When I was in my 20's I knew and hung out with a bunch of hobos like these. They were all (yes, ALL) middle/lower middle class, white, fairly well educated (completed high school). They all lived this way by choice. They all could get a job if they wanted to, but thought normal life/capitalism/the system/wathever "sucked". And they all depended on the system/wathever for their basic needs, or when shit hit the fan (needing a hospital, or the police in extreme cases, which happened eventually). So yeah, they could get a job. But also, our society makes this lifestyle possible, and it does have its pros. They had lots of free time, lots of freedom to go anywhere they wanted to, no responsibility, no bills to match at the end of the month, etc. But they weren't there because "you don't know what it's like".
Also, the ones who developed alcoholism or serious drug problems didn't have the stuff before. They got it through the lifestyle.
You apparently "don't know what it's like" to have something in your life that causes their state of mind. We shouldn't condemn them for choosing this lifestyle. Especially not when their alternative is likely minimum wage with no apparent escape. It does suck and they're expressing just how badly it sucks by choosing to be homeless. Good for them.
No, you're not getting it. Most of the people I knew could go to college if they wanted to. Their families would have supported them, or at least helped them out quite a bit. To give you an example, two guys I knew wanted out of it. They got a job making minimum wage while they attended welding school. They make enough to live very comfortably these days.
Some, but only a minority, really had not much of a choice. Either their family was very fucked-up and had botched their upbringing pretty bad, or they had gone down too low on drugs/alcohol.
And I'm not condemning them for choosing this lifestyle. Like I said, it does have its pros. It can be a good, exciting life, especially since you're in the US, where you can get a lot of society's excesses for free, when they are discarded.
"Could have if they wanted to" is the core signature of ADHD.
Imagine knowing that there are lots of things you could, theoretically do with the resources you have at your disposal—but having none of the "willpower" thing that lets people do things that are even slightly boring or unpleasant in the short term.
Imagine wanting to learn skills that require practice, but being unable to invoke whatever mysterious forces cause this "practice" to happen.
Imagine being amazing at stupid skills that you got because their training mechanisms involve short reward loops (for example, video games) and knowing your own potential, and hearing over and over everyone around you tell you about that potential and encouraging you to use it, but just feeling a stab of "ugh" whenever you even consider starting that is utterly insurmountable.
Imagine, even, having skills that could get you a great, well-paying job (e.g. programming—something, as it turns out, that has a short-reward-loop method of learning) but then just not being able to work up the desire to apply for a job; to go to the interviews you applied for; to come to work on time each day; to do anything other than surf the Internet once you're there.
This isn't abstract to me—
I failed out of university. I was homeless on-and-off for a year and a half. I went back to live with my parents for a year. Then (at the age of 24) I got diagnosed with ADHD and put on a medication for it.
Now, two years later, I'm making $250K/yr working as a CTO for a financial startup.
Many people I met while homeless, looking back, also had all the signs of having had ADHD—or, if not that, then major depression, or a social anxiety disorder. None of them thought of themselves as having a condition; they just "didn't want to work." They didn't realize that what they "wanted" was in large part a function of what they would or would not flinch away from because of pain; and that their pain response to attempting certain things was not a matter of "character", not and not something they had failed to learn or needed to "work through", but a treatable handicap, like nearsightedness.
I wish I could take every one of them to the same psychiatrist I went to, but it took me eight months on a waiting list to talk to them. There are far, far too few practicing psychiatrists to help all the people that need help. Something about this needs to change.
Man that hits home, only I'm still 24 with a complete lack of motivation.
I keep telling myself that I'm using it as an excuse and that it's really laziness, but if I'm intellectually honest with myself I don't really believe that. It's like I miss some hormone that motivates me, similar to perhaps a gay person missing the sexual attraction to the opposite sex and not having any way to change that, in a world where nobody is gay and nobody gets why you don't have that genuine, inherent attraction.
Feel free to elaborate a bit on how you eventually got out of this if you'd like, I'd love to hear more. Perhaps it'll help me, too.
I used to struggle with motivation. Especially at your age (I'm about to 30). Motivation is a byproduct of discipline. You need to integrate some kind of discipline in your life.
Something huge that changed my work ethic was when I bought a whiteboard. I always have two lists on it. One of the lists is "Everything I need to do." This has things like 'pay my taxes by X date', 'call my insurance company and find y out', 'start this project', 'build that dream car i have always wanted to build'. Some of the stuff might always be on it, at which point I can start really looking at those things and figuring out whether I plan on doing them, how bad I want to do it, and if it's worth my time vs the other stuff I want to do.
The second list is titled "Today", and always leads with today's date. Under that are things that I should really do today, or at least try to start. Some times the things on it roll over to the following day, sometimes they get dropped back into the larger 'everything' list. But when I do something, whether it's "Take out the trash", or "Call Person X", I get to cross that thing off the list. It stays crossed out for the whole day until that night when I reassess my everything list, erase crossed out items, change the current date, etc. It has helped me stay on task and get things done tremendously. The whiteboard has had a tremendous impact on my productivity.
This is a completely separate problem than the GP poster described, and comes off as rather insensitive too, considering they described, yknow, getting on medication to fix their broken neurochemistry.
I'm serious sir/madam, few good insights ever come of the form "You have $difficult_problem, you just need to do X to solve it".
Personal example: I get done the stuff that I need to do, but for a good chunk of it, I hate every single minute of it. Example: I just got done with a number of uni assignments - they were not difficult, the material wasn't uninteresting, but I already knew the info, I already knew I already knew the info, so going through the motions to actually get credit for it sucks. As in "God, I wish I was doing just about anything else right now"-level sucks.
The way they described that bolt of "ugh" that stops any motivation to do anything substantial? That is my fucking life right now, and I can't put down into words how much I want to get that part of me changed. All the whiteboards and organized-ness and "discipline" in the world only ensures that you're getting things done (going through the motions) - it does nothing to ensure that you will enjoy the process or even necessarily the results of the process.
If you hate everything you have to do, what's the point in living?
How do you know IkmoIkmo has broken neurochemistry? People with ADHD struggle with motivation. But perfectly normal people struggle with motivation too. There's a difference, but can you see it in a fifty-word post on the internet?
As for the drudgery of University and crappy assignments- what, do you imagine "neurotypical" people love to do banal assignments that are below their skill level? Everybody hates make-work.
The risk with all this is that manic depression, ADHD, etc are mostly an extreme form of things we all experience, so it's not hard for people to convince themselves they have it.
As for finding enjoyment- University can be a slog. But I found once I had climbed high enough (and managed to drive myself to do the un-fun parts) it became rewarding. The thing is a lot of school is building foundations; the fun part comes later. That said, if your major is completely un-fun, you should reconsider your track. E.g., as much as advanced math was a complete chore for me, I knew I loved to design circuits, and I tinkered with them through all of University.
You haven't known "God, I wish I was doing just about anything else right now" until it's June, sunny, and 75 outside, and you are sitting through a four-hour-solid lecture on linear algebra. But it was worth it.
I called out the wrong post (actually it was derefr), but I know they have broken neurochemistry because medication greatly reduced the impact of the problem.
You don't understand what I'm saying here - there's actually "banal", and then there's applying that description to any action you could be doing at this moment.
A round of TF2? Meh let's try it.. nope, still bored. Go through my bug backlog on a couple of personal projects? Open the IDE and.. eww, forget that. Going for a walk? Boring.
All of these things are things I legitimately enjoy doing, it's just that more often than not, there's a lack of enjoyment there. Sufficiently stimulated, that problem almost completely goes away (large amounts of caffeine, energy shots, etc).
I really, truly doubt that this description of mental state is "normal" for most people.
> do you imagine "neurotypical" people love to do banal assignments that are below their skill level?
Actually, yes. I say this for the simple reason that dopaminergic stimulants make banal things fun, with a linear correlation to the degree of their dosage. Everyone loves cleaning their apartment on enough Adderall.
If the dopamine-receptor-deficiency hypothesis of ADHD holds true (and it's a far stronger hypothesis than anything about depression et al.), then dopaminergic stimulants will act to emulate the neurochemistry of someone whose dopamine "set point" is naturally higher.
Or, in other words, a person with ADHD, taking a properly-calibrated dose of an ADHD medication, should experience the same level of motivation as a neurotypical person.
Which implies that if there is something that a particular dosage of a dopaminergic stimulant makes enjoyable, then people who naturally produce the same amount of dopamine endogenously will also find that task enjoyable. There are people who just love cleaning their houses, love banal assignments, love paperwork and bureaucracy. ("Love" being a bit strong—they experience no pain from it, and can get into a flow state from it somewhat like a video game. They probably won't say they enjoyed it, but they probably won't say they feel like they wasted time, either.)
The weird insight one gets from this is: if dopamine-receptor imbalance forms a normal distribution (as many people have more dopamine than is neurotypical, as have less), then there are a whole lot of people walking around who really enjoy make-work. And some of them make policy decisions.
Not objectively/absolutely banal. Relatively more banal, compared to the things people with ADHD can enjoy doing. There is a margin of things that are banal to people with ADHD but not to neurotypical people, just as there is a margin of things that are banal to neurotypical people but not to manic people. (Have you ever seen a crackhead picking at the floor trying to find bits of crack they might have dropped? [A common sight in my city, if you're wondering.] They can do it for 30 minutes with no chance of finding anything, not getting the slightest bit bored. Banal!)
On another note, you argue 'few good insights ever come of the form "You have $difficult_problem, you just need to do X to solve it"', but right before that you say "getting on medication to fix their broken neurochemistry." Is that not an example of "you have $difficult_problem, do X to solve?" You sound young and confused. It will pass.
Maybe qualifying the phrasing makes it more useful: few good insights come of the form "you have $difficult_problem, you just need to do [thing that is easy enough to try that if you were interested in solving this problem you've probably tried it long ago] to solve."
Getting on a medication is hard, and frequently shameful. It especially requires acknowledging, first, that you have a problem to a degree where you should seek help with it, rather than that you just "prefer to" be lazy. Because of this, people who have motivational problems don't tend to try the solution "getting on medication to fix their broken neurochemistry" until a whole bunch of evidence piles up to suggest that's the way to go.
An economist would say that, because the market is efficient, there is no money left lying on the ground—if you think you see some, it's either a fluke that will correct itself, or an illusion. Likewise, there's no "one simple life hack" that will actually solve any common, chronic problem humanity faces. If there was, it'd have reached fixation as common wisdom long ago. (For example: brushing your teeth to avoid them rotting away. It's a "life hack" that works!)
The only time something can be both "one simple life hack", something few people know about, and actually work, is if it's really hard to put it into practice. Practicing epistemic rationality is a "life hack" for avoiding wasting time, but you have to read tons of things and route around a bunch of your own neural circuitry to make it happen. Moving to another country is almost always a "life hack" for getting better job and relationship opportunities, but it requires uprooting a lot of your existing life. Etc.
The only "easy/surefire wins" in the market of personal health/well-being/productivity, are the ones you'd never try on a whim because they have too much of an upfront cost. The art, then, is in convincing yourself to feel "desperate" enough to try those things early on, rather than wasting time with the patent-medicine-style life-hacks first.
Or, in short, and by analogy: in a nutrition store, all the stuff that is known to work, is locked behind the counter. Things that work, unsurprisingly, have side-effects; frequently the side-effects are in fact simply corollaries or restatements of their effect! Anything with no side-effects, no costs, is extremely likely to also have no effect.
A good book to read on this is The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. While his experience was that of a writer overcoming difficulties with motivation and persistence, most of it applies very generally.
That's how I felt until I discovered low therapeutic doses of extended-release amphetamine.
Now I'm 26 and take a pill 1-3 days each week I'm working. If you experiment, I wouldn't take more than 20mg of Adderall XR or 50mg of Vyvanse, and I'd start lower than that.
Best thing to happen to me.
If the reactions of "Just do it" and "Just be more disciplined" and "Just try this one weird trick" feel worthless to you, it's because they are. Everyone seem to has a judgmental opinion on this subject.
That really scares me. For one, these drugs are usually relatively new, known to be abused, known to lead to cases of addiction etc. And I'm scared it changes who I am even if it would radically improve my life. I mean don't get me wrong, I know these are edge cases, exceptions, and that for many people including yourself they have been a blessing.
Beyond that, it's not something I can get (without risk of getting something wrong) without getting diagnosed first. And while I'm glad for that, I'm also really apprehensive to go through the whole process, of months of talking and self reflection and filling out personality forms and keeping diaries and speaking to psychologists. The lack of motivation I have is such a stupid problem because it kills any action towards solving it.
Really appreciate your post in any case, I've written it down and will look into it more.
Very similar story here. It had been suggested that I see someone regarding ADHD when I was younger but my dad didn't really "believe" it existed. Nothing that couldn't be fixed with old fashioned grit and character building.
Dropped out of college after losing almost all motivation to go to class or constantly forgetting things I had to do. This just started a cycle of self loathing and depression and feeling like a worthless fuckup.
Eventually landed a low paying job despite not having my degree and with the help of my SO, got through the long waiting period and other hurdles to see a doctor.
Got treatment, went back to school and finished my degree with nothing lower than a B in any class. Not making nearly what you are but where I live at least, the difference between $20k/yr and $60k/yr (especially as one half of a pair of "DINKs") is massive.
Medication to tweak the dopamine response curve isn't perfect but I have it to thank for at least enabling me to do the normal hard work of making it in life.
There was a recent reminder by Sam Altman about the guideline on avoiding negativity on Hacker News[1]. While I agree with the importance of 'checking one's privilege', I feel like calling someone a "rich ass spoiled kid" for sharing an insightful, topically relevant, and inspiring story of conquering their own mental health issues is in violation of this.
Also, since OP mentioned they are now receiving treatment for ADHD, its insulting to insinuate that you don't think they are capable of handling technology operations.
Yes, most of us here are quite privileged. Even homeless people in first-world countries are privileged compared to many living in third-world countries, and I think it's important that we acknowledge it. But your attitude does not help make this community a better place.
1. ADHD can come and go, like the major depressive episodes of clinical depression[1].
I had 5+ years of experience (I started programming when I was 11, in fact); my period of homelessness came after having already worked several great jobs (that I got no thanks to my parents—a retired tradesman and a gas-station attendant with a combined income of $20k/yr.) I've also built out a pretty good portfolio of work in realtime distributed systems engineering. I "burned out" of one job I had at the time, and just never looked for the next one. I lived off savings[2] for a year while trying to start a startup, until my savings ran out. Then I was homeless.
2. I was eliding a lot by saying that I was living with my parents. My parents are bankrupt, now divorced, and live in the country. (My father is bipolar, which drove much worse things to happen in their lives for decades—a string of half-baked entrepreneurial ventures each dropped after heavy investment whenever he entered his depressive phase, for just one. Moving out at 16 was a decision I still do not regret.)
I actually went to live with my grandparents, illegally, in their no-tenants-under-the-age-of-retirement condo, because they insisted that I stay with them even though they couldn't afford to support themselves, let alone me. (They certainly couldn't bail my parents out.)
This was a move that caused me to be two hours' commute from the nearest city of population greater than 10,000. While looking for a new job, I commuted that distance, both ways, nearly every day. It wasn't that I wasn't actively looking for a job; it was that each individual job application was, effectively, an arduous process it would take weeks/months to recover from. The strain I put on them was what made me finally decide I needed to see a psychiatrist.
That was only for the last few months of my "stint" at homelessness, though. Before then, I was just ducking my almost-always-absent landlord, effectively squatting in the room I had previously been renting, and trying to scape together a dollar or two each week to buy bags of rice and such.
Should I also mention that I mostly paid for living expenses while going to [community] college—for the year or two I did—by getting student loans and then avoiding spending them on anything non-essential, like textbooks?
3. I was never on welfare, or employment insurance, or on any government assistance programs of any kind. You know why? They were too much effort to get into! Also, they effectively required applications to their services to happen near-simultaneously with the loss of one's job. One of the most common effects of ADHD is putting off paperwork, homework, filing your taxes, etc. until it's far too late.
I was homeless, but I wasn't a beggar on the street. Instead, I was couch-surfing without a dollar in my bank account, tens of thousands of dollars in credit-card debt, no friends within a thousand miles of the city I lived in, and a rapidly-worsening state of health because I couldn't pay for my own healthcare.
4. I wasn't hired as CTO; the previous CTO quit, and I worked my way up. This isn't a big company, so just think "tech lead", not "guy in an expensive business suit who bosses around tech leads."
I've never mentioned having ADHD to anyone at any job I've worked at since beginning treatment for it. Medicated, I'm normal; just as a nearsighted person wearing glasses is normal. Effectively, in my mind, I don't have ADHD now—ADHD is a condition I would get (again) if I stopped taking my medication.
ADHD is a deficiency of an essential chemical my body cannot produce on its own—to wit, a vitamin deficiency. Do we say that people with scurvy always have scurvy, but were are just temporarily well as long as they continue to consume vitamin C? No; they're normal on vitamin C.
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[1] I've almost come to believe that all the talk of "burn out" in programming is because ADHD is pretty common in programmers—or rather, programming is a pretty common thing to get into for people with ADHD—and so, to someone who has undiagnosed ADHD but to a degree that's normally manageable with self-medication through things like caffeine, a stressful+unrewarding job can heighten the symptoms to the point that it can't just be managed/brushed aside, and has to be addressed as a problem. But, since it required the triggering event (a bad job), it gets blamed on the trigger-condition instead of on the vulnerability it exposed.
[2] Savings amounting to a few thousand dollars. Junior programming jobs here don't tend to pay well, nor was I very savvy about what I should charge for the contracting work I did, nor was it very easy to get hired by places with money given my lack-of-a-college-diploma. I did figure it out the general solution, in the end: working remotely for US companies, instead of accepting the local prevailing wage.
>> † I've almost come to believe that all the talk of "burn out" in programming is because ADHD is pretty common in programmers—or rather, programming is a pretty common thing to get into for people with ADHD—and so, to someone who has undiagnosed ADHD but to a degree that's normally manageable with self-medication through things like caffeine, a stressful+unrewarding job can heighten the symptoms to the point that it can't just be managed/brushed aside, and has to be addressed as a problem. But, since it required the triggering event (a bad job), it gets blamed on the trigger-condition instead of on the vulnerability it exposed.
This is a really good point. A lot of burnout could be explained by untreated ADHD overcoming the power of legal stimulants.
I wonder if burnout is as common in other professions requiring a lot of focus. Do surgeons burn out? Business people? Lawyers? Others?
Personally I think that they do, but I also think that they have better coping mechanisms available. Surgeons and doctors in general, while having an absolutely bonkers schedule, also periodically get whole weeks off in order to compensate for that schedule.
Programmers, possibly because of said ADHD tendency, seem to never really give themselves time off. It's almost considered improper to even take weekends off. That's when you're supposed to work on your open source projects dummy.
If you don't mind me asking, how hard was it to find a job after being away for that long?
I graduated from university 2 years ago, but I haven't sent out even a single resume or job application. In a couple of weeks, I (also being 24) will be having my first appointment with a psychiatrist.
I suspect that within the next several months I will be attempting a job search, but I am worried that having such a large gap will make the process rather difficult.
I graduated from university 2 years ago, but I haven't sent out even a single resume or job application. In a couple of weeks, I (also being 24)
Ugh, same here. I've scraped by on a small-time one-man startup that just barely pays the rent. (as is seeing declining revenues).
Trying to muster up what it takes to apply for a job. I don't know why it's so hard for me. I'm fine dancing at a club or giving a presentation in front of hundreds, I'm not shy in that way, but I'm afraid of picking up a phone and making a call to a recruiter (hell to a store to ask if they're open). And I'm scared of putting myself out there, sending my CV, or hell even worse, getting the job and failing. I've got no clue what the hell is up with me, and I can't find any motivation.
But yeah same here, 24, 2 years out of uni, never sent out an application since. Let me know, if you'd like, how your meeting goes. Good luck!
> But also, our society makes this lifestyle possible, and it does have its pros.
I assumed you were calling for the end of some form of social aid. The minimum wage portion of my comment could be extended to student loans or anything else. The point is that society has yet to provide decent options to every single person. Further, it's hard to work on something when you feel it's just garbage work you have to do because you're poor. The choices made by people with relatively unsavory options shouldn't determine their merit for aid.
The homeless I have known are not their by choice. Yes, out of clinging on to the little dignity they have left, many will call themselfs Outdoorsmen, or Drifters, but they all had a valid reason for being Homeless.
Mental illness--yes.
I have not seen drug abuse as the sole reason for homelessness in my area.
I have seen Buddist monastery kick out 50 year old woman for not earning her keep.(yes, in liberal Marin this happened! She join the monastery when she was 17.)
As to using the system--what system? The one's I know don't see a medi-cal doctor when sick, and when they do, they are stigmatized, "He will probally sell the medication".
They all need dental work.
Yes, they use the Catholic chow hall. That is the system. Section 8 is closed. The one's I know don't even apply for food stamps.
The common denominator among the homeless I know is Lack of Suppport from family members! Most of us have had some rough patches(nervous breakdowns, gaps in employment, addiction issues) and usually have some family member that helps out. These people had no one to turn to.
Oh yea, I have seen family members do horrid things to brother/sister/mother/father. It usually involves manipulation of by a greedy member over Money. The greed in some of these stories is staggering. There is a complete lack of compassion in some families, and then there's the denial. "I had a bad childhood, I owe that women nothing!"
"That kid has leached off of me too long!". "Let her sleep under the house, for now!"
I have head all these quotes. I don't know what causing family members(who could help) appear so indifferent, and in some cases appear to want to make bad situation worse? I can't blame lack of spirituality. Some of the worst offenders show up in church, and synagogue?
"The common denominator among the homeless I know is Lack of Suppport from family members! Most of us have had some rough patches(nervous breakdowns, gaps in employment, addiction issues) and usually have some family member that helps out. These people had no one to turn to."
This. I've spoken to many homeless people - mostly in NYC but in other cities too. Whenever I ask about their family they always tell me that their folks woudn't pick them up. I once called the son of a drunk middle aged man on Brighton Beach. He didn't seem too particularly concerned when I told him I knew where his dad was.
I want to make a website where people can see profiles of homeless people, hear their story and sponsor them. I would have a very low cost operation: rooms in cities for homeless people, with a shower, computer, and food (soup etc). Homeless could use the room but would need to register their name, photo, biometrics (fingerprint etc) and progress through a program that would be a bit gamified. The steps would be somewhat personalized but essentially include the following tasks:
Register
Go make an appointment with a psychiatrist
Go meet someone who will help buy clothes, shower etc.
Get a cellphone and an address
Talk to a career counselor
Apply for government assistance, with help
Get an education or a job
They would receive cards and we'd see what they spend on. Their cards would be loaded with more money as they complete challenges. They'd be self motivated with 90% assistance from the program. I am a big believer in "smart tools" that make motivation easier and take care of 95% if all the research and logistics. The homeless person shouldn't have to figure out what they need in their backpack, what programs exist in their city and how to apply or take advantage of them. This hould be done by experts. And motivation should be optimized also, with human servie providers helping do evaluations and customizing.
I also believe in metrics and reporting, which the public funding the website would receive as people get off the street get a job and their stories of success.
>We shouldn't condemn them for choosing this lifestyle.
Oh, I'll condemn the ones that choose it. If you're homeless because you have mental or physical problems that's one thing, but people who choose to be homeless because they're too lazy to work are parasites.
Laziness is an indicator of mental disorder; there is usually some sort of depression, drug abuse, or other problem making the person drop out of society like that, rarely is it just "I don't want to work." Of course, in less prosperous societies, it mostly isn't a choice made willingly.
I don't agree at all. Some amount of laziness is normal, and the world is full of people without mental disorders that will do the minimum to get by. This is just the tail end of the curve.
Everybody has problems, and most of us still get up and go to work. Since we're not going to deny services to the ones who don't we should require them to work if they're able.
Some amounts of laziness are normal, but excessive amounts are not. Mental disorders are much more common than you think, and probably could have been easily solved with early intervention (but you know the education and mental health system in America isn't that great...).
But anyways, they don't get a free ride especially in Puritanical America.
>But anyways, they don't get a free ride especially in Puritanical America.
They don't? Where I live they get money from the county and free medical care. They occasionally get free beds in a shelter (which some of them refuse). When they attack each other the cops are left to try and figure it out. And the rest of us are paying for it all.
I'm not opposed to helping people who need it, but I think the idea people who behave antisocially ipso facto have some sort of mental illness and should therefor be supported by the rest of us is corrosive and wrong.
This is still much less than they get in other developed countries. The alternatives of no support...well...you just have to come to China to see how that works out.
Do you feel as strongly about the people that can provide for themselves, do much better than yourself, yet still choose to live off of you?
What about large groups of people who pay lawyers more money than you'll ever see to figure out ways to take more to live off of you and never contribute back?
Does anyone who takes a tax break classify as a parasite as well? Are parents parasites until their kids are independent?
Why is it that someone who consumes no social services (no address/documents? have fun), besides an odd meal or night in a shelter provided from donations, produces such vitriol from you while an entire class of people exists that rake in trillions of dollars that are skimmed directly from your taxes?
Anyway, have fun dehumanizing a disadvantaged class of people on the internet.
Also, the ones who developed alcoholism or serious drug problems didn't have the stuff before. They got it through the lifestyle.