What's funny is that I think he's right in the first case and wrong in the second.
I don't seriously believe that these reforms would have been proposed without external pressure, and Snowden provided that pressure in a forum unlike Drake, who had done the right thing.
With that said I don't think Snowden is a "patriot". He may be anti-surveillance, which may extend benefit to the American people, but his actions are not consistent with someone who is focused more-or-less solely on benefit to the American people, but rather someone who is opposed to government in general and the NSA in particular.
For instance, leaking details of Chinese hacking does not help the American people. It hurts the NSA and makes the American government look bad, but it doesn't help the American people. Likewise with all the drama about asylum with regard to Russia. He put Obama in the position of being forced to cancel a summit with Putin to avoid looking politically weak at home.
But Russia and the U.S. have real issues they need to work together on, which will have an impact on the world at large. That drama didn't help the American people either (and we'll see what happens with the crisis in Syria as well). But it did help make the American government look bad, along with Snowden personally.
> For instance, leaking details of Chinese hacking does not help the American people. It hurts the NSA and makes the American government look bad, but it doesn't help the American people.
Assuming that this is true, the net effect of Snowden's leaks (including revealing the extent to which we live in a surveillance state) is way in the positive.
> Likewise with all the drama about asylum with regard to Russia. He put Obama in the position of being forced to cancel a summit with Putin to avoid looking politically weak at home.
Well, a) he can't just avoid seeking asylum because it is inconvenient for the figurehead of the state pursuing him (what?), and b) the "drama" is a product of the United State's sensationalist news.
> Assuming that this is true, the net effect of Snowden's leaks (including revealing the extent to which we live in a surveillance state) is way in the positive.
Perhaps, but only by the same logic under which supply-side and 'trickle-down' economics is expected to succeed.
> a) he can't just avoid seeking asylum because it is inconvenient for the figurehead of the state pursuing him (what?)
Sure he could. Many "patriots" did things at risk to their liberty because they believed it was the right thing for their country.
He chooses not to because asylum is better for him personally. That's certainly his choice to make, but it's not the 'patriotic' choice.
> b) the "drama" is a product of the United State's sensationalist news.
Nations don't approve asylum based only on risk to liberty of a person.
For instance, let's say that HN decided President Obama is guilty of treason to the American people, and actually convince Congress to impeach him. Under your idea the President would be able to flee to Russia due to the threat to his liberty, and Russia would be obligated to accept him due to the threat to his liberty. That is what makes no sense.
> > That's certainly his choice to make, but it's not the 'patriotic' choice.
> Seeking asylum in Russia is neither patriotic nor unpatriotic. It does not follow that Snowden is not a patriot.
Nor does it follow that Snowden is a patriot. Given that I had argued for other reasons that on the whole Snowden is not, I had assumed that this point was your attempt to show that Snowden is a patriot. If you're saying instead that the point is indeterminate then you should have just said so, as I'm sure we'll both agree his decision to seek asylum was a personal choice.
> You are being deliberately obtuse.
And you were being deliberately outlandish. But in any event, the most Snowden coverage I've seen mentioned on HN, by far, has been links from "theguardian.com", so I don't feel I was even obtuse.
I don't seriously believe that these reforms would have been proposed without external pressure, and Snowden provided that pressure in a forum unlike Drake, who had done the right thing.
With that said I don't think Snowden is a "patriot". He may be anti-surveillance, which may extend benefit to the American people, but his actions are not consistent with someone who is focused more-or-less solely on benefit to the American people, but rather someone who is opposed to government in general and the NSA in particular.
For instance, leaking details of Chinese hacking does not help the American people. It hurts the NSA and makes the American government look bad, but it doesn't help the American people. Likewise with all the drama about asylum with regard to Russia. He put Obama in the position of being forced to cancel a summit with Putin to avoid looking politically weak at home.
But Russia and the U.S. have real issues they need to work together on, which will have an impact on the world at large. That drama didn't help the American people either (and we'll see what happens with the crisis in Syria as well). But it did help make the American government look bad, along with Snowden personally.