Overt nazi salutes is one, but another is the intentional tinkering-with and partial dismantling of the US Government's system to dispense appropriated funds, and act that is blatantly illegal.
There also doesn’t seem to be any corroborating data to suggest he’s a nazi. I’m all for calling a spade a spade if he is, but it seems that people are working backwards from the “I hate Musk” position rather than forwards from the facts.
"Sorry officer, I did not flip you off twice, that were both just very awkward gestures"
There is tons of data on how Musk became a far right supporter and sympathizer, like his support of UK racists and the German far right.
You seem to still use X, you could just scroll through his posts there and try to not ignore the evidence you see with your own eyes
Have you considered that perhaps the increasing levels of vitriol and outright hatred directed at him by the left might have had something to do with his rightward trend? They seem pretty correlated.
I struggle to see how doubling down on the hatred is going to convince anyone other than _already hateful_ people of the righteousness of your cause?
No, it's not okay, and I'm not trying to justify it.
But you (and everyone else in this thread, with perhaps a few exceptions) hated him long before the salute, so to try to blame it on that is pretty disingenuous.
I think trying to justify your hatred of someone based on something the did after you started hating them is pretty "not okay", too, fwiw
The ADL's current leadership appears to be ideologically aligned with Elon Musk for reasons unclear. Here's an article with other Jewish voices, including the former director of the ADL, emphatically stating that it was a Nazi salute: https://forward.com/fast-forward/690745/adl-elon-musk-sieg-h...
> Musk later denied being antisemitic and described himself as a "pro-Semite".
So which is it? It seems wildly inconsistent to me to intentionally make a nazi salute but verbally deny being antisemitic. I don’t think someone like him would need to rely at all on plausible deniability, given that everyone already seems to hate him and he’s been granted immense power without having been elected to any position.
It strikes me there's no particular reason a modern Nazi should hate Jews when there are plenty of other groups to be scapegoated, like immigrants or liberals. There was historical prejudice against Jews then, there is against others now. I can well see Musk loving the trappings of fascism, the hilarious fun of trolling as a Nazi, and having people pay attention to him, while not being directly antisemitic.
You have to remember that fascism's application of othering is not logical, it's just a convenient method of gaining leverage. The Nazis targeted Jews because it was easy to weave a narrative about them, and because their population within Germany itself was so small that it was electorally inconsequential to victimise them. You see this with the Musk-Trump regime's position on trans people; trans people are not a threat to anyone, and are so few in number that you can easily weave a narrative about them and use it to push a more extreme agenda.
You are absolutely correct that modern Nazis are not really bothered by the Jews, but you have to remember that fascists just look for easy targets to hate.
Essentially, yeah, fine, he's not a card carrying member of the NSDAP. But he's a hateful individual pursuing a hateful agenda all the same, and he did the salute to signal to edgelords that he sees them.
Forigner here, one who's family has been shaped on both sides by the nazis and lived through either bombing, or were active members of the resistance in occupied europe.
That was a Hitlergruß, no ifs no buts. More over it wasn't just the once.
Does it make him a nazi? no.
But one has to question why the fuck he thought it was a good idea.
He's terminally online, he knows exactly what it is. He's seen the same memes as us, and knows exactly what that gesture means. So why do it?
That is the far more concerning question.
But thats irrelevant as he appears to be gaining absolute control over the executive.
As far as I understand, most of the leaders of the historical NSDAP (the Nazi party) / the Nazi regime were not Nazis themselves, insofar as they did not believe in whatever was written in Mein Kampf. Nazism was just a mean to grab and hold power. The true believers were basically victims of a con.
So... I don't care whether Elon Musk is actually a Nazi. I do believe that he is willing to use Nazism as a lever, which makes him much more dangerous.
Probably some of the Nazi leaders may have been opportunists to varying degrees, but to say that most of the leaders were not hardcore Nazis is not accurate. Out of the various biographies and books I've read, they're were all aligned about racial supremacy, antisemitism, and German expansionism, this is 100% crystal clear. Even private diaries from people like Goebbels that are now public, makes their commitment abundantly clear.
Another example is Albert Speer (whose biography I've also read), where he initially was an opportunists but eventually became active participants in furthering the goals and believing the "mission" of the Nazis, even though initially (and afterwards) wasn't as convinced (edit: by his own accounts, many historians disagree with this today).
Characterizing the leadership/inner-circle/leaders as merely power-seekers who didn't believe their own ideology minimizes their moral culpability and misrepresents the historical record.
Likely trolling and pushing boundaries to see what he can get away with. Similar to Trump. They're grifters and like being the center of attention. I don't think they have real ideologies. Whatever works for them. Well, maybe Musk buys into techno feudalism.
>But one has to question why the fuck he thought it was a good idea.
Probably not a good idea publicly. I'd say he slipped if he did do it. I do find NS to be very funny because it annoys/offend some people, most comedians similarly will find it funny.
I mean yeah, but he did it more than once, and it wasn't like it was an odd sort of wave, it was a full on parade standard Hitlergruß (thumpy on the chest hand out at the ascribed hitler angle). Which he then repeated to the audience in the front and the people behind him.
Monty python use to do it all the time, as did a number of other comedies. but the important distinction is that comedians aren't in power.
Musk arguably has more power than the president. So him thinking that it can't harm to try the old nazi salute, with unprecedented power isn't a healthy thing for democracy, regardless of who you think should be in power. Do you think he's going to give up that power willingly?
I have to admit, if I had all the power in the world I'd be openly offending various groups. Although in bad taste, it serves as a test to weed out petty people. Further I'd be offering those groups a clean exit to from their own 'offenseless' society.
Now coming to the democracy thing - I'm not sure it's the best form of governance as is commonly understood, so I personally don't value it. I don't imply that the opposite of democracy is tyranny either. I suspect that groups exist that are outside of typical govts and personally I'd be a part of such group, than participate in a 'democracy' which caters to a relatively low IQ - the stuff that Monty Python highlights.
I would think that EM has already reached that stage of no wanting the approval of those easily offended people.
I mean, I don't know him personally, either, but I do think they're correct that he craves approval.
Hell, he tried to get the left's approval for years. However nothing he did was ever good enough to satisfy the loudest, most critical voices, which I think has contributed to his abandonment of the left as a whole.
It probably didn't help that he was outright snubbed by the previous administration numerous times. I think that blatant disapproval helped shape who he is today, too.
I'm mostly basing this on pragmatism, really. He wants to succeed, and if the left isn't enabling that, of course he'll try the right. They seem much more welcoming (ironic!), and much more supportive of his goals (also ironic, given Tesla's position opposing fossil fuels and climate change!)
>I have to admit, if I had all the power in the world I'd be openly offending various groups. Although in bad taste, it serves as a test to weed out petty people.
In this scenario, it is the people offended by the Nazi salute, and not the person doing it for outrage bait who are petty?
Brother, I have been accused of a lack of self-awareness, but man this is next level! In your own scenario you have all the power in the world; you dont ever have to weed out anyone, by definition.
I don't think there's any real question as to what he's doing there.
The ADL these days mainly exist to shout "antisemite" at anyone criticising Israel. Their giving him a pass was sickening, and undoubtedly related to Republican support of ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
Other Jewish organisations have called it as the world has seen it. One organisation does not speak for a very diverse people.
> On November 15, a Zionist account posted a tweet attacking Nazis for being “cowards” and posting ‘Hitler was right.’” In response, a fascist account replied that “Jewish communities have been pushing... dialectical hatred against whites” through “hordes of minorities... flooding their country.”
> Musk responded to the latter post with the statement, “You have said the actual truth.”
Those, and so much more, are the facts. You cherry-pick the ADL, say "there doesn't seem to be anything else", and conclude everyone, including Auschwitz survivors who seriously have better things to do, just "hate Musk".
Musk just recently had to go tour Nazi death camps to do a PR tour after promoting Nazy theories on Twitter. The people on the tour with him said touring the camps had zero emotional impact on the guy.
That's not questioning as in asking, that's accusing someone of something nobody can disprove.
And if every single person who doesn't see the Nazi salute acts this way, smearing those who do, that's kind of telling. Basically "because it's not a Nazi salute, you're just a far leftist foreign agent nonperson" -- okay? That really does prove the point, and being confused by that shows having read zero bookshelves about Nazi Germany. It's perfectly on point, that's exactly been the Nazi MO -- projection and the most insane accusations dropped casually, like "questioning the funding that would make someone say it's a Nazi salute".
It's also been the MO of Stalinism and Maoism, and lots of cults, and thousands of other things. But he happened to do a Nazi salute, so hey. And in Germany there's mainly two main: people who are appalled by Musk's Nazi salute and Nazis who love it.
Not to mention how Elon Musk mingles with Nazis, which he does, and that it happened during the inauguration of a president who said he could shoot people in broad daylight and his supporters wouldn't mind. There's plenty of context. If your goal post is 1920s to 1945 NSDAP then that means having learned nothing.
Looking at static images of people waving and reaching your conclusion is like showing a picture of a plane just before it crashed and claiming it didn’t. Did you consider looking at videos of the things you claim are equivalent?
Here’s what Musk did, twice, next to Getty Images videos of other fascist and Nazi salutes.
Now, if you’re intellectually honest, you will go find the videos of the false equivalencies you’re posting, look at them, and admit those examples you posted are nothing like Musk’s, or Nazis.
Hitler's salute doesn't involve the heart gesture, nor did Mussolini's version, which is why they flip to the random guy in a mask in your video.
But it's all nonsense, even if it were exactly the same physical gesture. There's no intellectual or political connection. No sane watcher of events believes that Musk has any connection to the issues of the 1930s-40s Nazi party. It's just not there in his history or very very public persona.
There are eminently sane things to criticize Musk for. There are great points to make. But this sort of thing is crackpot and poisons anyone else trying to make rational critique.
Well there’s also the pressing of the fingers together, the angling of the arm upwards from horizontal, the straightening of the elbow, the straightening of the wrist, etc.
>in the absence of an ideological component
Do you understand the concept of a symbol? You see, sometimes humans link abstract ideas to particular visual phenomena that impact the retina, like letters, colors, gestures even. Sometimes, even, humans deploy symbols in strategic and surreptitious ways that allow them to maintain plausible deniability in the face of a public that still isn’t entirely on board with the deployment of said symbols, rather than explicitly announcing the intent behind their deployment before and after the fact. You aren’t an alien, so stop playing dumb.
> Sticking one's arm out is not a "Nazi salute" in the absence of an ideological component.
Right, so if someone does it to troll or upset people, but isn't a Nazi, it's no longer a Nazi salute? That's just extreme mental gymnastics.
edit: and that you insist on a "ideological component" is another reason I doubt you have any knowledge about historical Nazism. People followed and rationalized Hitler for all sorts of reasons. It's just movement, in-group vs. everyone else, with lies and violence getting more and more sanctified. All the words, and who happens to be enemy or ally, were interchangeable. Adolf Hitler was mocking "Germanic clamoring" behind closed doors, while he thought in "Aryan terms" and all that.
How many books did you read about Germany in the 1930s and 1940s? Zero? Do you think you can just wing this from first principles and Cliff's notes?
> Sticking one's arm out is not a "Nazi salute" in the absence of an ideological component.
What?
So showing someone the middle finger straight in the face without also verbally expressing it (aka. showing their ideological component, to be as vague as you were), is not a bad thing at all, but an entirely neutral finger gesture, too?
Also: how can someone honestly compare the static images provided with Musk's salute. Apart from comparing static images being nonsensical when it's about a salute; even the referenced images are chosen so badly, that they look nothing like a Nazi salute. Like, you need to be aware of you mental gymnastics.
Of course he did, and he knew what a Hitlergruß is and what it means. As I've said elsewhere, hes not some teenager whos being edgy. Hes been to a fucking death camp.
Does that make him a nazi? no.
But why did he think it was a good idea? Knowing that doing a Hitlergruß has all those connotation’s.
> it was genuinely a white nationalism thing or if he was just being an edgelord.
Can we admit to ourselves that most edgelords are actually people infatuated with exact same movements and value systems? Literally all edgelords get angry and strongly dislike anyone left leaning. For example, you do not see them harassing right wing, but you do see them harassing perceived sjws.
Somehow, there is no such thing as left wing edge lord. And that is because when left wing people act badly, they are blamed as bad left wing people. Edgelord is just a way to not blame right wing people and attributing them benefit of the doubt never given to the center or to the left.
> Somehow, there is no such thing as left wing edge lord.
Your comment is absolutely correct; Musk and his ilk are just people who "joked around" on 4chan and essentially radicalised themselves doing it.
HOWEVER left wing edgelords absolutely exist. Look up (at your peril) the phenomenon of "tankies". They're not your average communist, but rather apologists for Stalin's genocides.
Maybe your comment is more about the terminology at play, but it's interesting to see that the left wing mirror image of the average 4chan poster absolutely exists.
> HOWEVER left wing edgelords absolutely exist. Look up (at your peril) the phenomenon of "tankies". They're not your average communist, but rather apologists for Stalin's genocides.
But that is my point - tankie is someone who is a communist, hardcore pro-Stalin. There is no assumption that tankie is someone apolitical who is just joking around. There is no "he is just a tankie, doing things for fun, stop accusing him of being a communist".
Meanwhile, edgelord is someone who is supposedly just joking. A fine guy who just happen to draw swastika to get a reaction. Someone who you should let say and do movement things, because "deep down they do not mean it".
> there's room to discuss if it was genuinely a white nationalism thing or if he was just being an edgelord
This is what I reacted to. You cant replace "edgelord" by "takie" and white nationalism by stalinism in that sentence. It wont work. The "there's room to discuss if it was genuinely a stalinist thing or if he was just being a tankie" does not work, because tankie is literally a stalinist .
> Musk and his ilk are just people who "joked around" on 4chan and essentially radicalised themselves doing it.
Or rather, the were attracted to 4chan because they had the same opinions and values as those people. They did not just joked around, it was what they believed and who they were. And while both center and left pretended they are just playing, they meant it and managed to radicalize other people too.
> Somehow, there is no such thing as left wing edge lord.
I mean, I'm a pretty staunch socialist/commie and there are plenty of hard-left edgelords out there "joking" about gulags and executing academics and so on.
Yeah, but you call them "hard-left" and do not pretend they are not communists or Stalinists. Meanwhile, edgelord is consistently supposed to be someone did the nazi salute, but the gesture was supposed to be innocent and totally not a far right thing.
You have put joking into quotes. Even in this comment, you are not trying to convince me that they are actually fine, that they are something less then Stalinists.
