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I like em.


People forget that the natural landscape of Britain is forest. The enclosed fields people think are natural countryside are in fact an entirely human creation.


The "natural landscape" is a pretty meaningless concept in Britain. Are moors not natural landscapes because they were formed hundreds or thousands of years ago? Is it natural when animals do something but not when humans do it? Or is it natural when hunter gatherers do something but not when agriculturalists do it? Or is it natural when non-industrial people do it, but not when industrialists do it? And why does your chosen definition matter? Is the natural landscape better than human-modified landscapes? Is a change always fine if the starting point was created by humans?

If you replaced the ancient figures carved into the chalk in England with wind farms would that be fine because they arent natural features?


> The "natural landscape" is a pretty meaningless concept in Britain

It's quite simple: there is none. Moors are created by farming and logging. All woodland has either been planted and managed by humans, or self-seeded on land cleared by humans. Aside from a handful of tiny patches (which are questionable) there is no primeval forest in Britain.


It's unclear what point you're making with reference to the blanket ban on onshore wind. I wouldn't like to see turbines on Cerne Abbas or Dartmoor. Nobody wants that, as far as I'm aware?

I would like to see more of them on the generic grass/wheat/rape fields that cover much of England. That was prevented by the blanket ban.


You can't find a principled stance for a naturalistic fallacy.


I mean on that basis you could say that Milton Keynes is natural because humans did it.


I think the point is more that none of it is really "natural". But also yes? We are animals.


Ecologically, it is basically barren.


What? Pastures? Grassland are actually good for biodiversity.


I'm sorry you're saying people think agricultural fields are natural vegetation?


Yes. The gently rolling fields of grass, sheep, rape and wheat are considered a national symbol of our natural environment in need of protection from dastardly human creations such as wind turbines. This is the 'green and pleasant land' that William Blake wrote about.


I’m not sure anyone consciously thinks that, but the kind of nostalgic “old England” thing is big on fields and grass, not so much forest.


They're one of the only pieces of technology that I think often (not always) improve the appearance of a landscape.

Maybe also lighthouses. Sometimes.


Lighthouses have only become aesthetic because of their rarity rendering them as quaint or nostalgic. Modern versions and their impacts would be largely protested.


I suspect the real reason behind objections to technology being visible is basically "It makes me feel old by highlighting that I came from a time before X and now everyone will just become accustomed to X!".


And I'm like "whoa, I'm living in the future!" It's awesome!


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Where do you think coal and oil comes from? It's ok as long as other people's environment is destroyed for non-renewable energy but not your environment for renewable energy?


Lol, they used to mine coal under that very mountain (until it was outsourced). It's not like we have some insular life. The region is economically depressed. People would rather have jobs while destroying the environment than not have jobs while destroying the environment and recreational value simultaneously.


> People would rather have jobs

Who do you think puts up windmills and solar panels?


In the case I personally know of, they brought in offshore workers. It also only generates reasonable numbers of jobs during initial construction.


> offshore workers

Also people who need jobs. And that's just the case you personally know of. Maybe people should retrain instead of pining for jobs of the past. And we should support them in the transition as much as possible .

> only generates reasonable numbers of jobs during initial construction

We're gonna need a lot of initial construction though.


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Have they ever used that technique in the UK? I don't think the UK has mountains suitable for mountaintop removal - they are famous for their underground operations.

I've always filed mountaintop removal mining as one of those "weird things Americans do" approaches. Probably associated with unusual geology or something.


I think the UK had the none-mountainous version of strip mining - open pit mines. I think there aren't any in operation currently, and I'm unsure if they were for coal or just other commodities.


Even if not, the collieries in Wales, built on top of coal shafts, were quite industrial-looking/landscape-runining. https://museum.wales/articles/1260/Nantgarw-Colliery---once-...


We used the technique until we ran out of mountains, hence current lack of mountains.


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and all of them are horrendously bad for the environment, the end.


As are the wind turbines with there non-recyclable blades and bird kills.


Sure why not?

Maybe it's a geographical/cultural difference, but there are so, so many mountains in the western US. it's a good part of why the game Oregan Trail was made. Before carving roads around and through mountains it was a truly treacherous journey.

US also jury has so much land to begin with. We can certainly afford to retrofit a few mountains without fundamentally disrupting the ecosystem. We're very bad at moderation, sadly.


When is that?




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