Former Oracle employee, via acquisition. Horrible place to work.
This post is my own opinion and does not relflect insider or confidential information from Oracle.
MSI's are just safer/simpler/easier to test/easier to deploy. The fact that they hide it is pretty unforgivable.
Apple has stopped including Java in OS X and banned Java in the AppStore.
Mac OS X is the only major consumer operating system that comes complete with a fully configured and ready-to-use Java runtime and development environment. Professional Java developers are increasingly turning to the feature-rich Mac OS X as the operating system of choice for both Mac-based and cross-platform Java development projects. Mac OS X includes the full version of J2SE 1.5, pre-installed with the Java Development Kit (JDK) and the HotSpot virtual machine (VM), so you don't have to download, install, or configure anything.
Deploying Java applications on Mac OS X takes advantage of many built-in features, including 64-bit support, resolution independence, automatic support of multiprocessor hardware, native support for the Java Accessibility API, and the native Aqua look and feel. As a result, Java applications on Mac OS X look and perform like native applications on Mac OS X.
you can still include your own JRE.
Oddly, Oracle provide a tool to create a DMG with a .app inside that has a bundled inside. It's very easy to use. Doing this means your users don't need to install Java themselves anymore. Seems like the left hand cutting off the revenue stream of the right hand, but hey, I'm not complaining.
Only half-joking -- I'm not sure it has any real desktop application mindshare, though I don't know much about what people run on their Macs.
* You will take the corporate standard laptop and like it.
* You will take the corporate standard screen and like it.
* You will take the one corporate standard virtual machine you are allocated and like it.
* Everything moves slowly, even for a corporate bureaucracy.
* None of the above applies to Sales - they can have whatever they want whenever they want, including brand new MacBook Pros yearly. (That says a lot about priorities)
* Stack-ranking system that tries to force managers to give 1/3 of the team bad rankings every year. In theory the top 1/3 are supposed to get bonuses/options, but in practice managers just spread the pain around so even as a top-performer I got screwed.
* Pay used to be kinda average, but now that the wage fixing cartel was shut down and wages have risen it makes Oracle look hilariously low.
* Lots of mandates from on high about what technologies to use
* Above mentioned technologies are heavily designed by architecture astronauts; if it makes the install 8 GB and take 15 hours all the better to push customers to consulting services. Lots of XXXFactory classes and useless abstractions.
* Be forced to tell a customer you can't restore your copy of their database to test with because ProdDev IT won't give you NAS space to store it (not that it would be fast enough to be usable anyway)
* Everything interesting or good for customers will get massive pushback; the focus is on checkboxes that CTOs can understand
* Manager turf wars and pompous blowhards abound, all looking to carve out a nice little kingdom to lord over.
It's a place to go earn a basic salary until you retire. After the acquisition, everything got much worse.
If your company is acquired by Oracle, plan your exit strategy and stay just long enough to cash out whatever options you have.
If a company you rely on is acquired by Oracle, look for an alternative immediately. They will eventually strangle you, even unintentionally just by neglect. Never put yourself in the position of relying on Oracle unless you're on the Fortune 1000 list.
Again, all my personal opinion and does not rely on any confidential or non-public information. I was just a developer and have no knowledge of strategic decisions at Oracle.
This seems like the sort of polished addendum you'd write if you're used to having to say it over and over and over again. Do you just have this saved as a text expander snippet and use it in all your posts?
My large corp experience is that you are expected to paste a similar disclaimer on all external communications, during your employment, where your employment with that company is relevant to the conversation - explicitly such as above, or even implicitly.
The only place I see this not done is on mailing lists, where your corporate allegiance is more or less expected.
After you've had this bashed over your head a few times, it's just standard cruft to append.
Ah, and yes: it is an awful place to work. For the same reason: they don't care about anything but money... Employees are COGs, nothing more, nothing less. If you find the right niche, you can live a quiet salaried life there for some years, btw... like probably in any other giant company.
This is really tragic, since the Java language and VM are nice pieces of technology. Unfortunately Oracle is killing them. I'd never use them for a new project now.
So while Java managed to fix its reputation itself, Oracle is doing everything in their power to break it again.
Why not? There's a tool called javapackager that makes a self contained app install for Linux, Mac, Windows that doesn't require the user to install the JRE, if you're doing desktop projects. For servers this stuff is irrelevant anyway.
Java is mostly open source too, so if you wanted to make your own system JRE installer setup, I guess you could (though OpenJDK isn't identical to the Oracle JRE).
From the producer who decides to reduce the amount of good in a box, while keeping the packaging and price tag the same, to the grocery store clerk that sells you meat that was already twice washed with dishwashing liquid to appear fresh (a very common practice), to the company that regularly sends you 4W LEDs when you order 5W hoping you won't notice, and if you challenge them they'll tell you it was a factory labeling mistake, to the smartphone vendor that tells you about amazing experience and then sells you equipment loaded with so much crapware that you cringe every time you turn it on - everyone around you is out there to get you. So many businesses try to fuck you over, all the time, and they totally get away with it.
And then everyone is surprised people have trust issues. It's hard enough to get people to install any kind of updates in the first place - and how we're expected to have a secure Internet if people have a very good reason not to install new versions of things?
Seriously - companies like Oracle, like Ask.com, like Lenovo, SuperFish, like Uber and like so many, many others - start-ups, mom&pop's, medium companies, big corporations - they all found a very profitable business model: taking the common value of trust we have in society and burning it to earn money. And I guess it works well - if you're an executive who's going to get a pay raise and maybe a promotion for literally shitting on the faces of your customers, when why wouldn't you do it? Well, except of having any decency at all?
Whoever decided to bundle this crapware with Java Runtime, if you're reading this - you're actively contributing to one of the biggest problems our civilization is facing. You should feel responsible. The next time someone dies because he refused to follow established procedures out of lack of trust, this is - in a small but important part - on you.
It may feel like I'm exaggerating here, but just look around and think for a minute. The collapse of trust we see in contemporary society is raising to the level of becoming an existential threat for our civilization. And I wish I knew a way how to reverse it...
I'm sure if it were somehow possible and legal to bundle some kind of mind-control adware into a vaccine that forces you to buy the sponsor's brands, someone would be doing it.
Indeed. And I think people sometimes don't realize that this trust on society-level is literally the one thing that separates us from being savages. Not our technology, not our military, not the scientific advances, not the democracy, but bonds of trust are what keeps civilization from falling apart.
> I'm sure if it were somehow possible and legal to bundle some kind of mind-control adware into a vaccine that forces you to buy the sponsor's brands, someone would be doing it.
Then it would be detected, someone would get fired, company would pay some huge fines to FDA of WHO or whomever, at best maybe regulations would also be updated, and then everything would be business as usual. Everything, except the trust people just lost - because seeing the corruption everywhere, what possible reason would they have to believe that the new regulations will be effective at preventing such event from happening again?
This is a fundamental truth that needs to be realized now if there is to be any hope of preventing our slide from a democratic republic into a new form of feudalism. More specifically, a financially stable democratic republic into a feudal society that dissembles, victim-blames, and makes shows of force to hide a useless economy and defaulted obligations.
The trust and respect that being destroyed by both business and government is also what the finance pundits refer to when they talk about "confidence in the market". When many people start observing that "rule of law" and "meeting of the minds" as used by everyday business interactions have become a double-standard that will be enforced in only one direction, the rational conclusion is to respond with the same lack of trust and respect.
I am of the opinion that we already reached this point. A lot of people already deeply mistrust large business, and w4 only have to look at the evening news to see the level of confidence most people have in the economy. We're simply waiting for a spark to ignite the situation. I actually thought the fast-food employee situation was going to be that spark last year, but it seems that problem has been put on hold for the moment.
Meanwhile, we get to deal with the collaborators that work to maintain the current situation by trying to explain away bad behavior like this Lenovo/Superfish stupidity. I hope they like the future they are creating...
 why? see the "tit-for-tat" solution to the iterated prisoner's dilemma
> When many people start observing that "rule of law" and "meeting of the minds" as used by everyday business interactions have become a double-standard that will be enforced in only one direction, the rational conclusion is to respond with the same lack of trust and respect.
I've been thinking about the names we use in law and economics and I realized many have become just misleading labels. It's like a variable named m_iNameCount that points to a global array of instances of Thread class. And this leads to the common trick of those "collaborators" you described, the "motte-and-bailey"-like argument. They will defend bad practices by saying, e.g. "it's value-added; surely adding value is good?", where everyone knows that value-added doesn't actually mean adding any real value for your customer.
 - http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-word...
Lets tone down the reddit style outrage politics and hyberbole eh? This is a common practice, while ugly, is barely noteworthy. This kind of fan-service tying it to vaccines is really out of bounds as well. There's no relationship here between the two.
Of course getting slapped in the face by a crapware-bundling Java update won't make you skip your kid's vaccination, but where do you think the lack of trust for doctors comes from? It's from living in a society where almost every organization you interact with tries to pull a fast one on you (if you don't believe that, go and talk with some antivaxxers - you'll quickly realized that they're not stupid - they're afraid and don't trust authorities because they see themselves getting constantly abused by them). So if you decide to abuse your user's trust for a quick buck because "it's a common practice", you're part of the problem - just like the girl who sold you that twice washed meat or the guy who insists that it's the factory that mislabeled the lightbulbs, even though your handy multimeter confirms what's on the label (EDIT: both are real examples I have direct knowledge of; heck, because I'm nice to the people working in my local grocery store, they discreetly signal me to pick something different when I want to buy meat that is old and was washed).
You are literally equating a toolbar with parents not vaccinating their children. I think you've lost a basic sense of perspective here.
1) Anti-vaccine movement = public health problem = dangerous.
2) Anti-vaccine movement comes from declining levels of trust in authorities.
3) Tricking your users into installing crapware = abusing them = making them trust your company less.
4) Being lied to and abused like that by pretty much every company all the time, in all sectors = people lose the general level of trust in organizations.
5) from 1), 2) and 4), lack of trust leads to actual danger.
6) from 3), by abusing your users you're contributing to actual danger.
"Contributing" doesn't mean you're fully responsible for the outcome - it means you're as responsible as your contribution is. It's a tragedy-of-commons thing.
I'll just leave this relevant episode of [Last Week Tonight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ2UeOTO3I). While anti-vaxxers are clearly wrong let's acknowledge that health care, at least in the US, has been partially corrupted.
The thought that medical workers might be offering unsound advice in this one area when it's known they behaved unethically in that other area suddenly does not appear so unreasonable.
 - http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/17/pharma-virumque/
1) Anti-vaxers don't trust corporation or the government - which is why they don't vax.
2) Corps/govs are repeatedly seen doing stuff for themselves at the expense of the public - this is where that lack of trust comes from.
3) Crapware and unwanted toolbars are an example of #2
It's a fairly direct contribution from 3 to 2 to 1. It's not that the crapware makes people fail to vaccinate. It's that the crapware is part of a widespread problem reinforcing the appearance of #2 which leads people to #1.
If you think that's what TeMPOraL is saying, I think you need to read more closely. There's more nuance than you give credit for.
If a person has never once encountered an institutional representative that is trustworthy, it is natural by human psychology (but not by formal logic) to conclude that such people do not exist. Then, when someone approaches, and relies upon institutional trustworthiness to accomplish a certain purpose, such as by invoking the CDC, the AMA, and medical colleges around the world to convince parents to vaccinate their child, what you absolutely do not want is for them frantically searching the paperwork for the checkbox that has to be unchecked in order to not give the kid autism (especially the Ask.com toolbar form of it) with their immunity.
It may be obvious to you that Oracle and physicians are different. But to many people, medicine and software are just different types of magic, and equally confusing. They might as well be alchemy and thaumaturgy. For them, using software is like following a recipe or performing a ritual. Everything they do not understand is equally magical.
Oracle contributes to the undermining of trust in the same way as the quick-lube mechanic that charges to refill the blinker fluid, or the home renovation contractor that does a bait-and-switch with the estimates, or the banker that issues a bunch of liar loans, or the public retirement plan administrator that invests in businesses owned by friends of the mayor, or the fed-cop who uses parallel construction on illegal surveillance data to catch a crook.
It creates an atmosphere of mistrust. That alone is not sufficient to bleed over into medicine, but the health care industry in the US is an enormous, corrupt clusterfuck. Anecdotes are not data, but a well-told story shapes public opinion in a measure far beyond statistical significance. One video documentary on YouTube is more impactful than a 200-page CDC report. If the CDC has no inherent trustworthiness, people will preferentially believe the thing they can understand.
It isn't Oracle's fault, in any measurable way, but they certainly are not helping. We need to be able to trust someone to not sell us out for a fraction of a penny.
Still, I think that our complex technological civilization needs a higher base level of trust for it to work than the civilization of Sumer, because we depend on it much more than ever in history.
brew install java-runtime
==> Downloading http://oracle.com/osx/java-osx-8-x86_64.tgz
==> Downloading http://ask.com/osx/asktoolbar-2.4.tgz
$ real-pkg-manager install jre-openjdk
==> Downloading http://trustedmirror.somerealdistrib.org/openjdk.tgz
==> Checking openjdk.tgz signature
This seems to be a common pattern - after you delivered all the value you could and you still have competition, eventually you and everyone else will start one-up each other on abusing your users for additional profit.
If the user keeps to the default installer settings and goes next, next, next... AND in Safari deliberately selects "Install" (not pre-selected) in the confirmation window, the ask.com toolbar will be installed.
I can kind of understand some small software developers out there doing this stuff to make a few extra dollars but Oracle? It just seems so unnecessary. I guess they just can't get their head around giving something away for free.
"When you have a commercial relationship like this, not only are you dealing with your [own] corporate policies on communication, and revenue recognition and all that kind of stuff, but you also have a commercial partnership and agreement that you have to abide by and follow," said Smith during the call.
Smith also defended the practice by saying Oracle had inherited the deal when it acquired Sun Microsystems, the creator of Java, in 2010. "This is not a new business, this is not something that Oracle started," Smith said. "This is a business that Sun initiated a long time ago."
Sun had bundled third-party software with Java since at least 2005, when it offered a Google toolbar. In the following years, Sun made similar arrangements with Microsoft and Yahoo, before switching to Ask.com.
With Java, it's true our installer waits 10 minutes before running the install process, but this to ensure the JRE [Java Runtime Environment] updates properly without additional strain on a user's computer," an Ask.com spokeswoman said in an email reply to questions Monday. "This is not intended to trick users."
Also some desktop apps come with Java bundled together. The user just installs the app and runs it.
Installing adware with security updates is just so wrong on several points. It is difficult enough to get non-techies to install security updates and now you additionally have to teach them to watch out for crapware that someone sneaks in there.
I'm choosing C# over Java whenever I can, just because of the ask.com toolbar, seriously I find it that annoying.
And this Ask-crap is what they do instead, making pretty much every user in the world hate them. (Not to mention the insanity of how they handled the security problems they found themselves in right after acquiring Sun and Java)
Contrast deploying the JRE with a simple package vs deploying it on Windows, which usually required an ever-evolving set of hacks to extract MSIs from the installer and install it in an automated fashion without installing bloatware, having it sit in the taskbar, auto-updating (which is a no-no in an enterprise environment), etc.
Now, thanks to this change, people on the Mac side will get to experience all the joys of deploying the JRE on Windows.
"numerous IE toolbars"
Which isn't the case for Oracle AFAIK... ;-)
I can't imagine anyone feels good about trying to trick their users into installing this crap. If the money wasn't good, only completely amoral psychopaths would do it. As it stands, the financial incentives bring it to the point where greedy asshats are also willing to get in on the action.
It's telling that Facebook, a company that's not known for treating their users as anything other than a commodity to be packaged and sold, would never stoop to something like this.
In an era where a photo sharing site sells for over a billion dollars, Oracle must be raking in hundreds of millions on this deal for it to be worth the damage to their Java brand.
They've had many opportunities to do stuff like that with their iOS and Android apps but have never dared.
I think ask.com pays whoever bundles their toolbar so it's basically advertising money, at least it seems like that for me.
But yeah, thanks to both of you.
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if ask.com is willing to bundle their toolbar with any product. Maybe they select only high-volume products?
If this action enable someone to get a raise or a promotion, the final $ amount doesn't need to be very high. just enough to be deemed a financial successful project.
More positively, this is a an excellent data point for both free software advocates ("look at the abuse closed source enables") and Apple ("do you really want to foist crapware on your users? just use our awesome native tools to write apps!")
I imagine that this move infuriates much of the Google Android team (because it weakens the developer story slightly) and makes them very glad that they have "Android plan B" with Go.
Meanwhile, for apps like Minecraft that want to distribute consumer Java apps, just bundle the JRE. It's quite easy these days.
Is Oracle really getting substantial money out of this deal?
Yup. You gave Mac enough market-share for it to be profitable to bundle crapware there as well. This is probably just the start and more will follow.
Whatever you do, please don't tell people to install Linux. I like it the way it is and I don't want any of this shit coming here.
This is strange. Google, Bing, Ask, Yandex, and Baidu provide very useful services and put vast resources behind organizing the world's information. Two decades ago people would have paid serious money for any of those services. Yet now, search companies resort to expensive or, in this case rather pathetic, measures to get people to use their product.
Even the social companies (Facebook, Instagram, etc.) don't need to do that.
I'd really like to listen in to one of the meetings where decisions to do such kind of blatant platform-abuse is being discussed. Possibly alternatives A/B/C (you always have to have 3 alternatives, right?) are the Ask-Toolbar, a bitcoin-miner or adding the end-user-PC to a botnet for DDOS-extortion, so we can be lucky that they agreed to do "A".
How to disable offers in the control panel.
Hopefully there will be some backlash; that was one of my favorite parts of the platform.
I am tired of 100% of the blame for these situations going to Oracle and Adobe, they are just doing what they were designed to do, make money by any means necessary. The developers who voluntarily learned a language and joined a community that is controlled by a for-profit company are the only thing keeping them alive. Every new product they make entices another end user to install crap on their computer.
Once you're hooked of course on their financial stack you have little choice but to remain.
I'm watching with interest the adoption of Workday as a replacement for Peoplesoft, and wonder aloud if someone will unseat them in their related product groups.
As far as Workday, I'm intrigued that someone would chosen Adobe Flex as a platform. (we just converted last year)
Buncha fuckin assholes if you ask me...
While you're in it, add