I don't think there was condescension in my comment. I am saying that if you believe something, you should be able to defend it. I am confident that you are right, a free society is something that is to be valued, and I am confident that you could teach it. If you are also confident that you are right, then you don't need to brainwash your children to agree.
So if you are pleased with what you are teaching your children, as you claim, then why is the pledge important? Your lessons should carry sufficient strength. Brainwashing is the tool of people who are not confident in what they say; it is not a tool for you.
Let me put this briefly: the pledge was used to teach children the basics of what this country values. You can argue that this is brainwashing. So, then, argue that teaching rote math and English rudiments is brainwashing. Children can't internalize the important concepts of the constitution when they're 5-6 yrs old. They can recite them for a while, but the ideas are too abstract until they get older. You say "indoctrination", I say "rote memorization until they can understand it."
Do you think my 5 & 6 yr olds will understand my explanation of what Snowden did, and why?
And, yes, there was lots of condescension in your comment, just so you know for the future...
If you value the notion of a free society (and I am sure that you do) then you should be able to teach that appreciation (and I am sure that you could, if you tried).
Not to be a dick, but if you were one of my personal friends and said that to me at a bar, I'd slap you in the nuts to get your attention. Maybe midwestern Americans take that differently.
If children cannot understand the pledge, then they are too young for their loyalty to a free society to be important. Seriously, when could that issue come up for someone who is incapable of understanding it?
Furthermore, the pledge is not some sort of "teaching through rote repetition". If it were, then why is it not done in social studies or american government classes (you know, like rote memorization of arithmetic tables is done in mathematics classes), why the emphasis on ritual (you don't stand up, face the front of the room, and salute a multiplication table...), and why does it continue past school grades for toddlers? What place does "rote memorization of why freedom is rad" have any place in, say, high schools? Those children are surely capable of receiving a proper lesson. And they get those proper lessons... but for some reason the pledge continues.
I don't think your interpretation of what the pledge it is holds water in the slightest. You are trying to treat it as something that it simply is not.
> "Do you think my 5 & 6 yr olds will understand my explanation of what Snowden did, and why?"
I am suggesting nothing of the sort. Not sure why you would think I am suggesting that.
> "I'd slap you in the nuts to get your attention. Maybe midwestern Americans take that differently."
Yeah, on the coasts we don't take kindly to physical assault in retaliation for minor perceived slights. What the hell... I hope you are exaggerating.
>>Yeah, on the coasts we don't take kindly to physical assault in retaliation for minor perceived slights. What the hell... I hope you are exaggerating.
I hope he doesn't treat his kid that way... holy hell.
No, i'm not advocating assault. Don't you ever slap your friends in the arm, or somewhere not as sensitive as your nuts, when you're trying to get their attention. That's what I meant--sorry to derail the conversation.
>>Let me put this briefly: the pledge was used to teach children the basics of what this country values. You can argue that this is brainwashing. So, then, argue that teaching rote math and English rudiments is brainwashing. Children can't internalize the important concepts of the constitution when they're 5-6 yrs old. They can recite them for a while, but the ideas are too abstract until they get older. You say "indoctrination", I say "rote memorization until they can understand it."
Memorization != Understanding.
Nobody says that they need to understand the importance of the Constitution when they are 5 or 6 years old. Wait a bit longer until they actually can understand it, and then teach it to them.
So if you are pleased with what you are teaching your children, as you claim, then why is the pledge important? Your lessons should carry sufficient strength. Brainwashing is the tool of people who are not confident in what they say; it is not a tool for you.