It’s not sympathy so much with Russia, more of a complete distrust of US-led causes for war.
The US has betrayed a lot of humanity with the catastrophic wars it has fought since 2003. But in Europe, the results are very, very clear: many Europeans actually have the temerity to establish relations with the refugees who have been arriving for decades now, and through that contact, seek to understand that the world is being kept at war needlessly.
Many Western observers tend to miss the fact that there was a period between the end of the cold war and the beginning of the Ukraine conflict where Europeans were kind of glad to have peace in Europe - like actually with Russia being considered a part of the European community, where after years of distrust, peaceful relations between Europe and Russia were actually kind of happening.
This has all gone to /dev/null now, but there is still an unheard/heavily censored group of European citizens - in pretty much all of Europes’ western sphere - who simply would prefer to establish peaceful relations with Russia, and go back to actually flourishing and prospering.
Oh, and ending all wars on the Middle East, so the refugees from the US’ wars can rebuild their countries and go back home. Some day. Maybe.
Of course you won’t hear about them much, but if you pay close attention in the cafes and bars and riverside grills, you will hear them: many Europeans do actually believe in and want peace and simply don’t think the current crop of leaders are capable of it. So they express this not as sympathy with Russia, but as a willingness to effect the political change necessary to avoid catastrophe.
> It’s not sympathy so much with Russia, more of a complete distrust of US-led causes for war.
The ex-DDR folk has nothing to do with this. They literally want a tzar and claim the life was better in DDR (translate: got stuff for free, didn't have to do much).
Europe, and indeed Germany, is so much more than ex-DDR.
There are plenty of ex-DDR folks who think we should just get on with the war and start annihilating everyone from Dresden to Kamchatka, too.
Alas, the challenge for those who want peace is to get those who see only war to sit down and shut up for a while. Germans are actually good at that when they want to be.
Well, Europe East of Berlin wall is only so much. But we talk about Germany here.
> Germans are actually good at that when they want to be.
Yeah, whatever that is. They don't know themselves.
Unlike the ex-DDR folk craving for Russia to take care for them. There's a reason why that part of Germany turns right and votes AfD now. It's a mix of USSR nostalgia and dislike of the Western Germany because they believe they are still mistreated, 35 years on.
There are many in Western Germany who also believe that Germany has been mistreated by its allies and that Germany should disassociate itself with warmongering states - such as the UK and the USA - and instead use its economic muscle to bring peace. It would be a big mistake to limit support of the AfD to the ex-DDR folk. There is a rising anti-NATO sentiment in German youth, also.
They want to see a return of peaceful relations between Europe and Russia, and unfortunately that would in fact mean addressing the injustices and crimes of the Ukrainian conflict - this cannot occur, while those crimes are still being committed.
But many Europeans don’t believe that Russia is going to be defeated, nor that the Donetsk->Crimea corridor is worth igniting the rest of Europe over. The most common refrain I hear, is that portion of Ukraine should have independence and neutrality, like Austria. How this is to be attained, of course nobody knows, but it is very definitely a common refrain.
Between the end of the Cold War and the start of the war in Ukraine, there was no peace in Afghanistan, in the Caucasus, in Syria, in Georgia, and in Crimea.
Russian misinformation and funding of far-right parties had never stopped. Every country in Russia's vicinity knew that it was coming for them. In the West relations were peaceful indeed, because all these wars were with faraway peoples.
If you're not a paid shill but genuinely believe what you're saying, you're what they call a useful idiot. This attempt at the apology of Russia, in this pretend calm tone, with emotional bits peppered throughout, is disgusting.
A lot of people who came to the West thanks to the peacefulness of Russia also want to go rebuild their countries 'Some day. Maybe.'
And lower down you say Ukraine should have some neutral autonomous territory. Maybe parts of Poland and of the Baltics and of Finland will also know the prosperity and peace that comes with 'neutrality'.
I’m describing what I’m observing on the ground in Europe: a growing segment are sick of the endless slaughter by Western entities and indeed by their own nations involvement in atrocious wars, resulting in an inundation of refugees. It’s not just Ukraine - its all war.
It is Western wars producing the conditions for 35 million war refugees to flood the worlds borders.
Do you think all Germans are ignorant of what the warmongers in their state have contributed to the situation in Gaza? And that they are being nevertheless led by those same warmongers into yet more catastrophe?
A rising segment of the German population are sick of frothy-mouthed warmongers having the podium and recognize that if they don’t change the leadership who brought only war and calamity to the world, it will end in disaster.
Yes, Russia needs better rulers, and yes Russia should face justice for its wars - they won’t get this at the end of a European spear, however. The only people who can do anything effective about Russia, are Russians: Germans understand this very, very well. And they are turning to apply the very same rule to their own state.
Because Russia has a long way to go to come even close to the atrocities of Western allies. The USA and its allies are a far, far worse danger to the world, by orders of magnitude. Russia is following the Western lead on war atrocities, and we have, by far, the worst stats of them all.
When we prosecute our own war criminals, only then will we have the moral altitude to jump on Russias case - but not before that happens. The populations of Poland, the Baltics, and Finland may not understand their own states’ culpability for contributing to atrocity - but Germans sure do. (Note: see also, France.)
Intelligent, informed Europeans know that the only path to peace involves personal responsibility for the war crimes of their own states.
So they let their democracies function. Those politicians who promise to rein in the warmongers - whatever else their parties promise - are gaining traction because of this fact.
Yeah, the only problem is that you can't really establish a lasting peace with a government that is more interested in land grabbing, and turning its neighbors into vassal states.
If Europe gives in to Russia in Ukraine, anyone with basic understanding of history can see that they'll turn their attention towards Baltics, Moldova and maybe Finland and Poland. Putin doesn't want to return those "good years" between cold war and Ukraine conflict, he wants to return to the glory days of Cold War when Russia (Soviet Union) was a real superpower.
Over here in Finland, we would absolutely love to have peaceful relations with Russia, based on mutual respect and trade. But we're under no illusion about it being possible with current Russian administration.
On the other hand, if you think history is the only guide for humans to follow, Europe will self-implode before Russia gets there, anyway.
Fortunately, there are growing segments of European society who actually want to have a bright and prosperous future. This doesn’t happen with war - it happens by making sure your neighbors are well fed, too.
So, what do you suggest as a practical solution? Give Ukraine to Russia? Or maybe Baltic states too? How much land do the Russian elites need until they're satisfied and "well fed"?
I think the real issue is that Russian people consistently fail to hold their leaders accountable. It's the local rich, corrupt oligarchy stealing their prosperity, not any foreign power. They're the ones waging war as well.
I'm worried of growing segments of Western European population that are happy to make an unfair deal with Russia, as long as it's some Eastern Europeans and not them who will suffer the consequences. I guess from their viewpoint some dead Ukrainians, Estonians or Poles is acceptable if they personally get cheaper petrol and gas.
My personal opinion is that the only way Western democracies can wean themselves off the war teat is for us to direct our attention to our own war crimes.
With Gaza, Germans have been enlightened to the fact that the war in Ukraine isn’t the only atrocity their state is involved in. German ammo kills kids: a growing segment of German society is starting to understand this.
> I think the real issue is that Russian people consistently fail to hold their leaders accountable.
Yes, and I think Europeans understand that the most effective way for Russians to learn this, is for Europe to lead by example. Accountability for European leadership is also a massive problem. Germans seem to be very much more aware of this than most.
Yes, I think Europe should take a stronger stance towards what is happening in Gaza. But I wouldn't be so hopeful about Russians learning from that. The culture of political tyranny, apathy, corruption and indifference just runs too deep there. As long as Russia is that way, German weaponry is needed to defend kids in Eastern Europe.
>The culture of political tyranny, apathy, corruption and indifference just runs too deep there.
You can easily say this about the UK and the USA as well, you know. There isn't something exceptional about the US' corrupt military-industrial complex, except for the absolutely horrendous, atrocious scale of its victims.
Russia can fix itself. I am as optimistic of that fact, as I am of Americans fixing their issues, too. Seriously, Americans, fix your shit. Only then will you have what it takes to get Russians to fix their shit, too. Not before.
Yeah, I agree with you there mostly. There's plenty of fix in America and UK too, and their military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan in particular have brought way more misery than good. Still, their military support of Ukraine is justified, as Ukraine is fighting a defensive war.
> Over here in Finland, we would absolutely love to have peaceful relations with Russia, based on mutual respect and trade. But we're under no illusion about it being possible with current Russian administration.
Russian administration is the reflection of the nature of Russian people. Look at Russian history - it is very unlikely that different administration would behave differently.
Russia is the worlds largest state; Russians know full well the designs for their submission floating in the halls of various Western power centers. There will be a string of Putins because of this.
Russians will never submit to war or threats to subjugate their nation.
They will align with mutual economic prosperity, however.
German society seems to be having a moment where it realizes this, suddenly. Germans really don’t want another billion euro’s being spent on slaughtering children. They want the cheap energy back, and they want peace in Europe through the only way there has ever been peace in Europe: strong economic ties between states and mutually assured prosperity.
Would you be okay with another nations nukes on your border, within 7 minutes of your capital city?
Would you be okay if Russia had its bioweapons facilities located within a strong winds’ distance of your states major population centers?
Would you be okay with foreign investors in your country using power and wealth to gain cover for their genocide and influence your politi … ermm .. okay, never mind, you probably are okay with that if you’re an American ..
The US has betrayed a lot of humanity with the catastrophic wars it has fought since 2003. But in Europe, the results are very, very clear: many Europeans actually have the temerity to establish relations with the refugees who have been arriving for decades now, and through that contact, seek to understand that the world is being kept at war needlessly.
Many Western observers tend to miss the fact that there was a period between the end of the cold war and the beginning of the Ukraine conflict where Europeans were kind of glad to have peace in Europe - like actually with Russia being considered a part of the European community, where after years of distrust, peaceful relations between Europe and Russia were actually kind of happening.
This has all gone to /dev/null now, but there is still an unheard/heavily censored group of European citizens - in pretty much all of Europes’ western sphere - who simply would prefer to establish peaceful relations with Russia, and go back to actually flourishing and prospering.
Oh, and ending all wars on the Middle East, so the refugees from the US’ wars can rebuild their countries and go back home. Some day. Maybe.
Of course you won’t hear about them much, but if you pay close attention in the cafes and bars and riverside grills, you will hear them: many Europeans do actually believe in and want peace and simply don’t think the current crop of leaders are capable of it. So they express this not as sympathy with Russia, but as a willingness to effect the political change necessary to avoid catastrophe.