Maybe he meant "After you have looked around, interviewed a few places, done your due diligence, are sure working for X is a better option, and have an offer in hand".
To do otherwise is grossly unwise; at best you're cutting your earnings and weakening your bargaining position for the next job, and any additional time taken to look for something you especially are interested further weakens it ("I see here you worked with Y until two months ago. What have you been doing since?" "Job hunting" - not a good position to be in). A worse case, you end up feeling the pinch of a lack of paycheck and jumping into the first thing that seems tolerable, rather than something that seems ideal. And a worst case is not being able to find anything -at all-. Unlikely in our industry, at this time, admittedly, but I've seen it happen to those in other technical industries.
In short, by all means, leave a bad startup. But not just for anything; find something that seems more promising, else you're just making things worse for yourself.
Sometimes "Now" can be the solution. Yes, being able to first choose where to go can be good. But many people might not realize how toxic a certain environment can be for them and the process of finding something else might be a very good reason to end up never leaving. In that case, now, is the solution. It is more likely that you will find something better and you will also be in a better mental state without the worry of the environment you are in every day.
As for "What have you been doing since?" this is all about how good you are at "modifying reality", Job Hunting is clearly a bad answer but "I took some time to work on some personal project and focus on reordering some stuff in my life, now I have sorted it and I am looking forward to my next challenge." Might be better.
I'm all for career safety, but I agree that sometimes it's "now or never".
When you are in full-time employment, Stockholm Syndrome sets in very fast, and alternatives start to appear less appealing as your mind and body adjust themselves to your current position and lifestyle. I am experiencing this and it is insidious. I think if I stay too long I will be stuck forever. People underestimate the impact their environment and schedule have on their thinking.
Change the environment to change the person. If you're stuck somewhere you don't want to be but you aren't sure where to go, just go anywhere else, and as your cognitive patterns alter, you may find a place for yourself.
Meh, that's what the MBAs want you to think. In reality it actually shows backbone and the personal beneficial psychological effects are probably measurable as well.
Now, it's probably not such a great idea to up and quit if you are the sole income for your family but if you are in your late 20's going through the "awakening" phase of technology work it's not such a bad idea, and I speak from experience.
I'd say in your hypothetical scenario an answer of "Job hunting" is probably the worst response, and ideally you'd come up with something better like traveling, building up a simulation framework for hobby X, presenting at conferences on topic Y, etc.
"Meh, that's what the MBAs want you to think. In reality it actually shows backbone and the personal beneficial psychological effects are probably measurable as well."
Except, as a job hunter on the market, you're not going to be dealing with "MBAs." You're going to be dealing with recruiters, HR employees, and their various filters. Gaps in your resume don't agree with these filters. At the very least, they need to be explained -- and the first two or three times anyone at any company looks at your resume, you won't be there to explain it.
It's never a great idea to quit a job without another one lined up. I realize the job market for developers right now is white hot, and sure, you can always land another job without too much difficulty. But landing a good job is another matter altogether.
(At this point, someone usually chimes in with a comment to this effect: "Any company worth working for / any job that's truly good / doesn't have some crappy HR filter and process guarding the way!" That's naive. Wishful thinking. Engage with the world as it actually is, not as you'd like it to be.)
> It's never a great idea to quit a job without another one lined up. I realize the job market for developers right now is white hot, and sure, you can always land another job without too much difficulty. But landing a good job is another matter altogether.
That's like... your opinion man.
But really lets take it easy on saying never. I hope my post didn't come across as saying you should always quit your job with nothing lined up, but I hope we can see that the attitude of never quitting unless you have a job lined up is... unhealthy.
I suppose "MBAs" was a confusing catch all I was using to capture such departments as recruiting and HR, however my point stands, that is a narrative pushed by our keepers that doesn't bear out.
And I'm not sure why landing a good job is another matter altogether. Typically the best places to work have a respect for sabbaticals, leaving toxic work environments, focusing on personal growth etc and that certainly has been the case in my experience, and I'm nobody special.
> I hope my post didn't come across as saying you should always quit your job with nothing lined up, but I hope we can see that the attitude of never quitting unless you have a job lined up is... unhealthy.
Not as unhealthy as an extended bout of unemployment.
> And I'm not sure why landing a good job is another matter altogether. Typically the best places to work have a respect for sabbaticals, leaving toxic work environments, focusing on personal growth etc and that certainly has been the case in my experience, and I'm nobody special.
For software engineers who are not in a particular subset (Subset here is defined by skillset and personality type.) and in particular geographical areas, these places are unicorns. I have yet to encounter one from Dallas. Note that I said "from", not "in"; my experience is that many companies that are probably in the "great places to work" category are painfully myopic with regards to talent pools.
I appreciate a good Lebowski quote, so props on that one. :)
Is my use of "never" a bit much? Ok, fine. Let's dial that back to "rarely." It's rarely a good idea to quit a job without another one lined up. That is true for precisely the reasons you articulate here:
"a narrative pushed by our keepers that doesn't bear out."
So you admit the presence of "keepers," i.e., HR folks and their processes. These keepers exercise a lot of power in the job market, and they stand guard over many (most?) jobs out there. Bad ones and good ones. Most job-seekers will have to deal with their processes when looking for jobs.
"Typically the best places to work have a respect for sabbaticals, leaving toxic work environments, focusing on personal growth etc and that certainly has been the case in my experience, and I'm nobody special."
Sure, but getting into those companies in the first place often involves a resume screen by an HR type. Companies can be amazing, progressive, intellectually stimulating places to work, and still be guarded by a gatekeeper who either isn't equipped for, doesn't care to, or doesn't have the time to mentally process any abnormalities on a resume.
My point isn't so much that gaps on a resume are absolutely and necessarily career-killing. Far from it. Rather, my point is that it's generally a good idea to minimize them. Such as lining up something else before leaving one's current job. Again, this is because the world works a certain way. It's not a "narrative" being "pushed" by anyone. It's the unfortunate reality of the job market. (The effect is magnified at least tenfold for non-developers, too. But that's a different story.)
I realize there are exceptions here. Developers are in incredible demand right now, and can thus afford to do things (such as quitting without a gig lined up) that non-developers usually can't. And then there are the folks who are connected enough to land a job whenever, wherever. I would advise anyone at a job he hates, thinking about quitting, to consider where he falls on these dimensions. Are you the kind of job-seeker who draws a lot of water in this town? If so, great. If not, stay sharp. Look before you leap; that's all I'm saying.
It's very hard to go against this advice. So hard that many people stay in jobs that make them utterly miserable and cause them to miss better opportunities. I've watch my ex-colleagues take pay-cuts and benefit-cuts because they can't go against this advice.
I always quit as soon as I want to and on reflection I'm always glad that I did.
If you're in a job that's not right, and you're a flexible and skilled worker, it's self-evident that there's something better.
If you can't imagine anything you could fill your time with for 2 months out of work, your current job might just be giving you a paper-thin facade of employability, and you should be worried.
Of course on reflection you're always glad you did; you found something else quickly. If you instead went a couple months without anything, you'd feel differently. That speaks more about the history of the market for devs, not about the wisdom in quitting abruptly.
A flexible and skilled worker? You mean a dev in a tech hub, or at least one who is willing to move. Once you start looking at people who aren't developers, who don't live in an area filled to the brim with jobs for their industry, and who don't want to move, this advice is -terrible-.
In general, even if you're certain you can line up something better quickly...will another couple weeks where you are kill you? As even if you're right, that means you still have a safety net, aren't going to be pressured to take something that isn't right for you, and are going to still be making money, with no gaps in employment history. And if you're wrong, you won't find yourself unemployed.
>Of course on reflection you're always glad you did; you found something else quickly.
Not really, no. On at least one occasion, I've been desperate and taken terrible jobs to cover my rent. I learned a lot more from the experience than I would have staying in my dead-end job that was over for me.
>A flexible and skilled worker? You mean a dev in a tech hub
Not really, no.
>"will another couple weeks where you are kill you?"
Not really, no.
But if you can't quit for the sake of this couple of weeks, why will you be able to quit for the following couple of weeks, and the couple of weeks after that?
It has to be a personal decision but I observe that people are happier when they ignore risk-averse advice that only permits already-powerful employers to behave very badly, and try the contrary.
It's a personal decision that's hard to come up with hard and fast rules for. I know for me, every time I've found myself suddenly without income, I've been able to bounce back faster than if I'd been in the position of having to juggle a job hunt with my job.
I would probably be much more willing to leave a startup at the drop of a hat over a safer and more stable corporate job like the one I'm at now. A corporate job has a history and a set culture that's predictable and not quite as subject to the whims and emotions of those at the top. A startup can get real hellish real quickly.
I quit my job last week, with nothing in particular to go to (luckily I have a little runaway).
I guess time will tell if it was the right decision, but it is a personal one. Startups can be a nightmare, burn you out and cause serious personal issues. Sometimes staying just to have a job is not the right decision.
It doesn't make sense for anyone to give forceful advice on this I guess.
Ha ha ha.
Maybe he meant "After you have looked around, interviewed a few places, done your due diligence, are sure working for X is a better option, and have an offer in hand".
To do otherwise is grossly unwise; at best you're cutting your earnings and weakening your bargaining position for the next job, and any additional time taken to look for something you especially are interested further weakens it ("I see here you worked with Y until two months ago. What have you been doing since?" "Job hunting" - not a good position to be in). A worse case, you end up feeling the pinch of a lack of paycheck and jumping into the first thing that seems tolerable, rather than something that seems ideal. And a worst case is not being able to find anything -at all-. Unlikely in our industry, at this time, admittedly, but I've seen it happen to those in other technical industries.
In short, by all means, leave a bad startup. But not just for anything; find something that seems more promising, else you're just making things worse for yourself.