Even before the internet, a determined person could learn about anything at a library. It's been a long time since a university has been strictly necessary for that. Today, at least at the undergrad level, universities function as a job screen for people who can dedicate themselves to an academic program and complete it, providing practical experiences in labs, internships, and clinical settings that an individual cannot really do for himself, and also for meeting people and starting to build a network.
> Today, at least at the undergrad level, universities function as a job screen for people who can dedicate themselves to an academic program and complete it
I predict that this is not going to last much longer itf institutions continue to avoid holding students accountable for egregious acts of academic misconduct.
Every time they choose student tuition over maintaining the integrity of the credentials the value of the credentials as a screen drops a little bit. At some point it will fall below a threshold, and then at some point afterwards the rest of society will realize it.
The credential itself is usually irrelevant, most jobs that require a degree will accept any degree. In those cases it's being used as a class filter more than an indication of merit or training.
Is this still true? My understanding was that that was a thing in the 1990s and into early 2000s but not really any more.
Obviously some degrees still matter, if you're doing real engineering or practicing medicine or practicing law or other STEM things you need the proper education to do so.
But I think for a lot of the jobs that wanted "any degree" to like, be a sales rep or work at a rental car place or whatever entry-level office job, that the college degree requirement has gone away.
This comment has me confused. The first sentence reinforces my point, the second one contradicts it (and isn't true in my experience, many companies want a degree, any degree). Say more?
I guess I don't understand what you're trying to say, especially after your reply.
Here's what I am saying: most top companies require degrees but will only take a degree from a select list of colleges, while government jobs that require degrees will accept a degree from any college.
Protip: university was always mostly a class filter - sure it had other functions too but access required years without substantial earnings, prior education, money, and cultural familiarity with academic institutions, so basically only rich people could go to university
The tipping point will be when an AI/LLM is as good as a human with a bachelor's degree. At that point, it won't matter how legitimate the credentials are, because the jobs just won't be there for people anymore.
For software at least, that point was probably reached like 10 months ago, and has definitely been blown past by now. It's not like humans with a fresh degree and no experience have much business/product sense, which is the only place where the AI might still be lacking. From what I can see, usually "senior" (so generally several years experience) means "can be asked to do a vague thing and they'll actually get it done independently."
For a lot of office jobs, in terms of what people do on computers, this is already the case. However, I don't think a lot of these jobs are going away just yet.
It's really the same enshittification trajectory everywhere: Once it's been turned into a commercial product, the optimization of rent seeking gradually displaces all other purposes.
>> a determined person could learn about anything at a library.
A determined person could read about anything at a library. Learning takes more than reading. Certainly nobody could become any sort of medical doctor without practical training. But even the most bookish of programs still require one to stop reading, put down the book and actually write something. If you are writing something you need someone better than you to read and judge it. That requires access to better-educated people in your chosen field. THAT is what universities offer beyond a library.
A solid group of peers can also provide that. Think of The Recurse Center[1] in NYC, or a hackerspace like Noisebridge[2], or, maybe, a local interest group on meetup.com. I'm sure many people just find it at work.
For something like Math, tho, you certainly can teach yourself to a high level. (By working lots of problems)
It's not like universities exhaustively assess their students' skills and provide detailed feedback on everything. You only get occasional spot checks of random pieces of knowledge or select procedures students are expected to perform. Since you don't know what knowledge will be checked, you have to memorize all of it. Since you don't know which procedures you'll be asked to perform, you have to practice all of them. That's an accountability mechanism, not something you can rely on as your primary source of feedback.
If you're determined enough to not need an external accountability mechanism, you can write for nobody in particular and use comparison with the reference material to get feedback.
> Even before the internet, a determined person could learn about anything at a library. It's been a long time since a university has been strictly necessary for that
That completely overlooks some things
- Most people are _not_ that determined and need something to help them stay focused and committed to your goals.
- Learning the material is only one part - having someone guide you through _what_ to learn is very beneficial
- Taking time off life (work, etc) in order to do that learning isn't that easy. "Going to college" is a lot easier to explain/fund then "taking some me time for 3 years"
It also provides a feedback and assessment mechanism. It’s far from perfect, of course. But in my own specialty people who have some formal formal education tend to have a much firmer grasp of the subject matter than people who haven’t.
I don’t think this is because the quality of learning materials available to self study is poorer. Frankly my grad school lectures were largely incomprehensible so I ended up leaning on written material that’s just as available to an autodidact. It’s because school provided regular assessments that keeps people (who aren’t cheating) honest with themselves about how well they understand it.
That said, how good a job academia is doing at providing that particular service is another question.
If they have a budget, they would certainly buy books on request. As a teen I got my local city library to acquire copies of The White Book (K&R), SICP, Stevens' TCP/IP Illustrated, UNIX System Administration Handbook, and many more. Unfortunately, those books were all "culled" for lack of use. Since the start of COVID, tho, I've put in many requests and they now have (embarrassingly) many current, and hopefully long relevant, STEM books.
Nowadays, I concede that online collections and inter-library loans of books are great (discoverability can be an issue), but still some library out there has to actually own the copies or the online rights (which are more expensive in the long run).
Most libraries could secure specific books if you needed them and they weren't stocked at that specific location. It was very dependent on the library but your local librarian would know the process for your specific location.
The libraries I know of have inter-library loan where you can borrow a book from any library in their network. I got a Real Analysis book this way (no way my local library would have that).
I don't know about "before the Internet", but the physical stacks in most libraries are in rather sorry shape these days.
I've been to my city's single branch, and I've been to the Central Library in Phoenix, and I really couldn't find much at all to sink my teeth into.
I was particularly interested in history: history of my state/city, and history of Pennsylvania. There was distinctly very little "history of other states" to be had anywhere, and while there is a great archive of history that is technically open to the public, its security policy was so restrictive, that I couldn't just wander in there during a regular visit.
There simply isn't anything about technical subjects. You couldn't teach yourself car repair, or computer programming, or rocket science. A lot of books are, like, recipe and cooking books; books for people with hobbies like sewing or knitting; books for people seeking work or trying to pay their taxes. A lot of practical, basic information for the kind of people who can't purchase books at bookstores.
The university libraries are a cut above, of course. My local university has several branches, including a dedicated engineering library. You could probably learn a lot from those. But they also carried (25 years ago) the Rig Vedas, novels from Robert Heinlein and Kurt Vonnegut, and a lot of really old books that wouldn't teach you anything practical.
No, actual learning often requires human interaction and a systematic approach from a curriculum. There is no substitute for top-notch teachers, who are the best resources, and know how to stimulate learning in students.
Anyway, most people are wary of public libraries in the 21st century. Sad to say that most have become de facto homeless shelters, and the sheer number of smelly, middle-aged men with mental illness can effectively scare away nearly all single women and families with children.
I spent some time in Phoenix as a teen and thought the Central Phoenix Library was outstanding. I found many excellent books from the '80s, '90s, and '00s on computer engineering, programming, system administration, and networking (often the older ones were much better). My favorite was a huge back catalog of Byte magazine with all kinds of amazing articles.
It's a sad state of affairs, but public libraries used to be, and still can be, excellent. Of course, great university libraries are on another level and I cherish them greatly. See my old comments.
SFPL[1] is a standout (particularly for their online collection), and see Link+[2] for physical books delivered throughout California.
Do submit purchase requests for new titles that you want to read and think would have an audience. I've gotten my local public library to buy several dozen books on all kinds of topics. They are now shared throughout the state. Although, with access to such a large collection of works, the local town library has grown reticent to acquiring new titles, but they're still growing their collection and fulfilling requests.
I disagree about the requirement for "top-notch teachers" for learning (though they are often motivated to open doors for you..). I had none, but a lot of time to myself. I followed my curiosity through reading books and journals, and it lead me to a group of very savvy peers (some of whom would meet monthly) where I found all the stimulation I could want. HackerNews is a very direct continuation of that, which I've been reading for far longer than the birth of this account.
No mentors required. Just seek challenges to slay for your own satisfaction and repeat.
(and start or join a community. it pays dividends.)
I should say, tho, that both of my parents worked at a great university before I was born (tho neither had degrees themselves) and I spent a lot of time there in my youth -- visiting the library and bookstore, touring labs, hanging out at cafes, and attending events and public lectures. Universities and the campuses themselves are wonderful places to be and to spend time.
Not in the developing world though and not in fields where practical knowledge matters more (that is still true today although simulations and self research help a lot)
