> I've never understood this crazy, if not outright insane obsession with home ownership.
And, I don't understand why so many people on HN seem to think it's insane. I'd like to be more in control of my environment. I don't want to be at the whims of a landlord, particularly in the future, when I have children.
I want a place that is mine to customize as I see fit. I don't want to have to ask if I can paint, I want to be able to pick my own appliances, I want to be able to tear down walls if I want.
Some people are homebodies, and some are not. I don't understand why people get so worked up and insist that their personal tastes are correct. To me, renting is insane. To you, owning is insane. Let's just agree to disagree.
I'm guessing that there's nearly a 100% correlation between the people accusing prospective homeowners of having an "insane obsession" and people who live in apartments in SF. SF is one of my favorite cities in the world, but there are a LOT of downsides to it. I find that a lot of the people I know who live there adopt a borderline Stockholm Syndrome attitude about those downsides.
If you live in SF, you have easy access to all sorts of great things, but the downside is that unless you are fabulously wealthy, you are most likely renting an old and not necessarily well-maintained apartment with one (or two or three or more...) roommates, in a neighborhood with a disturbing number of homeless people and/or occasional violent crime, and you have to take the bus (or ride a bike) everywhere you go because it's just too much of an expensive hassle to drive anywhere. I'm not describing the living standards for college students or blue collar people, these are living standards for people who are probably in the top 5% income bracket in the entire country.
Those same people will tell you stuff like, why would you want to own a home? Why would you want to live by yourself? What do you have against homeless people? Why would you want a car in the first place? What's wrong with you, you barbarian!
There's something to be said for those perspectives, and I appreciate the value of living in a really dense and culturally rich city with great public transportation. But so many of the SF residents that I know go way beyond looking on the bright side, to the point of fetishizing the very things that can make SF an unpleasant place to live.
Maybe if I lived there I'd be like that too. It's natural to always want to look on the bright side of whatever your living situation is, it's just annoying when people get super militant about it, to the point of accusing you of being a bad or stupid person if you don't want to live there too.
You have some good points, but some of them miss the mark. I entirely disagree with you sentiment that "you have to take the bus (or ride a bike)" is a downside. I consider this a major selling point to SF, you can get drinks with friends and not have to worry about driving under the influence. Almost every other city I have been to, you either need a DD, or you have to pony up a ton of money for a cab.
Regarding the old houses, roommates, and homelessness, by themselves none of these are really that big of a deal, and are probably pretty common in any major city. What is a little absurd (and you sort of alluded to this), is that we are paying some of the highest rent in the country, for these 'privileges'. However, I imagine most people who live here, including myself, don't exactly look at it that way. Instead, we look at it as we are paying high rent, for the privilege of living in SF and all it's perks (good jobs, active social life, etc..), and the old houses, roommates and homelessness are just a part of SF life.
I actually agree with what you're saying, I was more responding to people I know (and/or people that I see post here from time to time) that put SF on a pedestal, and seem to have convinced themselves that the downsides to SF are actually upsides.
I always ride the public transport when I go to SF, it's a great convenience and much less of a pain than driving up there and around there. I wasn't saying that public transport in SF is a bad thing (quite the opposite), but rather that it's often the only choice.
Like, even when it would be way, way more convenient for any number of reasons to just drive to wherever it is that you're going, various factors (parking, traffic, whatever) make it just too much of a pain. Even just owning a car when living in the city can be too expensive and more trouble than it's worth. I do see this as a downside to living up there (or just visiting), even though I would still ride the public transport most of the time anyway.
I know lots of people that live in SF and don't have a car (or in some cases even a valid driver's license), and they will swear up and down that having a car is totally pointless and why would anybody ever do that and what the hell is wrong with you anyway, do you enjoy filling up your tank with evil every week? :) But they spend 100% of their free time wandering around SF. It's not as feasible for them to go on day trips or weekend trips up and down the coast, or get out in the wilderness (at least, out beyond the reach of the bus system), so they just don't. They just hang around SF all the time, which is a rather wonderful place to be stuck in, but they are stuck there nonetheless. I love going on long drives and exploring all the remote corners of the Bay Area and beyond, and I couldn't imagine life any other way.
> I'm guessing that there's nearly a 100% correlation between the people accusing prospective homeowners of having an "insane obsession" and people who live in apartments in SF.
Ha! It seems that statement is based on... nothing?
I'm pretty militant anti-home ownership. This is partly to combat the omnipresent, uniquely American, societally-negative idea that you really ought to dream of owning a home some day. It's also some sour grapes because of the insane tax treatment home owners get and the difficulty in renting good houses because of it. How is it in the government's interest to encourage that behavior?
I live in a cozy little apartment in Boston and don't really expect to own a home for a long time, if ever.
From a theoretical perspective you should expect home ownership to be about as economically beneficial as renting. There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch and it drives me crazy that people think lottery tickets pay off, multi-level marketing schemes are a good idea, and buying things "on sale" saves you money.
The only reason home ownership appears to be a better idea, is because people ALWAYS fail to look at it in the risk-adjusted sense.
There's very little special about real estate as an asset class over any other investment vehicle. And buying ANYTHING on so much debt that you're levered up 10x is insane. That implies a 10% depreciation wipes out ALL of your investment.
I have a degree in Economics from MIT and worked in finance for 2.5 years so I tend to see things in that light. But no one talks about home ownership that (correct) way, and it frustrates me that there's so much pressure on people with little financial knowledge to make this massive un-diversified bet without understanding of the implications.
If someone gave advice to an unsophisticated median american to go out and buy tons of stock options, or short sell stock on margin, they'd be rightly chastized. It's unethical. But no one seems to bat an eye when the exact same advice is given regarding real estate.
And that's why the real estate crash was such a disaster trapping so many people in crushing debt.
If America had a sane perspective, wealthy investors who can afford big bets on real estate while still being diversified would take the huge risk in buying a several hundred thousand dollar asset, and middle income earners would have a much easier time renting decent homes in good areas.
So, no, it's not about "fetishizing" homelessness or anything inane like that; it's about recognizing a terrible corrupting influence in America and doing our best to correct it.
> I'm pretty militant anti-home ownership. This is partly to combat the omnipresent, uniquely American, societally-negative idea that you really ought to dream of owning a home some day.
But, what if I really want to own a home? I'm a homebody. I want a place to call my own, and I want to make it comfortable for me. I enjoy entertaining guests, cooking for them, and making everybody comfortable -- when I move back to Boston, I'll invite you over. :)
> The only reason home ownership appears to be a better idea, is because people ALWAYS fail to look at it in the risk-adjusted sense.
It's not strictly an investment. What if I derive pleasure and comfort from living in a place that I can customize as I see fit? Every time I rent an apartment, there are things that I hate and drive me crazy: carpet, electric range, no outdoor space, awkward floor plan, etc.
> If someone gave advice to an unsophisticated median american to go out and buy tons of stock options, or short sell stock on margin, they'd be rightly chastized. It's unethical.
Agreed. I'm a fellow MIT alum who graduated in 2005. I know what I'm doing -- and what I want to do is own a home... and in the Boston area, to boot. I wouldn't advocate pushing the "dream" on other people, but I know what I'm doing; why chastise me?
You say that your "militant anti-home ownership" view is "partly to combat the omnipresent, uniquely American, societally-negative idea that you really ought to dream of owning a home some day". Do you find the fact that I want to own one repulsive?
I'll be back in Boston soon. I'll take you out for a beer (or tea, or any alternative beverage, if you don't drink), if you want to talk.
> Do you find the fact that I want to own one repulsive?
Ha, no no no... it's okay. I would certainly never say it's "repulsive" – at worst "unwise". But as long as it's a considered position, and you have the resources not just to cover your downpayment/mortgage but also to justify such a large stake in a single asset, then it can certainly make sense.
> I'm a homebody. I want a place to call my own, and I want to make it comfortable for me. I enjoy entertaining guests, cooking for them, and making everybody comfortable
Well that's certainly admirable. I would add, though, that part of the problem with finding an apartment that doesn't drive you crazy is most of the nice places are on the market for sale, rather than renting. So the more I can convince people that they'd be happy with renting, the better the rental supply is for me (and them). :-)
I can certainly understand the appeal of owning property for the additional flexibility and control it gives you, and sounds like that's what you're looking for. It's the allure of ownership qua ownership that I'm opposed to. But as you say, if you're not "pushing the "dream" on other people" live and let live.
> I'll be back in Boston soon. I'll take you out for a beer (or tea, or any alternative beverage, if you don't drink), if you want to talk.
I'd really like that! Shoot me an email to connect (my info is in my hackernews info box; I can't see any contact info for you).
It's a reaction against the "home ownership is doable and always a better idea than renting" sentiment that the previous generations knew to be true. The answer is probably a bit more nuanced in that sometimes ownership is great and sometimes it's a terrible idea, but I think it's just a case of the pendulum swinging the other way.
Neither option is actually insane, but the prevalent opinion that renting is an unacceptable waste of money that should only be utilized as a last resort is not correct.
I don't live anywhere near SF and I rent because I got a good deal on the monthly payment, I have a great landlord who fixes all issues promptly (which is awesome for me, since I am not much of a fix-it guy) (and relatedly, I'm not that interested in making renovations at this stage), and I don't want an asset that'll tie me down since I'm not sure I want to live in my current living area forever.
People constantly bug me to buy a house, but rent works out fine for us for now. I imagine at some point I will want the freedom to modify my home, but that'll be a little ways down the road, and I'm content "throwing my money away by not building equity" at present, especially since I don't necessarily consider significant real estate appreciation a forgone conclusion, as others mistakenly have (see: 2008) and many mistakenly continue to do.
I live in a duplex in the Bay Area, and I know for a fact that both tenants pay ~65% of the monthly mortgage. The landlord is making a healthy profit every month -- that's the real reason that I have an issue with renting.
That being said, I will not buy in the Bay Area. I'll move back to Boston and buy a condo or house there. Parts of the Bay Area and the Boston area benefit from proximity to universities, and see much less fluctuation in the real estate market. Personally, I miss seasons -- so, I'm not going to spend more money for "better weather".
Probably because we came of age when Fight Club, American Beauty, and AdBusters were popular and questioning the American dream. Home ownership usually implies suburbs and crushed dreams to people born in the 1980s.
I'm not so sure that there's as strong a correlation to age as you think. I was born in 1983, so I don't think that I missed the window that you're talking about.
And, I don't understand why so many people on HN seem to think it's insane. I'd like to be more in control of my environment. I don't want to be at the whims of a landlord, particularly in the future, when I have children.
I want a place that is mine to customize as I see fit. I don't want to have to ask if I can paint, I want to be able to pick my own appliances, I want to be able to tear down walls if I want.
Some people are homebodies, and some are not. I don't understand why people get so worked up and insist that their personal tastes are correct. To me, renting is insane. To you, owning is insane. Let's just agree to disagree.