On: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

[mikeash]

You (like so many others, sadly) assume torture is actually effective, and that objections to its use rest solely on immorality.

I object to torture on moral grounds. I also object to it on practical grounds. It doesn't work.

Since both of those objections point in the same direction, the solution is completely clear.

[cyorir → mikeash]

Certainly, I accept your objection on practical grounds, but cannot quite accept the objection on moral grounds.

If something doesn't work, then don't do it. Hiroshima was an extreme example of that. By August the political establishment in Japan was split, with consensus moving rapidly to peace out of the war because by mid 1945 the industrial centers of Osaka and Tokyo were ruined by fire bombings. It just so happens that at the same time the government is moving to surrender, we use two bombs to vaporize more people.

"We need to use these bombs to end the war sooner." A fine argument to the intentionalist, regardless of outcome, but the consequentialist will have a problem with it because the atomic bombings did not lead to an early conclusion of the war, the fire bombings did.

[refurb → cyorir]

It just so happens that at the same time the government is moving to surrender, we use two bombs to vaporize more people.

They were so close to surrendering that the US had to drop two atomic bombs on Japan?

[rqebmm → mikeash]

This has also been stated by many interrogation professionals, so it's not like it's just uninformed civilians running around saying "torture doesn't work, so don't use it"

[sigzero → rqebmm]

I hate torture. One of the problems is that many interrogation professionals also say it works.

[pluma → sigzero]

To be fair, it's a lot easier to just rationalize what you're doing than to admit you've been doing unspeakable things to humans for no real benefit.