thus far, but here's a good example:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14951042

A quick Google, have not read the below: https://www.fastcompany.com/40449844/5-debunked-gender-myths...

Of course, internet comments will be reactionary. Pretending that is proving the point of the author is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm not saying you are inherently saying that, but I am sure many others will see it that way, as they already have commented in many of the threads about this.


+1 for the attempt, but the Fastcompany article is very weak at best, and doesn't even cite relevant studies to debunk the 5 points. It even manages to misquotes its own sources.


Not sure anyone has written a "debunking" piece but that could simply be because so much of what he wrote is standard trope for people with his views...if you read it naively it sounds like he has a point but if you're familiar with such attitudes then you'll quickly see through the pseudo-intellectual veneer of his argument.

I supposed one could take the time to rebut everything he wrote but there will probably be someone new with similar arguments next week.

What's important is that Google or any other organization striving for fairness (that is what diversity is partly about) isn't derailed by such sentiment.


> "if you read it naively it sounds like he has a point but if you're familiar with such attitudes then you'll quickly see through the pseudo-intellectual veneer of his argument."

Well I suppose that's my point isn't it? Expecting everyone who reads it to be "familiar with such attitudes" in order to come away with the "right" opinion is an awfully high bar to entry.


No, that is not my expectation and I doubt it is the expectation of people who don't agree with his opinion.

There is just a long history of his type of argument deployed in favor of his type of view. Frankly, rebutting such arguments can get exhausting especially for those who are the target of his post.


How would you propose that this kind of blow-up be handled then in the future? It's going to happen again and in the absence of opposition that's just ceding ground without resistance to the kind of attitudes in the memo.

I'm thinking if you're going to report on it, you need to either pull it apart with rigour or accept that you're just increasing the reach of it without opposition.


That is poor reasoning and only adds fuel to the assertion that there is an echo chamber / shaming culture given the response to the assertions.


Shouldn't it be up to the author to prove his claims rather than someone else to disprove them? I see no evidence provided for his stereotypes of women, for example. Something this unsubstantiated doesn't need debunking. It's simply one man's unsubstantiated opinion, nothing more or less.


> Shouldn't it be up to the author to prove his claims rather than someone else to disprove them?

Look, yes. It should be. But the author has made his best 10 page effort to do so and now I'm looking for someone who has the necessary background to critically question his claims.

That the manifesto has taken on a life of its own and spread as far as it has is only more reason for it to be succinctly and academically critiqued.


"It's simply one man's unsubstantiated opinion, nothing more or less."

That's how it should be treated. Nothing more. A lot of the pro-diversity arguments are pretty flimsy too so they should be treated the same way too.


It's a long document, but reading his tldr he makes claims that I've rarely heard reasonable people make. Notably:

The lack of discussion fosters the most extreme and authoritarian elements of this ideology. ○ Extreme: all disparities in representation are due to oppression ○ Authoritarian: we should discriminate to correct for this oppression

I've never heard that all disparities are due to oppression before. I think the problem is that we don't know how much of the gap is due to oppression. There are studies that indicate that there are factors in our society that do oppress the achievement of girls in math/science. How do we figure out how to clear up these issues?

And honestly, as someone who works in tech, I can honestly say that anecdotally I've encountered a LOT of sexist men in the field. I can't say it is the majority, but it is not a small minority. While I can't say with any certainty how much their biases impact the achievement of women in the field, I think most people outside of tech would be surprised at how much bias there is (because it is viewed as so much of a meritocracy).

And then his other point about discriminating to fix the oppression simply is naïve and ignores the day to day discrimination that happens against most oppressed groups on a daily basis. I get that a better solution would be for there to be no more discrimination across the board -- we are all born into a world where discrimination is gone (and past fruits of discrimination disappear too), but that isn't going to happen. Sometimes the choices we have in front of us are the lesser of two evils -- and yes, looking at an evil always looks bad -- but I guarantee you that the author of this article would never trade his life in for the roll of the dice of being born a black female.


What was strange to me is that it didn't seem to actually cite any sources. When I scrolled down to the bottom to read the footnotes, I expected links to purported studies, but instead, they were just more rambling. I'd think the burden of proof should be on the author for the dubious claims within.

EDIT: I looked at a link to the document on a separate comment on this thread, which appears to have links on some of the text that was missing from the Gizmodo article. Unfortunately, they aren't clickable, so I guess the most I can actually say about the citations is that they are rather informal.


From Gizmodo's summary[1]:

> Two charts and several hyperlinks are also omitted.

It's unclear whether Gizmodo removed the links or whether the leaker did. Either way, I bet some of those links were to research or summaries of research.

1. https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di...


The links are clickable if you get the original PDF, rather than using DocumentCloud's PDF viewer. https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...


[flagged]


They don't lower the bar for women.


You're assuming that the claim is true. Why?


Note that I say "alleged". It's worth verifying imo. And for the classes and training programs it should be easy.



I'm going to invoke Occam's razor here. Let's simplify diversity and just look at height. Let's assume men that are short and men that are tall are biologically equivalent, meaning biological trait that might surface are evenly distributed. Now let's inject 100 men with varying height into the general population, and... Uh oh there's a skew in leadership position and income. Taller men have better positions and have higher income.

People who are taller all have tall coworkers. They work for a boss that's a little bit taller than them. Some of them start thinking that you know this is probably just natural, men who are shorter are just biologically unsuited to be a leader. They aren't aggresive enough and they just don't have as much drive, it's probably just written in their DNA.

The short men no matter how much they perform or how brilliant they are always seem to be sidelined for promotion. Some of them make it pretty far but they're performing 50x compared to their peers, and theyre always sidelined when it comes to executive promotions. Other executives think: "this guy is brilliant but what would people think about us... We better promote the other less brilliant tall guy. We could retain investor confidence."

Some of them break out and try to start a company. They can't get any funding, and no one wants to join their company. People think its a company run by a short guy, this guy is brilliant but he's not going to do well in the long term, so they end up joining start ups that have tall guys.

This network effects over a million times.

Now let's take people's perception, and assume people perceive men and women exactly the same. The catch here is that women are one standard deviation shorter than men. Just from height you'll see a discrepancy between men and women representation in leadership positions.

Let's end height discrimination first.

I believe this is a simpler explanation of the discrepancies in representation.


Reading the manifesto felt like going through a less eloquent regurgitation of Jordan Peterson's content. So far I have been unable to disprove Peterson's points and his thoughts process is a very robust way to vet ideas. I a very curious to see if anyone can seriously debunk him.

Edit: Clarified that I meant peterson's points and not the manifesto.


It should be noted that for many of his scientific claims, not being able to disprove them says nothing. Being able to prove them is the standard of science. If you take a look at a significant number of peer reviewed studies, I think you will struggle to find any version of his points backed up.

As for his thought process, it seems to be well agreed that his argument very strongly lacks a tight argument and seemed to base itself mostly off of creating stereotypes around gender and political opinions and then proceeding to use those to loosely reason for his points. Neither the stereotypes or his reasoning are very sound.


I was talking about Jordan Peterson's content not the manifesto itself. I see now how it would be confusing though.


If you're looking for a more scientifically inclined video about this topic, take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw

(The Truth Cannot be Sexist - Steven Pinker on the biology of sex differences)


But allowing it, in the first place, is also no legally sound: https://medium.com/@scurphey/googles-response-to-employee-s-...


Clearly, Google must neither fire nor not fire the employee.


No, they must fire him. As long as Google don't act, they are complicit; very few would believe their recruiters when they'll talk about D&I, yet keep such bigots on the payroll.

It's just going to cost them more to fire him now that the trashfire is blowing full. They have nobody to blame but their own selves.


Complicit of what? Wrongthink?


Complicit in creating a toxic work environment where women feel their abilities are under constant suspicion and they are not valued as team members.


If there's anything he can't be blamed for is thinking. If he did more of that, he wouldn't be where he is.


It is interesting how aggressively people cite science to back their politics (on both "sides"). IQ distribution by gender is inconclusive. There is structurally valid and statistically significant science backing a higher beta normal distribution for male IQ than female IQ. There are similar studies attempting and failing to reproduce this. I think this is an issue like whether caffiene is healthy (or does it cause cancer? both?). Confounding is strong here (men do more school? are smarter? hormones? DNA? patriarchy? all of them?). I support this because it challenges the irrational tone on diversity of genetics. Why is that better? Isn't diversity of thought better? Are our thoughts simply a product of our skin colour and gender? What does that say about free will or moral development? About progress itself? Don't discriminate, don't hire based on gender or skin colour, do understand the science, don't take anything considered progress at face value, do question everything, don't allow people to bully you for your opinion, do assume that people will judge your actions instead of your intentions, do risk being fired for what you believe, don't be surprised when you get fired.


Punishment will happen through less overt means, most likely through (1) slower (or lack of) raises and promotions than the person otherwise would have received, or (2) undesirable team placements.


Probably much more direct, including personal threats.


What if he wrote this piece to avoid being fired for something else in the first place? Like incompetence for example. Looks like they cannot fire him for any pre-existing reasons now.


scott alexander at slate star codex absolutely kills it with a statistical analysis that supports the memo writer's opinion.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger...

he's also very balanced about his conclusions imho.


California is an at-will state, so they could also just fire him for any or no reason.

Someone spreading 10-page manifestos internally is generally toxic no matter which opinion they share. It essentially screams "I know better than any manager I could have possibly discussed this with privately." To boot, this manifesto isn't even tactical.


"so they could also just fire him for any or no reason."

Not really. There are tons of things that it would be illegal to fire someone for.

For example, you can't fire someone for trying to start a union. You can't fire someone because of their race. You can't fire someone because they have workplace complaints.

The crux of the argument is that Google may have "punish an employee for communicating with fellow employees about improving working conditions", which is illegal.

Also, "California law prohibits employers from threatening to fire employees to get them to adopt or refrain from adopting a particular political course of action."

Furthermore, "It is unlawful for an employer to discipline an employee for challenging conduct that the employee reasonably believed to be discriminatory, even when a court later determines the conduct was not actually prohibited by the discrimination laws".

These are some interesting argument that I hadn't heard until now. It will be for the courts to decide who is right. But it certainly is not as clear cut as you make it seem.


prove it


There is no way Google will fire him at this point.

His career will stagnate, but somehow I doubt he cares.

There is no way he would've sent this out if he felt that he was a tiny minority with this view.


He just got fired


I have a feeling even many of his detractors will be disturbed by this. Google made a mistake firing him so quickly. This really changed my view of Google to much worse.


I'd wait a few months and tell him to go pound sand. I don't care what his opinion is, he picked a shitty way to express it that's intentionally meant to undermine.


It is probably worth mentioning that I dislike anti-discrimination laws. A good compromise is to probably limit them to manual labor and the like.




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