I think they are doing us a disservice by perpetuating this focus on intellectual "property" [1] in regard to AI.
The real issue with Anthropic, OpenAI etc. is not that they have used all of our public knowledge for training their LLMs. Creating new work from old and learning from prior generations is what we all do. The issue is that they want to claim all of the benefits for themselves. They are standing on the shoulders of giants and have contributed an inch themselves, yet want to privatize the power of the whole giant. We shouldn't let them "own" these models.
The influence on society by AI is so novel that it's reasonable to craft new laws specifically for them. There are a lot of ways to deal with their power grab. We could force them to open source the models after two years. Or we could tax tokens or compute. We just need to agree that the power grab is the problem, the privatization of our cumulative knowledge, and not some details about copyright infringement.
[1] I know I'm going to risk dissent just by putting quotation marks here. But I think for this topic specifically it is crucial to understand that intellectual property is an arbitrary social/legal construct. With physical stuff, there is an inherent scarcity. If you steal my smartphone, I no longer have it. If you steal the character from my book, I... have a harder time selling my next book? Our ancestors have invented copyright to solve a specific problem, but the solution has become perverted over time. There are a lot of egregious cases out there (looking at you, Disney), but even relatively tame success cases don't look good. Society has paid J.K. Rowling a literal billion for her work and still this cultural touchstone of a generation remains privatized. Imagine what other authors could have build upon her stories, if only they were allowed to publish their own stories with these characters. She has not been a particularly good steward in the past decades.
That is the issue, you just rephrased it to sound softer (public knowledge isn't a legal term). Fair use law isn't supposed to apply to commercial activity. So it is absolutely about using copyrighted work for LLM training.
>Fair use law isn't supposed to apply to commercial activity.
No, otherwise there would be a straightforward "non-commercial" clause. Instead there's a 4 part test, which takes usage (commercial or not) into account, but doesn't hinge solely on it.
The thing is, I explicitly wanted to not focus on current legality, because I believe this is leading us astray. This is about how we want to shape our society, not about how their actions fit into a legal system that wasn't designed to handle AI training. If, by chance, all of this was legal, the same arguments would still apply. For example, see how Adobe is training their image generating AI on licensed work. The result -- privatized intelligence -- is the same as when illegitimate training data would have been used. Or, say, an AI company makes a deal with all the publishers to license their books for training. Or a court decides that training AI with MIT licensed code is totally fine. Or an AI company pays legions of software developers to train their AI. All of this still ends in a power grab. All of this still privatizes knowledge and skills accumulated over centuries, if not millennia.
Any word can be applied to any concept with any meaning thanks to the fluidity of vernacular.
Language is all just sounds and markings. Anything can be redefined to mean anything, and anyone can decide to aggressively assert their preferred definition of a word.
Words can change meaning, but whether or not they actually do is a social function of how they are observably used.
Words can also have multiple meanings concurrently. When it comes to the word "steal" in these discussions, people generally are arguing past each other in regards to the single definition they're thinking of.
Of course, you can assert that the meaning of "steal" only applies to physical items. You are well within your right to do so. You'd be wrong, but you can do it.
I agree, someone certainly has the right to have an incorrect understanding of that the word "wrong" means.
To be fair when someone tries to shift the meaning of words everyone doesn't just have to go with it to appease the large corporations trying to do that. I of course don't mean intellectual property rights or copyright infringement, you can perhaps apply the word "steal" there, not when talking about LLM traces which are currently legally uncopyrightable, though. Unless we're actually talking about someone breaking into Anthropic's servers and stealing their files, then again... if you do that you can always just blame the LLM you used.
"Stealing" in the OP merely refers to the lack of intent in sharing the plaintext traces.
This is the same use as "the baseball player stole third base". Nobody is depriving anyone of anything, nobody is committing a crime. It is simply: someone has obtained something in a way someone else did not intend.
There's no legal claim being made here, you have made it up.
> people generally are arguing past each other in regards to the single definition they're thinking of.
It's more than that. By claiming that copyright infringement isn't stealing, they're usually doing so to justify such behavior: if the original thing remains with the owner, it couldn't have harmed him, could it?
By conflating unauthorized copying with stealing, they're usually doing so to justify excessive punishment. If the owner lost what they had, they were obviously harmed, right?
Property rights are about control, not about physical objects. Never has been. By committing copyright infringement, trespassing, or, yes, stealing, you're asserting for yourself the privilege to take something that doesn't belong to you (exclusive control) from someone else.
(And yes, "legally" matters, because we're talking about laws in this thread, not colloquial "their life was stolen" type expressions.)
This question is obviously (hopefully) rhetorical, no need to answer. My point is that different crimes are different. Otherwise literally every crime is stealing, and no other words for different crimes matter. Obviously different crimes are different.
In most U.S. states, the actual crime will be a specific reference to a section in a Penal Code (or, for Federal crimes, the U.S. Code). For civil actions, it's likely to be a reference to a common-law tort, or some Federal statute providing a private right of civil action.
In the case of taking a physical object from someone else, most states call it "theft" in the penal code, or "conversion" for the common-law tort.
But all of this is academic anyway. I'm not entirely sure what your point is.
I think it depends on whatever contract you signed. If you signed a contract that says “you pay per minute of screen time but only get the end result” then I bet that if you went to court demanding the screen recording, you’d lose.
While I feel it is morally OK for users to access the metadata of their own exchanges, there's something awry with that formulation, (not-)"stealing" is about more than just copyright or ToS.
For example, consider my browser cookies that authenticate me to HN right now. Nobody even wants to copyright them, but if you were to somehow acquire a copy I'd very much consider it "stealing."
If someone acquired a copy of them by breaking into your device and stealing the files sure. If you consciously sent them out to every person who asked for them (even if in their encrypted form) well.. that's a choice you made.
At least in the EU there is no copyright for LLM outputs, so I guess all they might do is violate the terms of service.