There's no way I am using a Chinese IDE with VSCode (w/ Coppilot) and Cursor existing after reading the privacy issues in the court documents with TikTok. Bytedance had some extremely overreaching expectations of data it wanted.
That being said, I am using (Chinese) Deepseek r1 because there isn't currently a free LLM on par with it. I am careful with what I share though, a little more so than with any others that are not locally fun.
I'm thinking about this the same way, if a bit more selfishly: as a non-US citizen, I might want to move to the US in the future.
Which is why I would like the US govt to have as little data as possible about me (who knows what the mainstream politics will look like, things that are very innocent today might be punishable by death in 10 years).
Chinese govt, on the other hand, can have my data freely, since I don't think I'll ever move to the Mainland China.
> (…) (who knows what the mainstream politics will look like, things that are very innocent today might be punishable by death in 10 years).
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think I’d ever consider moving to a country where I believed politics to be so unstable that an action could go from “very innocent” to “punishable by death” in the span of a decade.
Maybe it's just me but... personally I wouldn't move to a country in which more than half of the voters are pro a public jury-convicted criminal. I'm also reluctant to move to any country in which proper healthcare is reserved for the rich. I can't imagine moving to a country that is pro-life and pro-guns at the same time. A country that approves of, let alone encourages, getting rich by pump and dump of virtual freshly invented coins. Same sentiment i have about a country that approves of deportation of illegal immigrants, poor or rich, child or adult, criminal offender or not.
We’re talking about going from fully innocent and legal action to full on death penalty in just over two terms (depending on country). That seems quite a stretch for many countries where the death penalty was abolished.
It doesn’t seem plausible that in countries where even euthanasia isn’t allowed things could get so out of hand that the death penalty would not only be reimplemented but it would devolve so fast that you’d start executing people for things which aren’t even crimes right now.
Clearly the death penalty was not just an example, seeing as the reply from that same user made a good point about their own country becoming a war zone.
I recommend you stop assuming what other people meant and nitpicking for no discernible reason. The only one debating here is you, and you’re doing it with yourself.
Then you know nothing of how China operates its military or its intelligence gathering apparatus. Ask any of the parts of the world that disagree with China about their sovereignty…
...you realize the US is invited to be in those countries, right?
And why would you see enemy tanks on an island? What you do see are many many Chinese ships and planes, constantly violating Taiwanese air and sea boundaries.
Some of them exist against the will of the host country's government, for example in Cuba and Iraq, and Iraq's government is even democratically elected (albeit with issues)
That something else is even more toxic doesn't make poison not poison. It's not a choice between what poison you pick, but between accepting or rejecting poison.
A poison is not going to harm you unless it makes no contact with your body; what GP is saying is, regardless of which one is more potent, it's safer to pick the one you're least likely to ever find yourself near.
It's safer to not ingest any poison. You don't extinguish fire with gasoline because kerosene might be worse. You don't eat rat poison because fentanyl would be worse. It's a false dichotomy.
It's not a false dichotomy - the entire analogy to poison makes no sense, because US or China spying on people's activity on-line is currently a complete nothingburger. If anything, adtech is actually doing real harm to people this way, but that harm is still relatively small and indirect, which is why most people don't care.
> There's no way I am using a Chinese IDE with VSCode (w/ Coppilot) and Cursor existing after reading the privacy issues in the court documents with TikTok.
I have to say, on second reading, you are right because I basically overlooked that Copilot implies having no problem with being spied on by US corporations. That honestly escaped me.
But since you brought it up, for me mass surveillance and other abuses are simply a human rights issue more than anything. People can chose to not uphold theirs, or we can feel like we "have no other choice", but that doesn't change the human rights abuse, essentially. And we have no clue what the long term pay-off for everything being enmeshed into surveillance of every single data point, no matter how trivial in isolation it might be. And "I don't care about privacy, so let's not have privacy anymore, so nobody ever born will have privacy again" is not a decision anyone has the right to make, to put a point on it.
We all kinda ended up here, and I know it's not so easy, but that we don't have "fixed" it doesn't mean it's not broken, and it staying broken for a long time doesn't normalize it in my books. That people don't care is what raising awareness is for, after all.
And when people like Larry Ellison talk about everybody being on good behaviour because the AI will be always watching (to help everybody and make a great society, of course, because nothing could go wrong), basically, I think adtech isn't the only danger, and the effect of that would also not be "small and indirect". But it also underlines your point about what's the more direct threat to a US citizen.
And, logically - if we're worried about spying - it actually makes the most sense for average Chinese people to use US software and vice versa. The biggest threat to a person is always the police & military of their own country.
For example, China killed a lot of people. They were all Chinese.
I think you're unaware of just how aggressive China is. Look at their neighbours and their policies - they don't have a single friend because everyone is afraid of their bullying behaviour backed up by their military.
Look at conquered regions like Tibet and Xinjiang.
Look at how they set up police forces in foreign countries to keep an eye on Chinese citizens living abroad. Even having kidnapped and illegally held Chinese citizens in England because they posted anti-CCP messages on WeChat.
Look at countries like the Phillipines (not even a direct neighbour) who are trying to hold on to small fishing islands just off their coast because the CCP claimed those islands in the 1970s.
Remember a few years ago when they ran a week long military exercise around Taiwan... because a US representative spoke to the Taiwanese president. Sure I agree with you that the US also overstepped a line here, but for your response to be shelling the waters around the island is excessive to say the least.
Look at the aggressive nationalist and imperialist news they feed their own population, and the propaganda spread to make the Japanese seem like demons. Did you know there are several theme parks in China where children are encouraged to Bayonette a mannequin of Japanese Imperialist soldiers?
Call the US as bad as you like, but I've never seen a theme park where children are actively taught how to kill and demonise the Taliban or Nazis.
You could say all of that about the American empire.
We renamed it to the Gulf of America, talk about annexing Canada, own Hawaii, fund the colony of Israel, invented Manifest Destony, destabilize democracy via the CIA, firebombed Vietnam, etc etc etc
And don't talk to me abt Chinese spying when the NSA and Five Eyes hoovers up and processes the entire internet.
Re: propaganda, read your own comment. The American propaganda machine got you to demonize China pretty well
And to top it all off, despite having a much smaller population AMERICA HAS MORE PRISONERS THAN CHINA. Its insane!
In general I do agree (except for the recent Canada stuff - I believe it's more of a bluff than anything else)
But I want to respond to this:
> And to top it all off, despite having a much smaller population AMERICA HAS MORE PRISONERS THAN CHINA. Its insane
1. The US publically acknowledges who is in prison, China doesn't. You can be disappeared in China without anyone knowing.
2. The Chinese operate several Black prisons both within and without their borders. These are Prisons without actual sentences, laws or rights. The public doesn't even know of their existence. This is where you land up as a political prisoner in China.
3. The Chinese have placed thousands of Uigur muslims in "re-education camps" (not prisons) - many of whom are only guilty by association (i.e. there's no direct crime the CCP arrested them for, other than being a blood relative of someone who did commit one of these "crimes")
4. Chinese police are already spread thin enough dealing with all the political prisoners meaning there are many dangerous criminals who are freely committing crimes in China. The CCP keeps this information under tight wraps so as not to cause a panic. As a result the Chinese are a lot less cautious than they should be so (unofficial) crime levels are much higher than they should be. It's not uncommon to hear of (or see) Children who were kidnapped and had their limbs chopped off so they could beg more effectively - there has never been a widespread crackdown on this behaviour and many perpetrators are still walking the streets forcing children to beg for them.
5. Not to even talk about the prison organ harvesting claims made by several groups who have been persecuted by the CCP. From Falun Gong practitioners to Uigur muslims.
Also don't be lazy and just call this propaganda - I could easily do the same with other messages in this thread ("CCP propaganda") meaning it's not a strong argument to anyone on the fence / on the other side. Yes, it is very anti-China, but that's because I'm trying to bring it in contrast to the very anti-US message. I don't think either country is perfect and in fact I prefer to not live in (or near) either.
1 & 2: Wikipedia keeps an active list. Currently there are 15 held in Guantanamo bay. Could you provide me with a similar list of prisons + prisoners from China? (no because they intentionally keep it secret). I think the fact that we can name and put pressure on the US about this ~prison~ torture-camp makes enough of the argument for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_detainees_at_G...
4. No, and trying to use official sources unfortunately gives you an overly positive impression on China. This is one of the reasons it's so dangerous for an average citizen to live under a system which hides information - you are left without knowledge of how much danger you're in. If you think you're safe you're more likely to be taken advantage of.
There was an interesting case recently where CCP propaganda showed that other countries feared the Chinese passport (trying to boost nationalism and pride in China). This has led to several Chinese citizens getting robbed abroad, they then hold their passport in the attackers face thinking it will scare them off. Only for the passport to also get stolen.
6. Absolutely, the direct danger from the US isn't from the US itself but the governments it backs up (indirect danger?). Whether it's because the government is incompetent or evil, history shows that whatever the US props up is likely to collapse as soon as they leave but the country is in a much worse position than if the US never involved itself.
The US is largely talk, vs. the substantial action China takes and has taken against territories it considers its own.
The US importantly has a robust and independent judiciary where a fair trial is infinitely more likely than in China. Even for foreigners, the US legal system is accessible, understandable, and weildable for protection. It’s far from perfect, but 100x what you’d get in China.
I would like to highlight the small bit of positive in the American system. I don't support the removal of abortion law, nor do I like mixing religion with politics. But, due to the system that exists in the USA, even though the government removed the right to abortion, the individual states can still support it and form their own laws around it. However, a similar situation in other countries would result in complete removal without any option.
Was Iraq also talk when US invaded it in violation of international law? Not to mention overthrowing democratically elected governments in South America.
Which countries did China invade in the last 3 decades?
They got u there tho,
I'm with you that there's a ton of China hate deliberately stoked by US Govt and media, mostly as a distraction from out problems at home.
But there's nothing to defend about Tiananmen Square
No, cuz its flagged now, but the vibe I got was that the tank driver wasn't willing to run over the guy, and presumably thus wasn't so violent an incident as we make it out to be
I feel like the better move is to acknowledge that they have done and are doing atrocities but that its easier to stop the very similar ones we're doing than the ones being done halfway across the globe
They sent in the goons to beat up and arrest students protesting genocide or climate change too.
Hasn't gotten to tanks yet but truthfully it doesn't need to because we both know those protests aren't doing anything. If there was a credible student uprising it would happen here.
Taliban is a terrorist group, painting them in a bad light is factual.
Nazis, also factual.
So I don't think I fully understand the last sentence. Do you mean it's not appropriate for specifically _minors_ to have a theme park about how Nazis are bad guys? Because there's a lot of western content to this effect, including movies and video games, which are also accessible to children.
If anything, Chinese content guidelines usually prohibit graphical display of violence, so it's much more of a milquetoast thing than e.g. South Park.
This is fair and I think reflects my personal opinions on keeping children out of politics.
My point is more to do with seeing little kids being dressed up in CCP uniforms, handed a bayonette, and told to charge at the Japanese. I also agree we see this around the world "including movies and video games, which are also accessible to children" but I draw the line where it's being encouraged by the government to do these actions in person. Combine this with the anti-japanese rhetoric taught in primary education and it's a nasty combination*. [1]
Another thing to consider is that children are generally not given access to games/movies/whatever that have such mature themes by their parents.
I'd make this same argument if I saw US children being dressed up as US soldiers and asked to charge at Nazi "soldiers". Even though we can both (hopefully) agree that Nazi ideologies are/were disgusting and deserve to be bayonetted.
> If anything, Chinese content guidelines usually prohibit graphical display of violence, so it's much more of a milquetoast thing than e.g. South Park.
Not when the Japanese or another of China's enemies are involved. Then it's gloves off.
* Also I do want to give some slack here too, the Japanese have never acknowledged or apologised for their attrocities in WW2.
Fact check: China has strong ties with Central Asian states, Russia, NK, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Pakistan. Regional tensions mainly involve US-allied nations.
Can you compare the military spending of one vs the other and report back please?
I never said china has never done anything bad. There is no such country on the planet.
China doing bad stuff doesn't make the bad stuff the other countries do disappear, and my point remains valid on which one is more of a threat to nationals of other countries.
I'm not making the claim that the US is innocent because China did all this stuff. I'm making the claim that I would feel much safer living on the Mexican-American, Canadian-American border or even in Panama, than I would near any of China's current conflicts. And that China is just as aggressive (if not more so) with their neighbours.
At least if the Americans win I don't have to be worried about becoming a political prisoner, forced into re-education camps, or having my organs harvested.
Also there are many more conflicts currently where China is involved than the US.
Living in these countries sounds to me like a nightmare (and I am from a 3rd world country). I’d prefer China because the ancient culture, history and thriving economy.
3rd world country or not - I hope you appreciate that you are incredibly fortunate for "ancient culture" and "history" to be 2 of your top 3 considerations for where to live and the quality of life that would give you.
Perhaps revalidate the "thriving economy" assertion before taking the plunge though (and be mindful of how hyper-localised that is).
I feel the need to point out that while many people might understand the point you're trying to make, the way this question is phrased doesn't do the best job of conveying it.
If I was presented with two options: waking up tomorrow as the child of a poor farmer in a third-world country, or waking up as one of Donald Trump's children, I would definitely choose the latter. However, that doesn't mean that I trust Trump more than I would trust the farmer. In other words, quality of life (or a preferred way of living) are not inherently tied to trust, morality, or anything like that.
Why did you choose to wake up as the child of a peasant in one country but the child of the president in another?
Quality of life is inherently tied to trust and morality - both in terms of the effect of fear (a lack of trust) or isolation (a lack of moral consensus, or equality and sense of shared belonging).
This is probably true, but at least in principle one of those foreign nations stands for free speech and democracy and the other stands for censorship and authoritarianism.
[Edit: hey Europeans commenting and downvoting below, note the words "in principle" in the above comment and evaluate which of the two countries do or do not purport to stand for these things despite whatever your hot take may be on the current moment.]
Huh? Does that negate the missing democracy, the political distrust and the political censorship within your country?
I am happy for you and your flags.
However I didn't claim that china is more "free" just that the US definitely isn't seen as that from the outside anymore. It's not always a direct competition
Given the last few days, As a EU citizen I'm not so sure such distinction is fully accurate anymore. And I'm pretty sure in 2 to 3 years from today the distinction will be even less noticeable.
I wouldn't trust a US data company to not capitulate to... "personal requests" by Musk or Trump any more than I trust it not happening in an hungarian, russian, turkish or chinese one with their respective leadership (official or otherwise).
That's actually funny.. considering that the main reason TikTok ban was proposed was the lack of censorship of sensitive topics like a certain genocide
I would rather let Chinese companies take my data than US/EU ones where I have bank accounts. Unless you are a super important, influential person, you shouldn't worry about China.
As far as I can tell this is operated out of Singapore, which is not some communist backwater, according to the law there and on top of US big tech infrastructure. The models this editor work with are by Anthropic and OpenAI both US companies.
Singapore or not, these TOS grant you nada in terms of privacy. You'd be a fool to use this: We may use Your Content to provide the Services to you and to other users, including without limitation troubleshooting, diagnostics, security and safety reviews, and customer support requests. You hereby grant to us, our affiliates and our third party partners (“SPRING Parties”) an unconditional, irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, transferable, perpetual and worldwide license, to reproduce, use, and modify Your Content in connection with the provision and improvement of the Services and its underlying technologies, as well as for the SPRING Parties' respective business operations, in each case, to the extent permitted by applicable laws.
One nuance to consider regarding Bytedance: TikTok’s CEO is also based in Singapore, but is a former Xiaomi executive who worked in Beijing for years. The firm’s employees in places like Singapore could be coerced by the government of China because of their friends, family, assets there.
Employees of Bytedance (and other Chinese companies) have to deal with draconian employee rules and agreements that tie them back to the rules of their Chinese mainland parent corporation and the Chinese government itself. For example look at the details that came out in this lawsuit against TikTok, where employees have to agree to uphold Chinese national interests, uphold socialism, etc.
I think you are contradicting yourself! Also, why add "China" to a product when you don't attach "America" to the other. If you are thinking politics, fine, else we are in for tech advancement!
Early TikTok was basically a standard Chinese startup in terms of how they collected data to optimize the app... It's not because they cared about what "you" are doing.
The Chinese tech ecosystem is just more competitive than the US one.
Most social media companies have been careless with data until they got public backlash though... TikTok's systems are probably more secure today than anyone else's... Because of the backlash.
Absolutely and verifiably false. WeChat became so important to the CCPs surveillance interests that it was essentially nationalized; and other apps that grow to its scale basically suffer the same fate. The only reason that hasn’t happened overtly to TikTok is because it’s an international product, so instead the nationalization happens discretely.
It is verifiably not controlled by the CCP... Refer Project Texas... And all US data already being on Oracle's cloud so that all access can be monitored (same for auditing of all their algorithms for any kind of programmed bias).
WeChat is an app that works inside China, so obviously it's subject to Chinese laws.
All countries have some restrictions on what is and is not okay to have on online platforms. China just adds in "social disruption" alongside content that could promote violence (which would be blocked on Facebook, etc. also)
You need to not just drink in propaganda... When something just "can't be done" (because it is being monitored), then it just doesn't matter even if you have ill intent.
You don't hear about the other side because people like me usually get murdered in cold blood there is no difference but for you to believe that is a singularity like me being treated like a human :)
Oh, so the Chinese governement is taking time from managing their huge country to stop that particular company from selling its recommendation algorithm.
That being said, I am using (Chinese) Deepseek r1 because there isn't currently a free LLM on par with it. I am careful with what I share though, a little more so than with any others that are not locally fun.