"He completely misses the fact that CSS2.1 has had display: options to do table-like alignment for years. These are well supported in modern browsers, except for IE6 and 7"
haha are you serious? What percentage of people are using ie6 & 7?
I think that layout shouldn't be that complex - lets be honest here we aren't building applications or anything difficult like that - we're layout out text and pretty pictures and CSS often makes this more difficult than it has to be.
That being said I still use CSS as often as I can for layout.
I suspect he was serious, and he has a good point. If IE had supported "display: table" et al, coding CSS would be a hugely different and less confusing/frustrating experience for both the novice and the expert.
I'm really not sure what point your comment is actually meant to convey.
The relevant point which apparently needs clarification is that CSS has had "display: table" for bloody ages and "Blaming CSS for the inadequacies of MS browsers is flawed logic."
If you don't want to use CSS because of the "inadequacies of MS browsers" or because your knowledge of CSS just isn't up to it in relation to particular layout you are trying to achieve, no one is holding a gun to your head. But don't blame CSS for this.
I'm happy to come from the POV of pragmatism. I don't see myself as a CSS fanatic. But honestly, I have been using CSS so long that I actually find it harder to work with tables for layout (as I have recently found when I had to work on a legacy site that uses tables for layout). The markup is so much more verbose than what I am used to now (nested tables are evil, full stop). CSS layouts are clear and uncluttered to me in comparison.
My own experience tells me that if you put the time in, CSS will make more sense than tables for layout and will become easier, regardless of the crappy support from some browser vendors. Whether one wishes to put the time in or not, is up to them.
I don't see how this is relevant at all. I'm not blaming CSS for anything. Who cares whose "fault" it is?
My point is that it doesn't matter what CSS could do with the right browser. Out here in the real world, 38% of my site's traffic is IE6. If my design doesn't work perfectly in IE6, then it doesn't work period.
I don't see how this is relevant at all. I'm not blaming CSS for anything. Who cares whose "fault" it is?
OK fair enough, maybe I interpreted the tone of your earlier comment in a way that you didn't intend. But I think it actually does matter whose fault it is to a certain extent though, only becuase people seem to be so quick to jump on the W3C while they give other organisations who sat on a crippled browser for years before Firefox freaked them out enough to get moving again, a comparitively free pass. I agree that moving forward, it really doesn't matter, but for the sake of historical accuracy, yeah it does.
Your argument appears to be that you are unwilling to make use (or at least very much use) of CSS due to the lack of support from IE and that you cannot sufficiently support IE6 with CSS.
I have been making sites with pure CSS that support IE6 for years. For sure it would be easier if IE supported display: table, but it's absolutely possible right now.
Your initial quip implies that it is not possible right now and this is incorrect. If you wish not to implement a pure CSS layout due to not having the time, knowledge or inclination, that's your choice to make with your projects. But understand that this is all that holds you back.
Incidentally, 38% is a pretty low IE6 stat, I envy you... If any of the sites I support hit that mark, I would seriously start thinking about dropping support for IE6 on that site all together, or at least looking at graceful degredation/progressive enhancement possibilities.
You're not building applications? I hope you are referring to your specific case - Those of us who are dealing with a significant JS layer need to use every feature CSS and HTML5 have to offer us.
That's a whole different kettle of fish altogether! If you're building an application that requires JS then you have the power to completely modify the DOM, reorder elements, position absolutely and adjust position based on screen size etc - in this scenario you are no longer tied to CSS limitations or browser inconsistencies :)
Now if only 100% of people had JS turned on things would be peachy :)
haha are you serious? What percentage of people are using ie6 & 7?
I think that layout shouldn't be that complex - lets be honest here we aren't building applications or anything difficult like that - we're layout out text and pretty pictures and CSS often makes this more difficult than it has to be.
That being said I still use CSS as often as I can for layout.