I'm not libertarian, though I may agree with them on some stances.
>And it's intellectually dishonest.
You haven't demonstrated such.
>How, exactly, does that get enforced at gunpoint?
>How does a law limiting the actions of government get 'enforced at gunpoint proxy'?
Generally a complex system which starts in the courts, wiht the courts making a ruling that applies increasing penalties. Those who continue to ignore such penalties will eventually reach the point of being in contempt of court and either fired or perhaps jailed (it depends upon factors such as who it is). Take the example of a clerk of court refusing to award a marriage license to a gay couple after a federal appeals court struck down a state ban. Something bad is going to happen, which includes losing their job. If they fail to remove themselves from the premise after losing their job, they could be charged with trespassing. If their superior doesn't fire them and continues to pay them, then it gets messier but there are channels, albeit slow moving ones.
Simply put, if there is any point that you can thumb your nose at the court and tell them you are going to ignore them, then it isn't a law, only a suggestion.
Of course, there is a problem when the government does do this (look at three letter agencies ignoring court rulings or otherwise creating secret courts to bypass them). But, at such a point, the laws prohibiting what they are doing are no longer enforced and are thus no longer laws.
>It's why there are limited liability companies.
Who can have their assets seized. What happens when the government comes after an LLC's account due to violations and someone gets in the way?
>And there are laws to give people incentives - here in Australia, the government encourages voluntary payments into your own superannuation, and will co-contribute to some degree. How do you enforce that law at gunpoint?
>What bizarre chain of events would involve putting anyone at gunpoint because a citizen voluntarily put money into their own superannuation?
These are laws about what the government will do if you do X. What happens when someone refuses to credit an account because the account belongs to a minority? They would be fired, but if their supervisor refuses to fire them, it could go to court, where you end up with contempt of court. Refuse to show up in court and you'll be arrested. Resist, and out come the guns.
>There are plenty of laws that aren't 'enforced at gunpoint'
You are making the mistake of considering laws that never get to guns drawn because even unreasonable people don't want to escalate the situation (as well as thinking that 'if A does X, then B does Y' as being laws about A doing X instead of laws about B doing Y).
>Stop spreading libertarian FUD.
Nothing libertarian about it except for how it is worded. If you ignore the rule of law, there will be escalation til physical force is involved. Most people just submit or cut deals long before that happens, but they do so knowing that to resist will escalate.
This is ten days old, just going through the backlog, sorry.
You missed what I meant by intellectually dishonest. I gave you a few examples of laws that aren't 'gunpoint-enforced', including laws around incentives to do things. Your rebuttal was to invoke a long string of events that eventually resulted in 'trespassing', and invoking 'gunpoint' for that. It's not, however, gunpoint for the original law.
> If you ignore the rule of law, there will be escalation til physical force is involved
This is also part of what I mean by 'intellectually dishonest'. You're claiming that all laws are 'gunpoint' and therefore de facto immoral because you can concoct a long chain of unusual events that ends up with some form of physical law enforcement... but your own requirement for 'all speech should be free' falls into exactly the same pattern. You concoct some government official who refuses to pay into a minority's account, loses their job, refuses to depart the premises. But your own FOS laws do nothing to alter that chain. Slot in a FOS violation for the government official instead of paying into an account, and the chain remains unchanged. From your own reasoning, this means your FOS law is 'gunpoint enforced'.
It's usual for this style of libertarian FUD - claim all laws other than their own proposals are 'violent' or 'at gunpoint', and then skip over the details that their own suggested systems rely on exactly the same mechanisms. And yes, it is libertarian to say things like 'all laws are violent'. No other group takes this baroque standpoint; it's pure libertarian rhetoric. And seriously, laws around governmnet co-contribution are 'violent' because a government employee might lose their job if they don't comply?
>And it's intellectually dishonest.
You haven't demonstrated such.
>How, exactly, does that get enforced at gunpoint?
>How does a law limiting the actions of government get 'enforced at gunpoint proxy'?
Generally a complex system which starts in the courts, wiht the courts making a ruling that applies increasing penalties. Those who continue to ignore such penalties will eventually reach the point of being in contempt of court and either fired or perhaps jailed (it depends upon factors such as who it is). Take the example of a clerk of court refusing to award a marriage license to a gay couple after a federal appeals court struck down a state ban. Something bad is going to happen, which includes losing their job. If they fail to remove themselves from the premise after losing their job, they could be charged with trespassing. If their superior doesn't fire them and continues to pay them, then it gets messier but there are channels, albeit slow moving ones.
Simply put, if there is any point that you can thumb your nose at the court and tell them you are going to ignore them, then it isn't a law, only a suggestion.
Of course, there is a problem when the government does do this (look at three letter agencies ignoring court rulings or otherwise creating secret courts to bypass them). But, at such a point, the laws prohibiting what they are doing are no longer enforced and are thus no longer laws.
>It's why there are limited liability companies.
Who can have their assets seized. What happens when the government comes after an LLC's account due to violations and someone gets in the way?
>And there are laws to give people incentives - here in Australia, the government encourages voluntary payments into your own superannuation, and will co-contribute to some degree. How do you enforce that law at gunpoint?
>What bizarre chain of events would involve putting anyone at gunpoint because a citizen voluntarily put money into their own superannuation?
These are laws about what the government will do if you do X. What happens when someone refuses to credit an account because the account belongs to a minority? They would be fired, but if their supervisor refuses to fire them, it could go to court, where you end up with contempt of court. Refuse to show up in court and you'll be arrested. Resist, and out come the guns.
>There are plenty of laws that aren't 'enforced at gunpoint'
You are making the mistake of considering laws that never get to guns drawn because even unreasonable people don't want to escalate the situation (as well as thinking that 'if A does X, then B does Y' as being laws about A doing X instead of laws about B doing Y).
>Stop spreading libertarian FUD.
Nothing libertarian about it except for how it is worded. If you ignore the rule of law, there will be escalation til physical force is involved. Most people just submit or cut deals long before that happens, but they do so knowing that to resist will escalate.