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[flagged] El Salvador offers to house violent US criminals and deportees of any nation (cnn.com)
51 points by miles 15 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 64 comments



Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

https://www.nps.gov/stli/learn/historyculture/colossus.htm


Growing up I had always assumed this poem was endorsed by national leadership at the time, or had some other important reason for being associated with the Statue of Liberty.

If you look into the history of the poem, it’s actually a bit odd. There was some fundraising exhibition to raise money for the statue’s pedestal. The poem was submitted as part of the exhibition. After the exhibition, the poem had no cultural significance. Then, a full two decades later, a friend of the poem’s author successfully lobbied to have the poem added to the pedestal as an engraving.

Then, being on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty, the poem was picked up as significant by history books and the media, I suppose, and rebroadcasted ad infinitum, especially into the ears of pliable young schoolchildren. You may consider if this is why you find the poem to be meaningful or significant.


I'm also somewhat confused by it. To my (admittedly limited) knowledge of immigration in the US, it was not really endorsed by any major figure or movement. In fact there were many anti immigration bills and laws written during that time.


Right, and I think the average American citizen at the time would consider the current immigration situation in America to be straightforwardly insane. They were really incredibly racist by today’s standards back then.

So it’s quite weird to reference that poem as if America is in danger of losing some virtue it used to have back at that time, when if anything it is in danger of returning to the actual mainstream views at the time the poem was written.


> reference that poem as if America is in danger of losing some virtue it used to have back at that time, when if anything it is in danger of returning to the actual mainstream views at the time the poem was written

I literally just quoted the poem. If anything, this thread is the most-interesting literary criticism of it I've seen. It's a Rorscach test of something, and I'm genuinely unsure what that something is.


This will be flagged just as much as the other one but still just saying - there's no such thing as "just quoted" in reality right? To be more concrete, quoting is always to support some sort of narrative, just look at all the quotes or citations in a typical research paper.

>I literally just quoted the poem

You and I both know that this is not your first day on the Internet. Are you really claiming to be unfamiliar with the fact that that the poem's most frequent use online is as an all-size-fits-all riposte against any and all immigration enforcement? What pfannkuchen said, "So it’s quite weird to reference that poem as if America is in danger of losing some virtue it used to have back at that time", very well describes its typical usage.


Even quoting the poem with approval does not imply any belief about popular opinions when it was written. People quote the Declaration of Independence knowing it was written by a slave owner.


The Declaration, and the Constitution, set out ideals and standards. That neither the country nor its citizens (including their authors) always live up to them does not invalidate their worthiness.

The Lazarus poem is, as I said, typically used in online debate as a universal cudgel. "By quoting this STUNNING AND BRAVE poem, I have 100% defeated your evil racist right-wing anti-migrant rhetoric! I don't have to provide the name of the author, the poem's name, the circumstances behind its writing, when and how it appeared on the pedestal, the standards every immigrant had to meet to pass through Ellis Island, or anything else! IT'S THAT POWERFUL!!!1!!!!!11"


> The Declaration, and the Constitution, set out ideals and standards. That neither the country nor its citizens (including their authors) always live up to them does not invalidate their worthiness.

The poem sets out ideals and standards. That neither the country nor its citizens (including their authors) always live up to them does not invalidate their worthiness.

> The Lazarus poem is, as I said, typically used in online debate as a universal cudgel. "By quoting this STUNNING AND BRAVE poem, I have 100% defeated your evil racist right-wing anti-migrant rhetoric! I don't have to provide the name of the author, the poem's name, the circumstances behind its writing, when and how it appeared on the pedestal, the standards every immigrant had to meet to pass through Ellis Island, or anything else! IT'S THAT POWERFUL!!!1!!!!!11"

The poem is famous. Most search engines are free. Are you equally histrionic when someone quotes the Declaration of Independence without title and author?


The poem was written to persuade. It is quite normal someone would find it persuasive or employ it to persuade others.


> being on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty, the poem was picked up as significant by history books and the media, I suppose

The history books picked it up after the media, which picked it up--in turn--after WWII.

WWII caused us to embrace our heritage as a nation of immigrants, emphasising our tolerance in the wake of the Holocaust. (The alternative was looking at what we did to the Indians in comparison with the Nazis.) The poem came up because the author was motivated to write it, in part, because she empathised with that era's Jewish immigrants from Europe. (Fleeing the pogroms.)

> was some fundraising exhibition

You're describing the fundraising that built the pedastal. The poem was donated to help pay for it. (France paid for the statue.)

This wasn't "some fundraising," it was the fundraising that built he damn thing. The U.S. government famously didn't pay a dime for the Statue of Liberty.


Okay but let's be real they're offering to put people in prison camps.


"Bukele later confirmed the agreement with Rubio on X, saying in a post, "We are willing to take in only convicted criminals (including convicted US citizens) into our mega-prison (CECOT) in exchange for a fee.""

The "tired, poor, huddled masses" will "breathe free" inside a mega prison?

"The wretched refuse of your teeming shore," send them along with proper payment to "CECOT". Sorry, we no longer accept Bitcoin.


Nice idea with indentured servitude and no welfare


this is pure horror.

this can’t be allowed to stand. it doesn’t matter the offenses, criminals have Constitutional rights El Salvador de facto does not grant them.

what the fuck are the Democratic governors and states doing right now? the union is being tortured and rewritten to authoritarians before our very eyes.


They had a problem that needed solving. Now a "bad cop" came in to solve it. They can just sit pretty and keep their "good cop" image.


if you’re not a Moscow bot I am in disbelief of you. do you not see where this road leads? this is not politics. this is a nightmare.


You asked “what the fuck are the Democratic governors and states doing right now?”

…and I think the reply answers the question (although I find the answer a horrifying thought as well).

My point is - I don’t think the person replying to you was endorsing the idea, just giving a plausible explanation for why there’s not an immediate uproar: perhaps some folks in government are actually okay with that. :(


Exactly, thank you.

I'm not endorsing the behavior, but think like a politician for a moment. Someone comes in and takes care of a legal and ethical mess. All you have to do is get out of the way and not interfere. Not only do you not get smeared with this mess - you even get to be a knight in shining armor who'll replace the bad guy later. And your problem stays gone. Seems like a no-brainer.


It’s outsourcing. Frankly, it’s really only an issue if they hold a US citizen and do not provide appropriate constitutional protections. That would be the same as any offshore provider not meeting a service commitment…you fire them and they are out the contract.

Not to sound insensitive, but if they are only holding noncitizen criminal deportees awaiting transport back to their home country and they are able to do that cheaper than we can in the US…I am have a tough time seeing a negative with this.


This has also been presented (in media with a certain slant) as "evil people will break apart families and put mommy and kiddo in different cells in Gitmo). In reality, the only people who have a chance of seeing the inside of a Gitmo cell are MS13 and Tren members. And why shouldn't they?

Why would we care what Democrats are doing? After having lost every branch of government, they can no longer be the adults in the room. The only option left to them is civil war, which obviously won't happen till things get much worse (if it can at all). What are Republicans doing to head this off? They can't all agree with this, can they??


Why wouldn't they? Surely they have nothing to fear "being sent off to a prison in Salvador is for the othered people"


> what the fuck are the Democratic governors and states doing right now?

Defying presidential orders. Suing to block them.


At this point, if you are a US citizen and not writing to your representatives every day to express your concerns about what is happening right now, you aren't a patriot.


My representatives shouldn't need my fucking letters!


They shouldn’t, but they do. I call mine each day.


And does that change their behavior or their votes?


Yeah, like, do they not know what to support or oppose here? (I think they're all pretty decided one way or the other.)


phone calls have more impact than letters


Dont think the president want to live in el salvador.


In a globalized world, every country specializes at what they can do best


Nothing special, just the secretary of state saying he's going to take "criminal" citizens and send them to overseas prisons. I'm sure they get to come home eventually, and it only applies after a conviction and all the appeals have failed, and it's only for "violent" citizens, not "enemies of the state" or "terrorists". I'm sure the foreign nation has even higher standards for their prisons than we do so nobody will get sick or die over there.


(if the sarcasm wasn't understood: exporting US prisoners outside the US breaks the 8th amendment).


Tbh i'm not convinced this was sarcasm


For comparison

https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-stat...

US prisons cost anywhere from 16k to 70k a year per person


This is becoming real life: https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no


Is this even legal? Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons?


> Eighth Amendment

>Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual". There's been challenges on this that essentially say "you can be cruel OR unusual, but not both". I'd love to see how they justify a police state foreign prison doesn't qualify as "cruel".


According to the now conservative majority on the Supreme Court, there is no such thing as cruel and unusual punishment once your in jail. SCOTUS and the eighth amendment aren't going to save us here, not anymore.

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-t... - https://archive.is/ZkWGP


The US has the death penalty, all implementations of which have been demonstrated to qualify as cruel by most people's definitions (e.g. the chemical method is not in any way based on science but rather pumping the victim full of overdoses of chemicals known to kill them, contrary to popular misconceptions it's not like being put down by a vet but more like suffocating until your brain shuts off).

Given the state of the US prison industrial complex, I also wouldn't be surprised if the prisons El Salvador would provide for US citizens are at least up to par during the likely contractually required inspections. They wouldn't need to be as good as the average US prison, they would only need to be no worse than the worst US prison.


> exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual"

How? I'm not loving this idea, but it's difficult to see why it's cruel or unusual at face value.


One reason is that it makes it impractical for any relatives to visit.


> Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons?

According to whom? A sovereign state has, by definition, no obligations to anything but itself.


* for as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties.


> as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties

Treaties are legally binding inasmuch as the signatories' legal systems treat them as such. The legal enforcement is entirely internal. Countries are constantly geting into fights over who isn't following such and such treaty properly.

(Like, look at North America right now. Or China in respect of UNCLOS.)


Case in point: the US has literally threatened to invade The Hague if any US citizens are ever arrested and put on trial there. Even if the US were a signatory, nobody involved would dare risking it.


The concept of a "responsibility to protect" is contentious in international law/relations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect


Given Trump's claims about moving people to Guantanamo (which is unfeasible on so many levels), this sounds like an opportunistic move by El Salvador.

The law professor cited seems to be judging the offer based on the current legal situation and relies on the meaning of "deportation" applying to this. It seems plausible to me that El Salvador and the US could agree on a flimsy legal fig leaf that redefines the facilities in El Salvador that would be used to house US citizen criminals as US territory with the El Salvadoran prison staff being contracted to operate the facilities. The US would only have to be careful to maintain some formal distinction between citizens and non-citizens "relocated" to El Salvador.

This would also establish closer ties between El Salvador and the US, which could benefit El Salvador's owning class economically.


This wasn't a random offer btw, Trump has been asking for it and is looking for a legal avenue

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-floats-f...


Good news!


> We are willing to take in only convicted criminals (including convicted US citizens) into our mega-prison (CECOT) in exchange for a fee.”

> El Salvador’s Terrorism Confinement Center, commonly referred to as CECOT, is the country’s largest and newest prison, with a maximum capacity of 40,000 inmates.

> “The fee would be relatively low for the US but significant for us, making our entire prison system sustainable,” he added.

They're still outsourcing jobs to foreign suppliers!!! (/s)


Beautiful. I hope European countries will use their service. We have our own bunch of criminal scum that live all too well on taxpayers money.


Oh no, the poor criminals.


Nice. We have some child rapists currently fighting deportation that we could send their from the UK.


Interesting move!

If they can demonstrate they would offer better conditions than 90% of US jails (private or public) and would cost less than half why not?

Could be voluntary too:

- Prisoners who want better conditions could ask to be moved to El Salvador for the duration of their stay

- Prisoners who have regular visitors or any other reason to stay within US just don't


"Asked", sure. Like how Musk is "asking" everyone in the government to resign?

This is Guantanamo Bay 2. With even less legal represenation and an ourtright overstep of the 8th amendment (no, you can't "ask" for a cruel and unusual punishment).


It really takes 2 minutes to look up the human rights violations the El Salvadorian government has been doing in the last couple of years. No need to craft this idealistic nonesense.


I’ll just stop you there. They’re not going to have better conditions.


It’s an offer

Trump can counter offer asking for a new jail just for American population and all the requirements/conditions to house American citizens

I don’t think lots of American prisons are that good to begin with anyway


Did Trump show interest ever in better conditions for prisoners?


if making the deal a reality means showing it's better in every way it will come up :)


Like they ask prisoners if they want to go die in wildfires for $1/hour? Neato




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