One big problem with starting businesses in the South is racism and intolerance of outsiders. A key part of Silicon Valley is attracting the best talent from anywhere in the world, and it's going to be hard to do that in Atlanta.
For example (from Wikipedia), Atlanta is 2% Asian. San Francisco is 33% Asian. In fact 36% of San Franciscans were born outside the US.
edit: I do not mean to say that southern == racist. Far from it. I don't know how to measure racism. But for something like attracting immigrants to a city, perception of racism can be even more important than reality. And I am sure there is at least a common perception that Georgia is unfriendly to Asian immigrants.
Well, sort of. There are large Asian communities in the suburbs between Buford Highway and Duluth, and the Asian population of Georgia Tech (around which most startups are based) is not insignificant. While racism is a problem in the South, thats not going to be an issue for hackers in the city. Quite the opposite: Atlanta is a diverse, tolerant place.
Atlanta is diverse and tolerant by the standards of Georgia, but it is a far cry from California or NYC. Just the perception of the entire South as an unfriendly place for non-white people will prevent many people from moving there. Plus, it is hard to attract immigrants - a lot of smart hacker immigrants would never move to a "red state".
Right, but I don't think you've actually spent any time in Atlanta, because what you are saying is wrong.
I live here, and I've spent time in California, North Carolina, Ohio, all the places you mention and Atlanta is as tolerant as California. Midtown Atlanta is the most gay accepting place outside of West Hollywood or the Castro, and if you think there is a shortage of Asians here you've obviously never been here.
You're just projecting your own prejudices. You don't know anything about Atlanta.
I'm not trying to say anything bad about Atlantans. I'm just saying that there are much fewer Asian-Americans and foreign-born people in Atlanta than in San Francisco, and that makes it hard to attract more to Atlanta. (And these groups are a signature of Silicon Valley.)
Atlanta:
1.9% Asian
3.6% of companies are Asian-owned
6.6% foreign-born
San Francisco:
30.8% Asian
21.4% of companies are Asian-owned
36.8% foreign-born
What? Where do you live in Atlanta? I've spent the last 7 years in Atlanta and I can tell you that it's not as tolerant as you think. I spent about 3 years living in Canlen Walk (Near the intersection of 85 & Buford Hwy), 4 years on the Georgia Tech campus. What ethnicity are you?
I can count many times walking from shops near the Varsity around North Ave when I encounter African Americans, they always ching-chong me thinking I'm from out of the country. I'm like dude, I've lived in America for as long as you have.
The area around Varsity and North Ave consists of GT students, who are a very liberal community or people who are basically just poor. Unfortunately you will find that racism amongst poor people is higher simply on account of ignorance.
I've been living in Atlanta for a little over a year and hanged out mostly in the Cumberland area and the Decatur area. I've walked through the North Ave. / Varsity area for various things before.
I've lived in Auburn, AL for five years, and Columbus, OH for 17 years.
I also practice my martial arts regularly at Downtown Decatur, which often means bringing a wooden broadsword. The people who generally ask me about it are the African Americans hanging out around the MARTA stations. ("Look man, it really isn't that interesting. It is fake" "I just want to see it." "Yeah, here") I occasionally get riffed walking by, "Hey, its kung fu master!" while I'm walking to Decatur Square. It annoys me, yet never once had I felt it was racist. I chalk it up to cultural differences.
People have always been friendlier in Georgia and Alabama than they were in OH. If I make even the slightest eye contact, people will say "Hi" ... and that's how I interpret what those guys hanging around the station are doing. Strangers generally don't do that in Columbus, OH.
On my walking route to the station, I pass a lot of other pedestrians or joggers. I have my practice sword stuck into my backpack. I noticed the number of people who say "Hi" to me increase dramatically, particularly among the women who are jogging by themselves. Part of that, I know, is the baseline hospitality I generally get from strangers here in the South. The other part has got to be from thinking, "hey, who is this dude walking around with a sword handle sticking out of his back, maybe I should preempt anything by saying 'hi'". It doesn't always happen all the time, but that's the way things are.
And just to keep things on the level and honest, there were times when I talked to some of my Asian martial arts buddies here, and the conversation somehow gets into "white people." You have to realize that I do not imagine myself as particularly Asian when I close my eyes and visualize who I am. It simply isn't a strong part of my identity unless someone brings it up. When the conversation turns that way, it jolts me, "hey, wait a minute ..."
I remember being surprised from reading about racism in the local papers when I first moved out to Atlanta. I started watching people.
I think people here in Atlanta are no different than other places I've lived at, or encountered briefly in my (limited) travels: the racism comes from our xenophobic tendencies being great apes. We say things to each other about those people all the time -- those Californians, those Georgians, those VCs, those angel investors, those entrepreneurs, those nerds, those jocks, those preps, those ...
And that very same tendency to form packs also means that individuals gets exempt. You might find yourself talking to a neighbor who say things about one of your affliations, and when you bring it up, they may say, "Oh, but you are OK."
Racism is one of the manifestations of human primate tendency to form packs. It has resulted in some ugly things in our history. Trace it back through history, and no ... group ... has ever been left untainted by this. And besides, a lot of us develop software here. You should know by now how difficult it is to define software architecture, know when to divide things and when to generalize them. There are always some sort of special case. Human nature is even more irrational, even less amendable to be put into its proper Classes and Object Instantiations and whatever.
My business partner (who is not Asian) told me about this thread and how a discussion about the Atlanta startup scene gets derailed into talking about the racism here. I started laughing. I told him, yeah sure, I'll come here to gawk at the burning wreckage too.
No. Atlanta is diverse and tolerant by any Standard. I say that having lived in Atlanta, NYC and San Jose. Sure, we don't have as many Asians as either NYC or the bay area, but implying that Atlanta is not tolerant is just plain wrong.
> a lot of smart hacker immigrants would never move to a "red state".
As someone who isn't an American I can't really weigh in on this statement but there is plenty of data that suggests that hackers would live in a "red state".
California was a red state for all of the 60's through to the end of the 80's and silicon valley thrived during that time.
Austin is both in the south and a "red state" and is one of the techier cities in the US. Austin itself has a reputation for being hip and eccentric, however. I think the real question is, "Can a city the size of Atlanta make itself over?"
Erm, I guess you have a higher threshold for tolerance. Every time I board Marta, I'm usually mocked by someone of African American decent there. And almost every time I have to explain that I grew up here, I'm as American as you, yada yada. And these Marta stations are pretty close to downtown (Midtown, Peachtree, Lindbergh station, etc) Diverse? Partially. Tolerant? No.
Diversity is nothing compared to SF. Atlanta has whites, blacks, and latinos. You won't find a significant percentage of another. Even on Buford Highway where the majority of Asian grocery stores are, you'll find that Latinos outnumber the Asian population 2:1. California has a good mix of everyone, it's the reason I love it here.
I don't get mocked when I board MARTA. I ride from Dunwoody all the way to Five Points and out to Decatur, both during the evening rush hour and late at night.
... There are things you can do to your body language that can keep that from happening. If you hate being where you are -- Atlanta or not -- it'll show up in your body language.
First of all, painting the entire South with a single brush reeks of bias. Atlanta is not racist. I have lived here for 5 years and as an Indian American and I am yet to experience a single experience of racism. This has to be plain luck because in the few months that I lived in NYC, I experienced some.
Seriously, visit Atlanta, see how many African Americans, Asians, Indians and yes, gay people lead a happy life very much free from pain caused by bias over here.
If you really want to fight racism, please at least praise the lack of bias and openness in a community when you see it. Painting these with the same brush and giving them no credit for their openness guarantees that they will die away.
I am speaking from the experience of having lived in Ohio, North Carolina, and San Francisco. The proximity to Asia is definitely another factor, but there is definitely at least a perception of racism in the South that discourages Asian and foreigners from moving there.
Even though you are wrong, and speak from inexperience and prejudice, your opinion does point out something important: people like you have a prejudice against Atlanta as 'backwards' because it is in a region with different social problems than you are used to.
As an Asian who has lived in Atlanta for 7 years, I can definitely tell you that it's not friendly to live there as an Asian. Well, it's better than some places, but it's definitely crappy compared to the Bay Area or Boston.
I wouldn't say that Atlanta is backwards. I am only confident of saying that a perception of unfriendliness to Asians and foreign-born people prevents many people from those groups from moving there.
So, I'm open to being proven wrong here. And I'm having a hard time finding any hard data either for or against this. Is there really a perception among Asians and foreigners that Atlanta is an unfriendly place?
The closest thing I can find to data is demographics. But the size of a population is only somewhat correlated to tolerance. I can find some polls but they don't have much data. Any other thoughts?
There are stop overs and other accumulated delays. In some cases (depending on the route you end up with) there are additional security checkpoints.
For instance, JFK to Nagoya (Japan) to Manila means arriving early at JFK, going through security, then flying to Nagoya, where you again have to go through security and then wait 2-3 hours, then on to Manila. Remember, delays accumulate.
I lived in Atlanta for 10 years (went to school at Georgia Tech). I moved there when the population just hit 2MM; now its 5.5MM!!...back in the day when you would expect it to be _more_ racist.
I am now married to a Chinese lady. I've lived in Shanghai the last 9 years. I wouldn't worry at all abut moving my wife and 4-year-old "hybrid" son to Atlanta. Neither would I worry about moving them to my very small home town in south Georgia.
I lived in Atlanta for 7 years. (went to school at Georgia Tech too). I moved there when the population hit 3M. Honestly, I did not like the startup scene there, I moved out and now live in the Bay Area. I'm an Asian American and there really is no diversity unless you live on Buford Hwy... at least nothing compared to living in SF/Bay Area. You don't notice the racism there until you move out. People here in the bay area don't really care where you're from or what's your background. It's incredibly refreshing!
If you're white, you probably don't notice the racism. If you're not white, I'm sure you'd notice it. The African American population in Atlanta often think that all Asians living there came from oversees.
It makes sense that someone who has lived in Georgia wouldn't mind moving back there. What about the Chinese people you have met in Shanghai? Would they move to Atlanta? Those are the people that must be convinced in order to make Atlanta into the next Silicon Valley.
I don't think shanghai folk would be happy anywhere but shanghai ;).
I do not feel that Atlanta has all the requirements of a Silicon Valley. Atlanta does lack diversity on that level. But as for racism and for the ability for someone to be an entrepreneur? I think its ok if your the type to go out and find the people that you fit in with. I started my first company in Atlanta during college and did well. I'm not moving back to Atlanta because its too big for me; as are Shanghai and Silicon Valley. I've decided I like small towns: fresh air, less than 5 minute commute to anywhere in town, etc...
If you are a small internet company, self funded, and don't expect to ever be able to get VC, small towns may have the stability and peace required to go the distance. But thats all off topic ;). fyi, I'm in Tepoztlan, Mexico at the moment, arrived 3 days ago. I needed a few months out of Shanghai after all those years. So I'm sitting in a quite garden next the mountain and getting more quality work done than I have in quite some time...peace ;)
I do agree that if someone is seeking out a tolerant place, they're probably going to rule out the South based on the way it's typically caricatured. California has the opposite reputation, though I don't think it really deserves it.
For example (from Wikipedia), Atlanta is 2% Asian. San Francisco is 33% Asian. In fact 36% of San Franciscans were born outside the US.
edit: I do not mean to say that southern == racist. Far from it. I don't know how to measure racism. But for something like attracting immigrants to a city, perception of racism can be even more important than reality. And I am sure there is at least a common perception that Georgia is unfriendly to Asian immigrants.