Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Ask HN: Going back to programming
74 points by teekay on Oct 5, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 57 comments
I'd like to get opinions on whether going back to programming as a career in my late 30s is a good idea or not.

I was a web programmer in the first four years of my career; however then I thought I could make more money doing things like project management and spent the next ten years pushing paper.

I've done a couple of side projects in the meantime as the thought of going back to programming has kept coming back. I even attempted to do a SaaS startup but failed to get any traction.

Anyways, at this point I'm sick of pushing paper and want to go programming full-time. A few things are holding me back though: * I can't leverage the last 10 years of my career; it would basically become a lost decade for me * my technical skills are rusty; I'd have to most likely get a huge pay cut and start at a junior-level position * I think recruiters are going to give me a weird look, meaning I'd most likely have to overcome additional barriers when seeking a job

So far all of the above is speculation on my part as I really don't know what I would be getting into. I'd appreciate honest opinions going either way as I have to choose my moves wisely, having a family and all.

So you wrote this: "however then I thought I could make more money doing things like project management and spent the next ten years pushing paper."

What do you want, to make a lot of money or to write code?

Then you wrote: "I can't leverage the last 10 years of my career; it would basically become a lost decade for me."

What have you lost (other than time?) are you concerned again that its the money that you're not going to make?

The point I'm trying to get to here is that you are at a pretty critical point in your life. You've got a solid 20 years of 'job' ahead of you, and you're about to turn 40. You are looking back at your previous 10 years as a "lost decade" which suggests you've made some internal value judgement that those years were wasted? (or only wasted with respect to getting a programming job now?)

Here is the thing, you made that choice 10 years ago because you wanted more money. It does not seem like it worked out for you. Consider using a different algorithm for making the next choice. Maybe spend time figuring out what you want to do, leaving money out of the picture for now, and see what answer pops out?

Is it programming? You can test that while in your current 'day job' by doing it in the evenings and on weekends. There are projects from operating systems to data bases to web infrastructure out there, pretty much any programming 'task' can be done in the open source world.

Now after doing that for six months, are you racing home to work on your project? Or are you sad because its your "second job, the one without pay" that you do after you leave your main job? That is a good litmus test for what the next 10 years might feel like.

Of course if you have steady work, and you want to change, I suggest you try a number of things until you find the one that you want to do even if they don't pay you.

The "1%" are called that because they aren't most of us. Most of us spend our lives living and working and then eventually dying. We cannot escape death, but we can choose how we live. You're going to spend a lot of time doing what ever it is you choose to do for "work", and so when you look back at that if it was "good times" you will be happy, if it was "a treadmill" you will be sad. Choice is up to you.

Unfortunately I can't upvote you more than once. This is great.

Here's my upvote - Great Answer!

First of all let me say i'm in a similar situation. Except for a huge difference: i'm in my late 20s. After a technical university background i started a commercial career and eventually had success. The whole last year was incredibly frustrating as i felt something was not quite right and in september i decided to quit and to start a whole new career as a software developer. Starting at junior level, getting half of the money. In despite of the money side, i'm now incredibly satisfied and happy. Was worth it? Yes. (Note: while i'm married, i don't have kids. My wife was incredibly supportive).

I had to seek for a new job, and i had the very same doubts: am i too old? Will recruiters understand my position and meanings or will they consider me just incapable of long-term commitments? Do i have a chance in the current tech market?

Well, this is what happened: One evening i said "Fuck it" and started to apply for open positions. Companies started to call the very next morning. I had my first interview in less than 24hrs. In less than 2 weeks i had a new career. So, given that i know nothing about your situation/environment, i suggest you to just try and see what feedback you get. You don't really have to abandon your current job while searching and interviewing. In general there are a lot of opportunities as a programmer.

Even I am in exactly the same situation. After my BE degree in computers I got pulled into sales and marketing immediately. Now after 10 years of sales and marketing and great pay I have left everything to become a programmer. Thanks to my supportive wife and an adorable daughter I have started studying java from scratch at home and hope to apply for a job in around Jan next year.

Late 20's and you're asking "am I too old"?

> * I can't leverage the last 10 years of my career; it would basically become a lost decade for me

I don't believe there's nothing you've learned that you couldn't apply to programming (not to mention software/application design).

I've applied concepts I've learned in biology class to programming! Also, a lot about programming is management, too: managing memory, managing data, managing workers, threads; just to name a few. Nothing we do in life is a lost to us! :-)

> * my technical skills are rusty

Well, programming is like any other language. If you don't use it, it will start to decay, but you'll never completely forget it. So, it should be relatively easy (with the right motivation), to catch back up, and then pick up from there.

> * I think recruiters are going to give me a weird look

Well, I can't speak for anyone else (maybe I just have weird beliefs), but I don't see why anyone would give you a weird look. The only thing deserving of a weird look is your statement!

> I'd like to get opinions on whether going back to programming as a career in my late 30s is a good idea or not.

I don't think anyone can give you an answer to this question, but you yourself. You should probably try to get into it slowly, without disrupting your current career and if you're comfortable with it, make two sets of lists: one set about personal pros and cons (did you enjoy it? was it more stressful? do you think you're good at it?) and an objective one (do you estimate your current job pays better? is it more convenient? in which job are you more productive?).

I know this whole comment sounds like a "maybe," but you're the one whose opinions matters the most. :-D

">* I can't leverage the last 10 years of my career; it would basically become a lost decade for me I don't believe there's nothing you've learned that you couldn't apply to programming (not to mention software/application design). I've applied concepts I've learned in biology class to programming! Also, a lot about programming is management, too: managing memory, managing data, managing workers, threads; just to name a few. Nothing we do in life is a lost to us! :-)"

While you are right, i believe he is also right saying he can't leverage the last 10 years. His experience will be useful, but when applying to positions this won't make a difference. Companies hiring developers look for a very precise set of skills (This lang+That Lang+This DB+That pattern+etc...) and while his last 10 years might be a plus in particular cases, most of recruiters will just ignore them (especially if they are from the HR team).

If you've got 15 minutes I recommend watching the commencement address Steve Jobs gave at Standford in 2005.


I was in a similar position you are in and it really resonated with me.

"Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything — all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure - these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart."

Just another perspective: I was management through my 30's, went back to programming in my 40's for various reasons (mostly control of schedule and ability to pursue side projects). I really enjoyed getting back up to speed and learning new languages such as Python, Javascript, C#, as well as new tools and workflows (git etc).

Right now though, I actually miss managing, in the sense that I enjoyed being in the tech lead/CTO position, and leveraging the combined talent of an excellent team. You may want to shoot for that sort of position, once you get your skillset as an "individual contributor" up to where it needs to be. It would seem somewhat self-defeating to spin your 10 years as "pushing paper", when you could presumably call it "leading a team to victory" or at least avoiding abject defeat.

The truth is, a combo of tech skill and social awareness enough to herd cats is a very valuable thing in our industry, I wouldn't throw it away due to frustration or boredom.

Also, do some personal FOSS projects and get your github account looking active.

Yes, you should go back, but the real question is how.

I don't think it is a good idea to throw away all of your experience as a project manager. It seems to me you would do best to look for a hybrid position. Find a job where you would do some project management and some programming.

I'd look for a job at a small company, where their developers are used to wearing a lot of hats and don't require a full blown project manager. A place where the company could benefit from some reorganization as well as a programmer who can provide support to other devs by helping put out fires, put in code hours on projects falling behind schedule, and maybe build some prototypes.

This is an interesting point of view. That kind of role would make my transition easier, if it exists - obviously I have to put in the work of finding it.

The dev with technical chops and 'soft' people skills, e.g. communication with the business side of the shop , management, etc. is a valuable commodity. I think you are bringing more to the table than you give yourself credit for.

It definitely does. My current direct report manager has a role like this. I know a number of people who do some combination of project management and coding. But I think that it can be difficult to jump into those kind of roles, rather than moving up into them gradually.

I have a friend who's just done this - after Computer Science at college, he became a business analyst; spent 10 years as a BA in Manufacturing and latterly Finance, finally realized it was never going to get more interesting or better paid, and quit 2 months ago to join MegaCorp's graduate developer programme. So far he's loving it and really glad he made the switch.

I think you have a couple of options:

1. "Write off" the last decade, and leap into a junior-level position as a developer

2. Start learning new technologies & contributing to open-source projects in your spare time. Build up your "coding muscle", and then get hired into a mixed development/management role (e.g. Engineering Manager; Lead Developer)

A suggestion: don't go back into web programming. Go for a less mature, lessy clubby, better-paid, higher-growth segment, where the difference between a guru and a novice is closer to 2 years than to 5 years. Data engineering (Hadoop, Storm, R, pandas, Spark, Incanter, Pentaho, Mahout) is a great example of this.

Good luck! And if you want to contribute to open source data projects, we'd love to get your help at Snowplow :-)

I've gone "back to technology" from management a couple times in my career and was always glad that I did. If you've got a reputation as a PHB, you might have to switch companies and you really can't expect to be hired into a technical position unless your skills are current. Get to work learning the skills related to your next position (and don't quit your day job).

Explaining the reversal is easy ... you followed the traditional promotion track and after too many years of drudgery, you realized your true passion is the technology. Forward looking companies will now have a technical promotion track and you won't hit a ceiling like the stodgy older companies. At one point, I hired a newly-graduated MBA (at half my salary) to do the paperwork parts of my job and made sure I was viewed as a "technical manager".

I spent the past 7 years doing project management, and have decided to go back to programming this year. I'm brushing up on technical skills now, which is easier than you think, given how many online and offline resources are widely available. Being willing to take a pay cut is important, but think of it as a tradeoff for the rewards of more interesting work. Also you can leverage your PM experience. Definitely do it! Good luck.

This is the perfect time to do this. These days they're training people with 6 week Rails courses and those people are getting jobs. Not senior jobs, but jobs.

If you are focused on getting remunerative work, you can do it. Just keep in mind you might have to abandon the status you enjoyed at other jobs.

Your product management skills might make you an exceptionally good freelancer or consultant.

I think those 6 week courses are more geared towards the total beginner who has never coded. For someone with development experience, I'd go a different route.

6 weeks?! That is the worst I've heard since 1999, a year or two before all the software jobs disappeared...

Exactly ... I can't believe someone can say that with a straight face.

Why? Clearly, it's happening. He didn't just make that up. Nearly every week I see new bootcamps like this popping up—usually Ruby, but sometimes Python. Nobody is saying that graduates of these bootcamps are fully-formed developers. It's a start; enough to get a job and get one's foot in the door (and keep learning on that job from experienced devs and progress from there). There is no shame in any of this, especially when companies are desperate for talent.

"Enough to get a job" is the ridiculous part. If you start from scratch, then you can learn a lot in 6 weeks and code up some stuff that mostly works - but if companies really are hiring those people so early, then the desperation you mention is really showing. Is the USA developer job market really so starved for any warm bodies in those seats?

BTW, by legal/HR definition any job which can be taught in such time (within 4-6-8 weeks) is 'unskilled labour' - i.e., the same type of job as flipping burgers, driving deliveries and digging dithes; every job requires some skill and gets better with experience, but if you can do the job after 6 weeks, then that explains a lot about that job position...

You have to start somewhere, right? You're assuming that all those people are going into straight-up developer roles. I'm guessing many of them are starting in junior roles in a best-case scenario, othewise doing testing or an internship until they get some solid commits under their belt or have their code reviewed consistently. I also think you are applying some federal, governmental definition of "unskilled labour" to the market for developers. I doubt any of the companies you see in, say, the typical "Who's Hiring?" thread here on HN (or in the rest of the market) care much about that. They just want to get the work done.

Also, equating new developers, no matter how n00b-like or inexperienced, to burger-flippers is an attitude that is pretty unfortunate and insulting, and if I ever sniffed that out in a company I'd avoid them even if interviewing for a senior role. Company culture is important, and you can tell a lot about a business by how they treat their least experienced people.

But this is the simplest thing in the works to understand ...

I said I can't believe someone would state this ... because it naively misses the obvious bubble nature of what's going on. ... Yes it may be a free for all, any poli sci major can get a programming job ... we have seen that movie before. There was also a time when there free money everywhere get a loan for, get an ARM for your house no big deal ...

But if I said "hey guys, the banks are now giving money for free, we should get on it" ... It may be the case in the future that there is a stretch of time where that is true ... But any sensible person would have the reaction I had. Just being honest.

I would suggest:

- do not look "programming" as an end, just as a tool to accomplish an objective.

- do not focus on recruiters, focus on what really motivates you and see which companies/startups can benefit from your skills and motivation, then write them directly.

- Having an updated programming background is good, even better if you can show in an open source way what you have done or what you are able to do. I mean with this open a github account and start having fun.

- Does not matter what you will do next, its important you refresh your programming skills now .

- Listen to your intuition.

I know there is ageism, but I wouldn't worry about that if you're really passionate. By passionate I don't mean "willing to be exploited" either. I mean, on your own time you've got some impressive projects you work on.

If you try to go the tired old route of handing your resume to a recruiter, of course you're going to face ageism.

I don't even have that much stuff on the web and I often get emails about what my rates are for freelance work.

So, do some projects, make sure you really love programming, try to pick up some side work, then eventually you'll find someone who wants to give you a full time job. If you're talented and good you can do this no problem. We are in strong demand right now.

If you go the tired route of resume spamming you're more likely to be glossed over unless you've got something really, really impressive on there.

Project management skills and business experience are valuable for any developer. Your time was not wasted.

Regarding recent coding skills, this is not an insurmountable problem. Retraining of skills is something I've had to do a lot of times over the last 25 years that I've been doing programming. The way you overcome this problem is: 1) look at what kind of job you want. 2) Do independent work that you can show off to recruiters and developers as a point of discussion. So, for example, a few years ago, I wanted to get a job working with Hadoop. I did a bunch of things with it so I could show and discuss it. Before that, I wanted to get a job working with C#.

Even developers who have been coding every day still need to retrain themselves to stay relevant for more than a few years. You can do it if you want to: go get em!

Don't worry about needing to catch up. Stuff is moving so fast these days, you're always working with something new. Everyone is in a continual update mode so it's not like you have 10 years of catching up to do. Tech has turned over a 10 times since then. You could say 10 years and 2 years are functionally equivalent from a new tech point of view.

And don't worry about corps and recruiters. Focus on a problem you want to solve, and update your skills in the context of learning what you need to know to solve that problem. If you can leverage your industry experience in the problem domain, even better.

Data is driving everything so developing a data analysis/machine learning skillset will put you into any industry you want. Professor Yaser Abu-Mostafa's "Learning From Data" is a gem of a course that helps you see the physics underpinning the learning (metaphorically of course -- ML is mostly vectors, matrices, linear algebra and such). The course videos are online for free (http://work.caltech.edu/telecourse.html), and you can get the corresponding book on Amazon -- it's short (http://www.amazon.com/Learning-From-Data-Yaser-Abu-Mostafa/d...).

Python is a good general purpose language for getting back in the groove. It's used for everything, from server-side scripting to Web dev to machine learning, and everywhere in between. "Coding the Matrix" (https://www.coursera.org/course/matrix, http://codingthematrix.com/) is an online course by Prof Philip Klein that teaches you linear algebra in Python so it pairs well with "Learning from Data".

Clojure (http://clojure.org/) and Go (http://golang.org/) are two emerging languages. Both are elegantly designed with good concurrency models (concurrency is becoming increasingly important in the multicore world). Rich Hickey is the author Clojure -- watch his talks to understand the philosophy behind the design (http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey). "Simple Made Easy" (http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy) is one of those talks everyone should see. It will change the way you think.

Knowing your way around a cloud platform is essential these days. Amazon Web Services (AWS) has ruled the space for some time, but last year Google opened its gates (https://cloud.google.com/). Its high-performance cloud platform is based on Google search, and learning how to rev its engines will be a valuable thing. Relative few have had time to explore its depths so it's a platform you could jump from.

Hadoop MapReduce (https://hadoop.apache.org/, http://www.cloudera.com, http://hortonworks.com/) has been the dominant data processing framework the last few years, and Hadoop has become almost synonymous with the term "Big Data". Hadoop is like the Big Data operating system, and true to its name, Hadoop is big and bulky and slow. However, there is a new framework on the scene that's true to its name. Spark (http://spark.incubator.apache.org/) is small and nimble and fast. Spark is part of the Berkeley Data Analytics Stack (BDAS - https://amplab.cs.berkeley.edu/software/), and it will likely emerge as Hadoop's successor (see last week's thread -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6466222).

ElasticSearch (http://www.elasticsearch.org/) is a good to know. Paired with Kibana (http://www.elasticsearch.org/overview/kibana/) and LogStash (http://www.elasticsearch.org/overview/logstash/), it's morphed into a multipurpose analytics platform you can use in 100 different ways.

Databases abound. There's a bazillion new databases and new ones keep popping up for increasingly specialized use cases. Cassandra (https://cassandra.apache.org), Datomic (http://www.cognitect.com/), and Titan (http://thinkaurelius.github.io/titan/) to name a few (http://nosql-database.org/). Redis (http://redis.io/) is a Swiss Army knife you can apply anywhere, and it's simple to use -- you'll want it on your belt.

If you're doing Web work and front-end stuff, JavaScript is a must. AngularJS (http://angularjs.org/) and ClojureScript (https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript) are two of the most interersting developments.

Oh, and you'll need to know Git (http://git-scm.com, https://github.com). See Linus' talk at Google to get the gist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 :-).

As you can see, the opportunities for learning emerging tech are overflowing, and what's cool is the ways you can apply it are boundless. Make something. Be creative. Follow your interests wherever they lead because you'll have no trouble catching the next wave from any path you choose.

I'm a web developer that considers myself "up-to-date" but there was quite a bit in there that I need to read up on (notably Hadoop and ElasticSearch). Thanks for the links!

I'd also recommend, as some alternatives:

* Ruby as an alternative "general purpose language"

* Mongo as an alternative swiss army database

* Backbone + Marionette as an alternative front-end JS framework

* CoffeeScript as a better Javascript syntax

Thanks for this. Quite incredibly valuable comment. This is why i love HN.

I am also in a similar situation and I say go for it. I'm a Coronary Care Nurse (8 years and counting). I was previously employed as a Cardiac Rehab Nurse as well and it was very frustrating as I did not have creative freedom to manage problems I wanted to solve in that industry. Like jnardiello I'm in my late 20's, no kids, no mortgage, just newly wedded and have a very supportive wife. I basically wanted to solve a specific problem at work and I came across Web Apps. This changed my world and I decided to build one for a specific purpose at work (sixmwt.com,6MWT App). I did this in my spare time and decided only two weeks before my wedding (last month) to quit my Cardiac Rehab job and pursue web apps. I still work as a Cardiac Nurse once a week with the flexibility of picking up extra shifts when I do need to. It's scary as hell as I am a clinical person and have no experience with the IT industry. I basically stackoverlow, youtube and google things I need help with. I am very lucky to have a friend who is mentoring me in .Net/C# at the moment, I won't bore HN with that (you can read more at neilbo21.wordpress.com). I've been working on my resume and portfolio and I guess that's the main thing to work on. Show people what you can do (especially on GitHub). This advice has been recently reinforced from a great Software company (@Net_Engine) who I met with the other day to help guide me through this life changing decision. So I guess if it is any source of inspiration...ask yourself why you want the change, what is it about programming that you love? I guess I'm still in the honeymoon phase of learning something new, I love the instant gratification of writing a few lines of markup code and solving problems with web programming. I'd love to delve deeper and make a real CRUD app and use databases etc.

I wish you well in whatever you choose to do, Good Luck.

> my technical skills are rusty; I'd have to most likely get a huge pay cut and start at a junior-level position

You should check out my school, http://hackreactor.com -- we've had several students that fit your profile. If you take a couple of months to get rid of the rust, you can reenter at a high salary in a senior role.

> it would basically become a lost decade for me

10 years of project management will not be lost on you. It's a great asset to have at any position. Leadership, conflict resolution, team management, even knowledge of paper work - this will likely put you at an advantage.

> my technical skills are rusty

If you really have a desire to code, it's not a problem. You will catch up fairly quickly. If it's your way of escaping the current pain, then you should think twice. Especially given a potential "huge pay cut".

> I'd most likely have to overcome additional barriers when seeking a job

It's possible. But then again, if you really love programming, don't let "weird looks" to hold you back. Do what you love. It's a good recipe reiterated many times here on HN.

Great answer!

Recruiters often can't think outside the box. But what about using your network to find suitable work. The project management skills could see you as a team leader - not on technical grounds (which you could quickly make up for) but for your leadership and management skills.

There is no such thing as a "lost decade" it is a decade's worth of experience which has shown you the preferred path for your future.

Unless you're starving, money is not important. You obviously want this - go for it! You'll have more fun (re)learning programming, and the challenge will make you grow as a person.

I deduct from your response that you live alone. When you have wife and kids the game changes my friend. You are responsible for the whole family somehow and can't just ignore the money-thing.

Only if your wife doesn't have paying work ...

I would say just start programming in your spare time and then look for a smaller technology consulting company to begin working at. We've got a lot of senior folks who make really good money as "architects" who use project management skills along with coding, spending their time about half and half. It certainly isn't a lost ten years, you've gained some awesome skills and frankly programming is like riding a bike!

My advice is to get your feet wet, try to build something in your spare time and bring up your skills...I think with persistence you can make up time, the tools to learn and build are just getting easier and better...the bar to programming is getting lower and lower (and the need to program is getting greater!).

Most importantly, make sure you enjoy programming, then everything else will fall into place. Good luck!

Being cognizant of project management implications is actually an important skill for a programmer. Nothing gets developed in a vacuum. If you don't have a CS degree, though, falling back may be harder. Pure web front end development isn't as valuable an application of programming as systems and full stack development.

My advice is to start coding on your off hours. If you do decide to go back in the field, don't use recruiters or HR. Publish your work on Github or an app store if you decide to do mobile. Go to meetups, meet real developers. You'll know your skills are good enough when they want to hire you.

What if you started doing a little bit of freelance on the weekends. Make your rates low, just get your feet wet and get paid something for your time. That way you'll get exposed to the new technologies, see how it feels, but not take any huge steps?

If you can afford it, do another startup. This will help catch you up far faster than any corporate job ever could. Plus you will end up with lots to show for your effort, so in 5 years no one will really even notice the lost decade on your resume.

Something in you kept you pushing paper for a decade. Rather than shuttering it, perhaps you can find a way to include it and more programming. I doubt this is an employee-role. Likely either being a vendor yourself or founder on project.

"However then I thought I could make more money doing things like project management."

This makes me sad. You want coding because you're realizing most managers are worthless and developers who can empower themselves do without you.

* I can't leverage the last 10 years of my career; it would basically become a lost decade for me

Organizations often have issues with different departments communicating. If you have experience in both, that can be a big asset.

10 years, so basically you were programmer in era of CGI/Perl?

Maybe ... but I was using Zope and Plone in the late '90s, so there were definitely higher-level tools for web development then. We were also writing Java servlets in '98 or '99 and when I switched companies in '01, we were already using JSPs.

Java syntax did not change that much since late `90s :)

Not extremely much - but there are considerable changes that any up-to-date Java developer should know, specifically referring to Java 6 and 7. There's also a bit of a mindset change from a 90s Java developer to a "2013" Java developer, such as a desktop-centric approach to a stateless web app approach.

> stateless web approach

It is not something the author should care about, because it's very new with uncertain future. Most likely he will find a job on some typical Java codebase(standard approach to concurrency problems).

Very true ... JavaEE is dramatically different that J2EE. The emphasis on POJOs and inclusion of a CDI system allows the same functionality with dramatically less code.

Actually when I started PHP3 was a hot new thing :-)

the irony of your situation is back when your career started as a developer, you probably didn't have any of these hangups, even though you had zero experience. you just wanted in.

so keep that in mind and just go for it. get a job and start doing it, and deal with the pay cut. it's not really a big deal. i took a pay cut when i started my business... you just kind of get used to it.

Why dont u start something on your own as a part time project? And if it takes off well else it becomes a solid cred

I went back into development in my late 40's. I made the change because the tools are amazing, and I can do by myself what used to take a whole team. Also - I'm getting to the age where I can't get hired as an employee anymore. But I've got a ton of flexibility and a lot of opportunities.

PS it took me a ton of time to get up to speed - I laugh at 'become a programmer in six weeks'.

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact