>Wikipedia gave in 30 seconds (in a link I already gave!) 20+ pogroms in the 19th century.
Making a query and getting some numbers back fast does not equal knowledge on a subject.
>20+ pogroms is NOT "mighty fine"! You are writing dishonest propaganda.
Neither is knee-jerk reaction knowledge. Also, "propaganda" really? For which side, since I acknowledge the wrong-doings of all of them?
20+ pogroms, you say. What does that say in itself? Not much.
You have to measure the importance of those numbers, and put them in historical perspective.
Else, with the same "muslims in the 19th century were as bad as christian nations in treating jews, because they had 20+ pogroms" you could as easily come to the conclusion that the US is an antisemitic haven, what with: "From 1979 to 1989 the ADL recorded more than 9,617 anti-Semitic incidents, including 6,400 cases of vandalism, bombings and attempted bombings, arsons and attempted arsons, and cemetery desecrations. The tally peaked at 2,066 in 1994".
So, let's try QUALITATIVE inquiry, instead of mere numbers. Those 20+ pogroms, how severe where they and how long have they persisted? Were only muslim communities in those multi-cultural cities involved? How do they compare to the situation in Europe and Russia, that had HUNDREDS of pogroms for several centuries, some of very large scale, including the persecution of jews in Russia and the USSR and culminating in the Nazi's genocide?
Read more about the Damascus Affair:
>The Damascus affair occurred in 1840, when a French monk and his servant disappeared in Damascus. Immediately following, a charge of ritual murder was brought against a large number of Jews in the city including children who were tortured. The consuls of England, France and Germany as well as Ottoman authorities, Christians, Muslims and Jews all played a great role in this affair.
Do you see it being especially about muslim persecution? Jewish scholars and writers themselves write that for many centuries jews had it better in muslim countries than they did in Europe. E.g up until in the first part of 20th Century hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in Salonica in peace under ottoman muslim rule (they even called the place "mother of Israel").
Yes, you can find persecution in several cases. That doesn't mean it is at the same level as persecution of jews that was done by christians and christian countries.
>But maybe they learned that from the Swedes?! :-)
Why not? Sweden was a Nazi Germany ally. That Wikipedia calls their stance "neutrality" is beyond comprehension. Here's how they put it:
"Sweden maintained a position of neutrality during the second world war; as such, it acted as a major supplier of raw materials for Hitler's military, laundered the gold confiscated from Holocaust victims, and often failed to provide adequate asylum for refugees including the near-completely exterminated Norwegian Jews. Some Swedes even volunteered with the Waffen SS."
In general, Sweden has a long and convoluted history with the matter (heck, they even had an active eugenics program up until the seventies).
>Bye, I can't take you seriously when I have to quote every damn word of wikipedia pages or you deny the content (well, you deny the content even when I quote it...)
Please don't take Wikipedia as the Bible. Some of the stuff it has is neutralised to not offend anyone, and lacks substance. Other articles contain just the bare facts and numbers, and need interpretation (to be put into perspective) to make any sense.
Especially matters of history that involve politics is not the best domain for Wikipedia. It's far better as a reference for technical and pop culture issues.
Astract: You're a total troll and/or a dishonest propagandist.
It was fun to see your conspiracy theory dismissing the example I quoted from Wikipedia:
>>Sweden was a Nazi Germany ally.
39% of the Muslim immigrants support antisemitism in a poll because the Swedes are Nazis and taught them?!
FYI troll, the Nazis never got much votes in Sweden. (I am Swedish, that is why I used that example.)
Conspiracy theories like that only work in dictatorships, with controlled information. Is what you're used to?
You certainly also have insane conspiracy theories about the rest of the European examples in the Wikipedia link -- Holland, Germany, Norway, etc. (Don't bother to post them, I have enough embarrassing materials if I see you write some other time.)
>Astract: You're a total troll and/or a dishonest propagandist.
Yes, thank you for your deep reading comprehension and insight. I'm sure everybody reading our exchange will reach the same conclusion as you did.
>It was fun to see your conspiracy theory dismissing the example I quoted from Wikipedia:
Was conspiracy theory? I provided facts, you gave me back BS wikipedia quotes you didn't even know how to read.
You found "20+ pogroms in the arab countries" in a Wikipedia search and you thought that closed the deal: jews had it just as bad as they had it in Europe in the arab countries. Despite JEW SCHOLARS saying the opposite.
You keep maintaining that jews had it AS BAD with antisemitism in the muslim world pre 20th century (based on the "20+ pogroms" nugget you found).
Well, here's some QUALITATIVE opinion on the matter, from the VERY wikipedia page you quote:
= = = =
Claude Cahen[2] and Shelomo Dov Goitein[3] argue _against historic antisemitism in Muslim lands_, writing that discrimination practiced against non-Muslims was of general nature, and not targeted specifically at Jews. For these scholars, _antisemitism in Medieval Islam was local and sporadic rather than general and endemic_. For Goitein antisemitism was _not present at all_, and for Cahen it was _rarely_ present.
Bernard Lewis[5] writes that while Muslims have held negative stereotypes regarding Jews, throughout most of Islamic history _these stereotypes were not indicative of antisemitism_ because, unlike Christians, Muslims viewed Jews as objects of ridicule, not fear. He argues that Muslims did not attribute "cosmic evil" to Jews. In Lewis' view, it was _only in the late 19th century that movements first appeared among Muslims that can legitimately be described as antisemitic_.
Frederick M. Schweitzer and Marvin Perry state that there are mostly negative references to Jews in the Quran and Hadith, and that Islamic regimes treated Jews in degrading ways. Jews (and Christians) had the status of dhimmis. They state that _throughout much of history Christians treated Jews worse_, saying that _Jews in Christian lands were subjected to worse polemics, persecutions and massacres than under Muslim rule_.
= = = =
Surely, qualitative information is beyond your comprehension. Blissfully unaware that "information is not understanding".
And to top it, you are quick with typical knee-jerk ad hominen reactions "troll", "conspiracy theory" and such.
>FYI troll, the Nazis never got much votes in Sweden. (I am Swedish, that is why I used that example.)
They didn't get votes, bravo. That's so heroic. They just got a neutral stance and lots of cooperation.
Whereas my country, for one, told them to sod off, defeated the italian fascist army, lost by the German army with lots of casualties and still had a large armed resistance movement while under occupation. Oh, and some hundred thousands of people died from famine --plus some thousands were killed in mass civilians executions from the Nazi's to avenge the local resistance.
Another comment, two days later... I will assume you're not a troll and try to educate you.
To rehash:
You deny all the documentation for widespread antisemitism in the Muslim world - like schoolbooks(!), TV programs, other official media, presidents(!), religious scholars, documented transfer of antisemitism from the 3rd Reich, etc, etc.
Your only counterargument is a claim about personal experience!
My pain limit was your conspiracy theory that 39% of Muslims in Sweden were antisemitic in 2006 because: The Swedes are Nazis and taught the immigrants antisemitism in less than a generation!.
Advice:
There are lots of facts I don't like, "batista". But I don't sell out my intellectual integrity and start lying to deny them. I have some f-ing dignity!
If you want to argue on this subject, instead note that racism were common in Europe until modern times -- it is a phase which hopefully the Muslim world will leave, when their dictators are gone.
Please stop both lying and being a drag on HN quality.
You ignored my single point in the short GP comment.
I wrote: "39% of the Muslim immigrants support antisemitism in a poll because the Swedes are Nazis and taught them?!"
You didn't retract that, you just wrote lots of other text (and attacked Sweden of 65+ years ago!)
that it is just bad propaganda and/or trolling. That stupidity was enough, I have nothing more to say to you, troll.
(As I wrote, it would be fun to copy/paste statistics from other countries to see more of your conspiracy theories -- since you ignore references if I don't copy/paste the content -- but it is enough.)
Making a query and getting some numbers back fast does not equal knowledge on a subject.
>20+ pogroms is NOT "mighty fine"! You are writing dishonest propaganda.
Neither is knee-jerk reaction knowledge. Also, "propaganda" really? For which side, since I acknowledge the wrong-doings of all of them?
20+ pogroms, you say. What does that say in itself? Not much.
You have to measure the importance of those numbers, and put them in historical perspective.
Else, with the same "muslims in the 19th century were as bad as christian nations in treating jews, because they had 20+ pogroms" you could as easily come to the conclusion that the US is an antisemitic haven, what with: "From 1979 to 1989 the ADL recorded more than 9,617 anti-Semitic incidents, including 6,400 cases of vandalism, bombings and attempted bombings, arsons and attempted arsons, and cemetery desecrations. The tally peaked at 2,066 in 1994".
So, let's try QUALITATIVE inquiry, instead of mere numbers. Those 20+ pogroms, how severe where they and how long have they persisted? Were only muslim communities in those multi-cultural cities involved? How do they compare to the situation in Europe and Russia, that had HUNDREDS of pogroms for several centuries, some of very large scale, including the persecution of jews in Russia and the USSR and culminating in the Nazi's genocide?
Read more about the Damascus Affair:
>The Damascus affair occurred in 1840, when a French monk and his servant disappeared in Damascus. Immediately following, a charge of ritual murder was brought against a large number of Jews in the city including children who were tortured. The consuls of England, France and Germany as well as Ottoman authorities, Christians, Muslims and Jews all played a great role in this affair.
Do you see it being especially about muslim persecution? Jewish scholars and writers themselves write that for many centuries jews had it better in muslim countries than they did in Europe. E.g up until in the first part of 20th Century hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in Salonica in peace under ottoman muslim rule (they even called the place "mother of Israel").
Yes, you can find persecution in several cases. That doesn't mean it is at the same level as persecution of jews that was done by christians and christian countries.
>But maybe they learned that from the Swedes?! :-)
Why not? Sweden was a Nazi Germany ally. That Wikipedia calls their stance "neutrality" is beyond comprehension. Here's how they put it:
"Sweden maintained a position of neutrality during the second world war; as such, it acted as a major supplier of raw materials for Hitler's military, laundered the gold confiscated from Holocaust victims, and often failed to provide adequate asylum for refugees including the near-completely exterminated Norwegian Jews. Some Swedes even volunteered with the Waffen SS."
In general, Sweden has a long and convoluted history with the matter (heck, they even had an active eugenics program up until the seventies).
>Bye, I can't take you seriously when I have to quote every damn word of wikipedia pages or you deny the content (well, you deny the content even when I quote it...)
Please don't take Wikipedia as the Bible. Some of the stuff it has is neutralised to not offend anyone, and lacks substance. Other articles contain just the bare facts and numbers, and need interpretation (to be put into perspective) to make any sense.
Especially matters of history that involve politics is not the best domain for Wikipedia. It's far better as a reference for technical and pop culture issues.