Ask HN: cost of living comparison

moocow01 · on March 4, 2013

The cost of living is the real kicker in SF that makes you have to closely evaluate an offer if coming from another place.

For single people its a lot easier to live in SF on around 70-100k. Having kids and family makes it harder in SF and there is a definite portion of people that leave due to the extra financial pressure it inevitably puts on you.

Probably for you there are 2 things to potentially take into consideration... in SF 1) child care is expensive if you ever needed it and 2) the schools in SF have a reputation of not being very good. There are private schools but those are costly as well.

The last thing is that rent for a place is very expensive for a place that would fit your family. Make sure to get a feel as to what you'd be paying here. My guess for a just large enough space would be $2800 to $4500 per month.

Based upon your wife not working and having kids Id honestly not recommend moving. Not trying to be discouraging but just trying to be honest with you that it could be tough going financially if you are the sole income earner for the 4 of you.

dirktheman · on March 4, 2013

Thanks for your honesty, it's appreciated! That amount of rent is indeed a lot higher than I expected it to be. I checked craigslit to get a feel, and there were some affordable houses, but I know from previous visits that good neighborhoods in SF border to really bad ones, and it's hard for me to judge what's an acceptable location.

I feel that SV would be better for my family, although being the sole earner would require a very, very frugal lifestyle. Definetely something to keep in consideration, thanks!

rdouble · on March 4, 2013

A decent programmer makes more like $150K a year.

A decent house costs over 1 million dollars.

A rental for your family will cost $3-4K.

The schools in SF aren't great and there is a lottery system. This means your kids could be going to school on the other side of town even if you live across the street from a school.

The schools in SV are good but housing there is just as expensive and you have to drive everywhere.

mrexroad · on March 4, 2013

tl;dr: if you're committed+supported, it's doable on a single sw engineering salary in the bay area (can't say same for other fields). there will be bumps, but if you're both committed/open/honest then you'll find ways around all of them.

situation: - moved to south bay mid-2000's w/ no family/friends in the state - single income, 3 kids (1 then), wife at home w/ kids (cheaper for her to stay home) - enterprise job with a few years of startups thrown in

what worked: - co-op pre-school for kids - committed to minimizing and buying only what we couldn't do w/o - regular yard sales to help reduce and raise cash. maybe sold $500 a year? - if it's broke, fixed it or learned to live without (no clothes dryer for past 6 months, but now i find line drying therapeutic and am pretty proud of it) - most of kid's clothes were either bought used or given to us by friends - learned to maximize benefits of any service or perk, lots of awesome free weekend activities for kids out there - if we had to buy, found a way to get whatever was the absolute best for our needs.

what sucked: - constantly weighing detriment vs benefit of decisions on children (schooling, food, new toy, trip) - surprise expenses (baby, injury, etc) - co-workers w/ similar pay buying what they want when we'd have to literally look under the couch for lost cash to pay bills, or more rather the general assumption by others that money wasn't a problem - burnout - going from comfy enterprise salary to going to startup as 2nd full time engineer hire and being far too empathic to the company's financial needs rather than my own.

couldn't do without: - trust all around, and trust that things would always work themselves out - full support of my wife, and her resourcefulness in problem solving - trusted nanny/friend/etc to watch kids at random times - my wife finding "mommy friends." not as much for her happiness as it was for access to a network of child-related items (clothes, bottles, shoes, toys, etc). - tracking spending like a mf'er. reviewing every receipt before leaving store. not being shy and questioning everything.

dirktheman · on March 4, 2013

Thanks for sharing! We seem to be quite similar in our spending pattern. Although I saw an increasy in our income the last couple of years, we're still living quite frugal. Perhaps being Dutch has something to do with this... We still don't splurge, although I'm glad we don't have to cut back on things for the kids anymore. As for the yard sale: we cleaned out the attic just last week and made over EUR200 with stuff we don't use anymore... Such a good feeling!

ds · on March 4, 2013

I can only speak for SF cost of living. SV is likely cheaper.

If you want to live in a nice area in SF, I would say the answer is going to be mostly 'no'.

80,000 seems like more than it is out here, but it unfortunately is not. A 3 bedroom apartment in the sunset district will be at best about 3k/month. If you want to move to a nicer area, it will be closer to 4k+.

The bigger issue is, most places wont rent a unit like that to you unless your income is 3x higher than the rent, which yours would not be (roughly 2x).

That said- Dont give up hope! The only real way to find housing out here is to come out and hit the pavement. Things go really quick and you need to be on your feet

dirktheman · on March 4, 2013

Thanks! I have this assumption that SV is both cheaper and nicer to live for a family than SF. Cheaper rents, nicer homes and better schools. Is that correct? For my family, I actually prefer suburbia to the hustle and bustle of a city...

jyu · on March 4, 2013

Yes. Housing is expensive, and probably not realistic at $100k / yr. Rent can be cheaper in SV (In Millbrae older 2-3br apt can be $2k / mo).

Taxes are higher too.

brianchu · on March 5, 2013

I grew up and went to high school in Palo Alto, so let me add my thoughts:

1) The schools in SV (not SF) are quite good. Both public and private schools are some of the best in the United States and are comparable to top magnet schools in New York City. On the flip side, the academic culture inside the schools can be quite competitive (demanding on your kids).

2) Housing is quite expensive - more than $1 million for a good home. Renting a home would be about $50,000+/year. Check zillow.com for more accurate house/rent prices. My numbers might be skewed because Palo Alto is also more expensive than other places in SV.

3) $80,000 is the salary for an entry-level developer. Meaning someone fresh out of college. I don't know how much experience you have, but you should be able to make a lot more. Rdouble is right that a good developer with experience should make $150K+. Again, I don't know your qualifications.

This was a good HN article/discussion about SF: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5073439

AFAIK the only bad area of SF is the Tenderloin.

eshvk · on March 6, 2013

> AFAIK the only bad area of SF is the Tenderloin.

Uhh..No, Hunter's Point, Bayview, sketchy parts of SoMa, 16th and Mission all come to mind. Recall that OP is moving here with family.

rtcoms · on March 5, 2013

A similar old thread can be found here :

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1778185

davidjnelson · on March 4, 2013

You need at least 150k to live comfortably in sf.

drstewart · on March 4, 2013

Please, this is ridiculous. This is reminiscent of the NY times article about the woman complaining that she's only scraping by on $400,000 because she can only afford 2 vacations a year or some such.

astrodust · on March 4, 2013

You have a link to that? Sounds like interesting reading.

drstewart · on March 4, 2013

Sure: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/fashion/08halfmill.html?_r...

Title: "You Try to Live on 500K in This Town"

claudiug · on March 4, 2013

numbeo.com