I think the Symfony team actually has the vision: provided it has to be with PHP, let's make a full stack web development framework (like Rails) that does not suck, and create heaps of interesting components/libraries that can be used perfectly on their own in the process!
These guys and girls are showing to what extend PHP can be pushed, they also build a fair share of general purpose libs that the PHP community badly needed (e.g.: composer).
It you are looking for PHP with a vision, line yourself up with Symfony: they seem to have it.
Jokingly: If web development is what PHP is useful for, then Symfony simply needs to be shipped with it :)
Plenty of vision is communicated from their site, and it all makes sense:
Completely agree. The people behind Symfony (and other embraced projects such as Composer) are dragging PHP kicking and screaming into the modern age.
The support and tooling they've managed to come up with is great, rivalling some of the more mature languages. Definitely a good "side" to hitch your wagon to.
have you ever even tried Symfony? i think a lot of the debate is about how people are starting to get fed up with the Java/c#-like direction PHP is heading. symfony is not like rails, no where close to it. not sure exactly where they started taking the wrong turn but it's really going the opposite direction from other languages like node/python/ruby where simplicity is at it's core.
PHP is one of the major corporate web languages. That is why its heading down Java street. But that's not a bad thing either. Every language covers a specific need. They can't all be everything to everybody. Sure, there is a lot of horrible PHP code (specially in the online ads industry), but that does not change the fact that the language works for the needs of a given market. I don't get why people want to turn PHP into Ruby/Python. If you want that, then by all means use Ruby/Python. If you have to use PHP at work, then make peace with it, and use a more modern PHP style. If you are going to complain, just do it to your CTO or person in charge of choosing programming languages. Though most don't listen...
Where "modern PHP style" is defined by the kind of OO frameworkization excesses that the Java community introduced to the world over 10 years ago. It's not a specific need of the enterprise, it's just a historical coincidence.
PHP happened to be the language that websites were written in at a time when the old Java guard came into management positions, bringing with them their failed ideas of what "professional" software design means.
I don't see why you think it is more justified for PHP to become J2EE than Rails/Django. PHP as a language doesn't support one style any better than the other. The only thing that really sets PHP apart from other dynamic languages is that it is a page template engine by default.
So if you absolutely have to ask one of those "why turn PHP into xyz?" questions, why not ask "why turn PHP into anything other than a page template language?".
The answer to all these questions is, because programming languages are indeed languages. People use the languages they know to say the the things they need to say and they use them to experiment with new ideas. That's a good thing.
I don't see why you think it is more justified for PHP to become J2EE than Rails/Django.
I don't. But like you said (IMO, your comment is spot on), PHP has suffered from the Java mindset. Though I do think that people should not have a language do everything. But thats a problem at the enterprise level, where one size fits all.
You nailed it. Symfony == Poor man's Java. Which is ironic because even Java has started to move to move to something more sensible with frameworks like Grails or Play.
I think the Symfony team actually has the vision: provided it has to be with PHP, let's make a full stack web development framework (like Rails) that does not suck, and create heaps of interesting components/libraries that can be used perfectly on their own in the process!
These guys and girls are showing to what extend PHP can be pushed, they also build a fair share of general purpose libs that the PHP community badly needed (e.g.: composer).
It you are looking for PHP with a vision, line yourself up with Symfony: they seem to have it.
Jokingly: If web development is what PHP is useful for, then Symfony simply needs to be shipped with it :)
Plenty of vision is communicated from their site, and it all makes sense:
http://symfony.com/symfony-at-a-glance
http://symfony.com/elevator-pitches