There are rational reasons to prefer authoritative government, especially in changing countries, especially without a tradition of democracy. I have no idea why GMail was censored, but I´m assuming it has to do with heightened security protocol. It is likely that some people in China used the service for nefarious purposes (local official corruption is probable) and that the authorities wanted to keep opposable proof, in order be able to show to increasingly disgruntled citizenry that the rule of law can work -- as opposed to the often preferred option of social-media fuelled lynching.
My point is not that banning GMail is good, but that you are judging an institution without knowing their intent. They could be wrong, but not for the reason that you do not give them.
I certainly agree on the balkanisation, though. Ebbs and flows, I hope.
As for your more general point: Western values are great in Western countries; Western inequality in a country with red envelopes and little over-sight of officials is less ideal. Western alcohol is fun in a fancy restaurant with a French ceremonial Maitre d´ that frowns on excess; it is less ideal in a country without a tradition for moderation. The subsequent lash out can be amusing where a hen party ends trying to act sober and cute in front of a jaded cop; it is far less so to see your touchy-feely employer come home drunk in a country where domestic employment is akin to servitude. I'm obviously exaggerating, but Westernisation (and simultaneous but unrelated issues, like working class disempowerment) has left many people wondering, and they found reasons to doubt.
If you are a traveller who mainly faces empowered businessmen , it is difficult to conceive good examples of this -- but many stories would make you pause. Vice.com (has a very criticisable editorial line, but) offers a unique look in many such examples: I remember a couple about plastic surgery that were very telling (and unexpected for people more used to judging people´s coding style on a screen than their physique on a dance floor), one in Korea the other in the Caribbean. International style magazine has lead Koreans to go under the knife and unreasonable amount of time to look more Westerners: nothing to do with SMTP in theory, but enough to let family members amalgamate Yahoo! editorial choices and their shame over a daughter´s botched operation. I have no idea what aspect of Western world leads women in the Central America to inject motor oil in their… Well, try to look for that episode if you care and care stand far more than gore (it is incredibly gross) but in it, you'll hear people accuse International standards and social media a lot. It is sad for Westerners living in an Emirate when that only bar where you can kiss in public without being scorned gets closed for `indecency´ but I suspect there are more nefarious things that have happened there than diplomats remembering their honeymoon in Paris. My experience is pushing on "What do you mean by corrupt Western values?" doesn't usually lead to a detailed description of a working democracy.
The claim that democracy and "Western values" would not work well in China due to cultural reasons is weakened by the fact that it seems to be doing fine in Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, which have very similar cultural backgrounds.
I am not familiar with a millenia-old tradition of directly paying cash to magistrate and officials in either Korea or Japan. Taiwan native population makes a small portion of the contemporary population: the island occupants are mostly descendants from expatriate Chinese democrats (who rejected that tradition and many others). All are also countries that have started democratic transition several decades before China (and that argument of three decades to transition is heard a lot more than the presumed contempt OC mention). That discussion should certainly include a discussion on rural vs. coastal China too -- but that would be further beyond my depth.
More importantly, my point was that "claim" is very far from a single, consistent argument about how 'Asia' works (I do not think that 'Asia' is really a consistent entity). It's more a convenient accretion of reaction to local experiences, often negatives. Western values work fine say, on Pacific islands that have had an incredibly different culture.
So freedom, open society or democracy wont work in China because... Chinese people are inherently alcoholic, corrupt and sexually abusive to their employees?
The honest truth is liberal democracies do not come to fruition in vacuum, Elections are necessary but not sufficient condition for a functioning democracy. Afghanistan has multiple elections, Ukraine has elections, Iraq has elections, what is the state of affairs in these countries. There are subtle and messier parts in Democracy and every society cannot support it given their historical context - most societies have to evolve to certain point of maturity for democracy to take root and more years of practice of it to have it to work as intended.
It just sounds like excuses - which democratic country resolved all (or any?) of their problems with gender inequality, violence, alcohol, corruption etc. before instituting democracy?
In any case, Gmail is just one of many email tools - if Chinese people are so culturally unprepared to deal with Gmail, how are they culturally prepared to deal with QQ Mail, or Weibo/Weixin for that matter? This is just further censorship of a tool either for economic/protectionist reasons, or because it protects the CCP's hold on power. I'd struggle to see this as part of any plan to gradually implement democracy or as part of any uniquely 'Chinese' democratic development.
Yes! I do know about this! One of the things Mao did which wasn't so bad was bring women into the workplace and breakdown some of the traditional gender barriers in the workplace.
I also know about the hugely chauvanistic social culture, the very traditional "women cook, clean and look after kids, men go out and work" family culture that exists in most places, the huge amount of undocumented domestic violence, a massive prostitution industry and a very weak legal framework through which women can seek redress for pay imbalance, domestic/sexual abuse etc. I also know that there's zero paternity leave, and typically only 3-4 months maternity pay for women, a long history of forced abortions and until 2003 women had to specifically ask permission from their (usually male) boss before they could get married! So yeah, I do know a bit about China's "gender equality" :)
There should be more asians on HN, maybe I will create a version of HN specially for Asians, the amount of western anti-chinese vitriol is disgusting, I just gave you an upload, good luck.
My point is not that banning GMail is good, but that you are judging an institution without knowing their intent. They could be wrong, but not for the reason that you do not give them.
I certainly agree on the balkanisation, though. Ebbs and flows, I hope.
As for your more general point: Western values are great in Western countries; Western inequality in a country with red envelopes and little over-sight of officials is less ideal. Western alcohol is fun in a fancy restaurant with a French ceremonial Maitre d´ that frowns on excess; it is less ideal in a country without a tradition for moderation. The subsequent lash out can be amusing where a hen party ends trying to act sober and cute in front of a jaded cop; it is far less so to see your touchy-feely employer come home drunk in a country where domestic employment is akin to servitude. I'm obviously exaggerating, but Westernisation (and simultaneous but unrelated issues, like working class disempowerment) has left many people wondering, and they found reasons to doubt.
If you are a traveller who mainly faces empowered businessmen , it is difficult to conceive good examples of this -- but many stories would make you pause. Vice.com (has a very criticisable editorial line, but) offers a unique look in many such examples: I remember a couple about plastic surgery that were very telling (and unexpected for people more used to judging people´s coding style on a screen than their physique on a dance floor), one in Korea the other in the Caribbean. International style magazine has lead Koreans to go under the knife and unreasonable amount of time to look more Westerners: nothing to do with SMTP in theory, but enough to let family members amalgamate Yahoo! editorial choices and their shame over a daughter´s botched operation. I have no idea what aspect of Western world leads women in the Central America to inject motor oil in their… Well, try to look for that episode if you care and care stand far more than gore (it is incredibly gross) but in it, you'll hear people accuse International standards and social media a lot. It is sad for Westerners living in an Emirate when that only bar where you can kiss in public without being scorned gets closed for `indecency´ but I suspect there are more nefarious things that have happened there than diplomats remembering their honeymoon in Paris. My experience is pushing on "What do you mean by corrupt Western values?" doesn't usually lead to a detailed description of a working democracy.