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Ask HN: First time in 4 years I lost interest working for startup. What do I do?
49 points by denverdevguy on April 9, 2017 | hide | past | favorite | 49 comments
I have worked at the same startup for 4 years now. During a meeting last week I realized: I don't care about our product or it's mission anymore. I would rather be watching TV with my girlfriend or literally doing anything else.

I think I lost my faith. It's not burnout, I work 40hr weeks. But lately I just don't give a shit about bugs or features we're building.

What do I do? How do you deal with this?




Most people in the world do not in fact feel a burning connection with the mission of the company they work for.

That's really ok.

Now you've figured out what you really do care about (or at least a piece of it) - spending time with the people you love. In many ways that's a far healthier perspective to have on life.

So keep going to work and doing your job because, hey, you've got to pay the rent. If the only reason you're at this particular job is the company's mission, then start looking around for a place that pays more or has a better culture, or where you can learn more interesting things.

And in the meantime, keep doing a good job simply because you take pride in your work, and most hiring managers outside the weird "have to be passionate" startup scene will be glad to hire you.


>"have to be passionate"

That's just code for willing to take less pay.


Not to mention dozens of hours a week of unpaid overtime.


I think you could still have burnout. You don't have to be cranking 80 hours weeks to get it. I've seen people burned out with fairly easy, low stress jobs. Burnout can come from overwork, underwork, the wrong work, the wrong mission, the wrong co-workers or management. The critical element is always time. The first thing to go is the excitement.

Not to knock TV, but it is an escape. I know someone who used to get jealous of rocks(they get to just lay there). If you heal the burnout, you should start to feel your passions and motivations come back.


> During a meeting last week I realized: I don't care about our product or it's mission anymore.

I've reached that stage at 23, after about a year into my first job. Since then, I've been working for the money.


There's nothing wrong with working for the money, nearly everyone is actually just working for the money unless they're independently wealthy and working for no salary.

The difference is this: some people use "I'm just working for the money" as an excuse for apathy and doing just enough not to be fired. It doesn't have to be that way, if you reframe your personal mission to do as well as you can at the things that are within your control you'll likely find that the quality of your work and job satisfaction goes up.

If I kept my satisfaction based on my employer's goals I'd still be making 1/10 of what I make today working on a system that is just now getting upgraded to Java 7 and would know nothing about anything else.


The problem is that programming work nowadays is structured in a way that prohibits developing any kind of intrinsic goals or motivation. People like us (HN folks) thrive on autonomy and mastery, while we work on tiny and closely monitored "stories" in garbage codebases.


There is a simple beauty to finding the best solution you can given the constraints of the system, and often that's the garbage pile that is the old codebase.

The simple truth is that for every greenfield project we get in life, there's probably 30 brownfield projects. A lot of big enterprise developers may never once see a greenfield project. I sure didn't when I was on a product team.

If you want new you may find agency life fun. The downside is that if you love building new and are proud to watch things evolve gracefully you'll feel frustrated that you never get time to 'finish' the code. Also it's fucking chaos 24/7. I loved it. It will destroy you if you can't manage the always under the gun feeling though.


> [...] reframe your personal mission to do as well as you can at the things that are within your control [...]

this is one of the pieces of life advice from stoic philosphy.

(i just finished reading A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy by William B. Irvine, and recommend it)


Make enough money that you can invest most of it into a relatively safe trading strategy.

Once that investment allows you to withdraw 1-2k per month, quit your job.

You will now be paid enough money to fulfill the costs of sitting at home and watching TV with your girlfriend indefinitely.

No need to worry about working, products, bugs, etc :)


Any tips on how to get started doing this?


Howdy pal, yes absolutely I can think of some tips!!

Most people will tell you about the 4% rule, which to me roughly means "the percentage of your portfolio that you can withdraw every year without decreasing your portfolio's original value (principal)"

4% is on average what you could roughly expect to make yearly from your portfolio after taxes, inflation, and abnormally bad losses

It's a decent rule, but most people don't have a portfolio that is generating between 12,000 and 24,000 USD per year. You would need to have 300-600k invested!! That's not common for under 30 year olds.

So, you would need to either find a part time online job that you can do while sitting at home or the beach or what have you. Or partake in riskier trading strategies, such as day trading actual stocks or ETFs. This all becomes a bit of a time and happiness sink, so beware :)

1-2k per month in income is actually quite high by the way. There are places all over the county and the world where 1-2k is more than most people make per month, and they live just fine.

All about perspective!


Good stuff thanks


No magic bullet of saving money, you really have to spend less. However, if you do get to withdraw $1~2k a month which is probably somewhere around what $500k ~ $1m saving generates, you can consider moving to Asia. You can enjoy your life in countries like Thailand, Vietnam or the Philippines with that monthly withdrawl


When I was in my twenties, I was working 80-90 hours a week and working on a masters. I hated it. Whenever I had the urge to buy something, I calculated how many hours it would take for me to pay for it. I imagined those hours being the 4am, up since 7am, dead on the feet, hours. More often than not, I decided/realized that the gizmo/coffee/whatever was not worth it. I don't do that calculation anymore, but I still pause and re-evaluate every purchase.


http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-...


This is normal. You just show up, do what you need to do for your 40 hours, collect your paychecks, and go home to do what you actually want to do. Find meaning outside of work. At the same time, you need to have the discipline to keep doing a good job at work - just don't expect it to be an all-consuming, fulfilling purpose of your life.

The dirty secret is that most of us are building software that doesn't really need to exist. It's hard to stay super-passionate about it, especially as you get older and more experienced.


> The dirty secret is that most of us are building software that doesn't really need to exist.

... and won't, after some small number of months or years.


This is something I'm very sensitive to because I don't want to find myself in the same situation for long. I have felt it over time, but I've personally found success in:

Reflecting on why I first got into software development (SaaS for me). Am I still achieving those things? If not, I probably won't enjoy what I'm doing.

I have seen teams become more disengaged when everything comes top down, even if the top is a team lead. I have found success in empowering myself and others to look for things that they believe are important and work that into their schedule. I would never hold this against anyone as long as they don't go totally rouge.

Tldr; Reflect on yourself, your goals, and where you want to be. Are you there or not? If not, it doesn't mean your job is necessarily at fault. Sometimes the only person who will get you out of a rut is you.


I agree with other HNers who are suggesting taking a break. It really does look like burn-out.

You could look at how you viewed the startup when you joined. What excited you, how you felt that you were contributing to the vision. Then look at how and when that changed. Did the management change? Were a couple of unrealistic deadlines missed? After 4 years have you had a salary increase? Is it the still the same product or have there been pivots? Has the market not materialised? How about further investment? In 4 years things have probably changed and maybe you have ignored the signs that are now troubling you subconsciously.


After 4 years, I have to imagine your startup has matured to the point where you are no longer feeling like you can make a significant impact. It's diminishing returns for your cognitive output from here on out unless the company has a reason to invest in a large R&D project and you get to work on it.

You can either come to terms with working on problems that motivate you sufficiently or you can hit the road and find your happiness elsewhere.


You can deal with it in many ways. First, you need to ask yourself a few question. Why did the thought occur to you? Where you having a shitty weak, did you have a bad day or is the product genuinely bad? When you answer this your next steps should be talking to someone higher up to voice your concerns assuming there is something wrong with the product. If it is not the product then take some time off as you sound stressed. Don't do any ounce of office work just do something fun.


This may be redundant advice based on what you've already done, but I would suggest you go on a 2+ week vacation. It's often easy, after being at a startup for a while, to not really feel like you can actually unplug completely, and it sounds like it's time for you to do that. A couple weeks away from everything will give you clarity on the situation, and you'll come back either refreshed and ready to work, or clear on the fact that you need a new job.


What strategies do you take to be an active contributor to the situation while on vacation? Do you reflect on certain things, avoid others?

I'm wary against a physical solution (take a vacation) without advice on mental and emotional components that will need addressed over time. I believe a person will get into a cycle if they only use physical solutions to something which isn't that clear cut.

Taking a vacation isn't bad advice, but I'd be wary about doing so without the explicit goal to figure the situation out and not hoping it just happens


The key point of taking a longer vacation is to do the exact opposite of what you just said - you have to truly, completely disconnect from the situation at work. What helps you do this best is different for different people. For some people the best way to do this is to go backpacking or hang out on a beach, for others its a couple weeks hanging out with their kids. My sister prefers to work on a project - usually knitting or sowing something - full time.

What this gives you is a fresh perspective when you get back. If it's time to move on, you'll be dreading coming back to work, thinking how stupid your project is or how much you hate your coworkers. Maybe you'll realize you're incredibly excited about something else.

Some people really need to journal to think their way through these things, but others just don't. Again, the process is totally individual. But I think you'll be surprised how much perspective you get removing yourself from the situation.


I have done this 2+ week vacation approach. I basically chose to chill out and forget about work (as much as I could). When I got back, I was struck by the absurdity of the situation and quit soon after. Ever heard about the boiled frog analogy? You take a frog, put it into a pot of cold water and slowly turn the heat up. Being warm and cosy the poor thing doesn't realise that the water has gotten too hot until too late. Shuffling off to work is like that, you don't notice the slow increase in temperature until you are well done. Taking a vacation is like hopping out of the tepid water and then dipping a toe in later and realising just how hot the water has become.


I think we just disagree a bit. Maybe a vacation is necessary but I am very skeptical that good long term answers come from it. It's hard to tell from OP post but I'm cautious against assuming good answers will just come at the end of it.


Work for the money while exploring and enjoying boredom. Save lots of money, position yourself (or keep positioned) to get good recommendations from your team. Don't burn bridges.

If you don't eventually get inspired to do something else, take a long break, possibly quitting, and embrace the emptiness even more. Eventually, something should catch your heart.

Be open to totally new directions.

Also, 4 years is typically the time to start moving on from a company that you are not going to stay for a long, long time.


If the company he is at still calls itself a startup, then he's likely working for potential future money.

My advice would be to find a new job that pays well, involves something that you care about, or will require a great deal of learning.


It's burnout.

Feeling the same pain with you right now.


Yup. Perfect example of burnout. He doesn't care because he's burned out of it. Pretty common. As a warning, the longer you are in that situation, the longer it takes to get out of it; just like gaining weight.

>During a meeting last week I realized: I don't care about our product or it's mission anymore.

Burnout.

>I would rather be watching TV with my girlfriend or literally doing anything else.

Burnout.

>I think I lost my faith. It's not burnout, I work 40hr weeks.

It's burnout.


It doesn't have necessarily to be burnout! For instance, I would also rather do an hundred million things than working.. It may be just a part of "growing" (as in moving along)


I am founder / CEO of Codenvy, project lead for Eclipse Che, and also sit on the board of directors for WSO2, Sauce Labs, Eclipse Foundation, and Shift Mobility. My career in technology has spanned 25 years. I still code and am a partner in a venture capital company (Toba Capital) along with doing angel investments periodically. I love the challenging mashup of being very technical with building businesses / products / markets.

I have felt burn out three times in my career. In each case, I had to disassociate myself from obligations for an indeterminate amount of time. It was essentially a responsibility "detox". When faced with the prospects of no obligations ... which ultimately lead to the prospect of utter boredom ... did new opportunities and enthusiasm to pursue them materialize.

The last phase of burn out allowed me to quit Oracle for which I was an exec for a (very) short tenure, begin foolishly day trading, and ultimately lead me to investing and market opportunities that lead to the creation of Codenvy in 2012.

Burn out caused Codenvy to exist.


This is something I'm currently working through as well. As one of the founder, it's not a situation where I can (or would) get up and go. For me there's obviously a passion for what we do and what we've accomplished. On the other hand, it feels like the cartoon where the carrot is being dangled in front of the horse.

Lately, I've been doing a lot more meditation. I'm trying to be as regular as possible with (at least 2x a day). It's helped quite a bit with feeling overwhelmed which is the biggest contributor to that sense of apathy.

The other thing I've been doing is working on a framework for creating a good work/life balance. As a side project, I'm trying to build a small desktop app that makes it easy to follow the framework. Ideally though, the goal is be presence when I'm working and focus wholly on that work. When I'm not "at work" to turn that off. Not having that off switch is something that seriously exhausts me.


While you are still there, reframe your thoughts. Is there some interesting CS problem you can solve within the context of that startup that would be applicable to other industries?

Do they allow open source? If they do you could always start something that benefits them but under your own git account. It benefits you in terms of marketing yourself and your skills.


> I don't care about our product or it's mission anymore. I would rather be watching TV with my girlfriend or literally doing anything else.

> But lately I just don't give a shit about bugs or features we're building.

Welcome to the world of adults.

We work to live, we don't live to work ;)

It's alright, you can have a job in the day and be with your girlfriend the rest of the time.


I think it is quite common to want to spend time with your significant other instead of working. To call that burned out is to exaggerate the problem.

I think you should apply to other jobs, just to see what your options are.


There is nothing wrong with quitting, relaxing and even doing nothing. It is only in the perception of society that these activities are of lesser importance but they do not have to be yours.


I'd say take a break from work, go travel somewhere with your gf, come back and see how you feel.

If you still feel the same, then stop working at a startup and work at some established company.

Good luck!


Taking a break always helped me when I was in lull. That being said, after 4 years I think your feelings are perfectly normal.

If being fully engaged at work is something you need to be happy, then maybe a change is in order. Otherwise, as you said you're not doing insane amounts of overtime, simply having a job that you don't hate and pays the bills might be enough. Ultimately you have to ask yourself what you want from your job.


Have this tough conversation with the founder. You may provide insight (maybe the mission needs tweaking). It sounds like a lose/lose for you and the company now. See if the conversation can create a win/win or look for another job.


Find an industry you care (or like at least) and go vertical, that is to say use your skills for that field. You will still have bad days at office, but faith losing more probably not.


If you work 40 hours a week, it's not putting you at risk, and you are getting a reasonable salary, that sounds pretty decent to me (just some words of encouragement) :)


Find a company that is interesting to you and reach out to them directly to see if they'd be interested in bringing you on board.


Take a break and if you still don't care find something else. Pretty simple really.


>I don't care about our product or it's mission anymore.

Why?


That's a good question but I would try to answer it after some time off, looking back with more objective eyes.


How old are you and do you need to "believe?"

When I was younger, I couldn't really push hard and work really hard unless I believed in the mission. I had to have that passion fuel to do it. It's fun, it feels good when it's there, it's like being in love in a way. And I'd do 'heroic' stuff because of it. I've found, personally, that that passion fuel is more like adrenaline than actual fuel though. It tends to dry up after a while; I think this is do to life changes, if you're in a relationship or having a child or something like that, those things just dramatically outweigh "building some app" or learning some new tech. At this point in my life (married with a couple kids) I get buzzed about startup opportunities and stuff, but I don't think there is any code that will come close to what my family brings me in terms of that passion. You've made it 4 years so I'd guess you're not running on passion alone.

For a while, I tried to be really unemotional about work, I just wanted to be a professional and do that job. Honestly, I can do this, I know some people cannot. I enjoy making software, regardless of the project I can usually find aspects to enjoy and just enjoy the craft. You really don't need to give a shit to fix some bugs, at least I don't, they pay me and I do the work. That too tends to result in my relative unhappiness after a while; I feel like certain creative aspects aren't being honored if I'm just doing the job; also when the rest of my life is in disorder it's more difficult to find any satisfaction in just being a professional.

It's going to sound cliche but it's really all about balance, at least for me it is. I try to place the passion more directly in the craft and technology. I'm passionate about building great teams. I'm passionate about working with those teams as a team, I really love seeing others grow. I like my current company's mission and it's something I can get really passionate about but I try not to get too bent about the details and specifics. Something else which in ways feels bad to say and it took me a while to really admit it: I'm kind of passionate about financial successes, my company is making money and that cures a lot of the little things for me. I've worked on my priorities a lot and I know that I'd rather be part of something that we build in to success rather than having my product vision completely realized and fail. Boot strapping a start up can be remarkably emotional, you work close with people, you get close, product passions rather than craft passions can make it really difficult. You want some passion and you want to be a pro at the same time and you want to balance those things and it's probably a life long learning exercise to continually tweak them.

Take a real vacation, turn off your phones and devices, spend some time away from it all and then look at it again.


From bitter experience, TV engrosses one such that it is in effect one's primary HR, lead tech, and union representative rolled into one, each with double pay for being remote not local by the opposite-side-of-the-nation CEO. You may be misled into not devoting your time away from the workplace into bringing in new features you have crafted while the TV was off, into the morning re-introduction of you to your coworkers. [ not to be critical, but advising not to make the mistake I seem to have made in TV usage ]




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