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Works for me on FF.

As a EU citizen who no longer lives there, in part because of the poor salaries, I can't say I'm surprised by the EU 'brain drain'. The EU published a paper on this in 2024, about how they are leaking talent because the high-talented individuals by and large don't stick around.

Not just salaries, the other issue is regulation and moving slowly.

EDIT, the doc I referred to: https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/97e481fd-2dc3...



To add to the not-so-great salaries, there are high taxes and social fees + VAT of round 20%…

OTOH, the typical/mean competence in SW seems relatively low if compared with high salaries countries.

For example, as I was hiring last year, it was just impossible to get a candidate that have even heard about functional programming, or anything outside Python and C.

A friend of mine was hiring EEs, and the best one he found (hold to your seat!) said an inductor is to resistors in series.

There are exceptional good people, but they seem to bot be free in the market.


I work in Germany and my colleagues are all competent. Maybe the difference is that competent people are hired very early (before they become very competent?) and then tend to stick to the company that trained them?


That is what I said. I know very competent people. But if you search for new people, is HARD to get good ones.


According to

https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#

and

https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000

Someone on £100k a year in the UK will keep £68,561

Someone on £100k a year in California will keep £69,291.73

That doesn't feel a massive difference.


California has the worst taxation scheme in the US, living and working there is not the way to get ahead financially in America anymore


According to that link, income tax in NYC at $200k is even higher ($69,160 tax rather than $68,504 in San Francisco)


In Germany you'd keep less then 50K of that.


https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator says you'd keep £57,705, £10k less.


Oh oh hold your horses. That is TAX, above TAX in Germany you will have to pay "social loads" for health, pension fonds, church, etc... You get to keep much less than that!

Even when in UK is the same, you still have to pay the TV-tax, VAT 19%, fuel prices are high because of gigantic taxes, all of those do not exist in USA.

Also in Germany public health is getting more expensive (there was an increase of 1% this year) and worse (although still good). Also education is getting more expensive slowly.


it is just plain wrong


But earning 'only' £100k would be on the lower end in Cali.


"The median salary for full-time workers in California is $66,986" -- https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california

Salary difference isn't because of tax (employer NI contributions in the UK are high - £12,500 for £100k, but employer healthcare is high in the US)

The assertion was that employee taxes were high in europe. Now they may be in mainland, but in the UK that's not particularly true, not at 100k range anyway.

On the California median salary of $67k, in the US you keep $51,915, in the UK you keep $51,741, practically the same.

At $500k, in California you'd keep $287k, in the UK $279k, so 3% difference there at the 8-times median CA wage, I'll admit that.

At that salary though the employer contribution to tax in the UK is significantly higher than healthcare contribution in the US, so sure, probably around 10% difference in total.

There's basically no difference in income taxes between the UK and US, that doesn't explain the massive salary difference.


In the UK, taxes are abnormally high in the 100k-125k band.


I thought this discussion was focused on engineering. Median salary of 67k for SDEs sounds .. low? Any Californians want to weigh in? :)

EDIT: median salary in SF: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra... would be >350k USD.


The assertion was there are high taxes. There aren't, even for those on $500k a year.


Gotcha, sorry, missed that that was your point. Agreed, the taxes issue is kind of blown out of proportion. I'd rather pay more taxes and have good (/ cheap) healthcare and education to be honest.


Either the pay you offered was too low or your recruiters didn't do their job. Multiple functional languages have been created in Europe, there is a big and competent Rust (which is not exactly an fp language, but is not Python or C either) community etc.


> Multiple functional languages have been created in Europe

Which ones? just out of curiosity, because is totally irrelevant for the discussion: The car was invented in Germany, and for long years the best cars were German, but right now the industry is falling down non-stop... So there may be many people inventing whatever languages, when you search people to program, you just do not find good candidates.

I'm not arguing that people in Germany does not know functional languages. I just say, if you search somebody, is hard to find. The pay was damn good 80k/year. I was in a company in south Germany, maybe that is the difference?


> Which ones?

OCaml, Scala, Coq, Isabelle ...

> The pay was damn good 80k/year.

Check levels.fyi. Comments say it's skewed upwards, but that's what people working for international companies with respective skill set get. Employment is not marriage, people are always ready for a change if you offer conditions better that what they have. You wouldn't find a graduate in the US for this money.

And I bet you are on site or at most hybrid, so are restricted to people living in your city if not town/village.


> And I bet you are on site or at most hybrid, so are restricted to people living in your city if not town/village.

Yes absolutely. That is why I said it was in south. That is a big problem. I know for a fact, that in Berlin there are much more good SW devs. but here around they are scarse.


Oh, I missed that part. Berlin has experienced a COL explosion recently, so not sure how easy it is to find a good engineer for 80K. Dresden would do probably, but south is also crazy expensive AFAIK.


ML? I think.


Yeah, that too. I've listed some above, but also forgot Erlang, that's pretty important one.


I'd love to make more money, but if it requires moving to the US, I am instantly much less interested. Not that I consider myself particularly high-talented.


Where are these EU people going to?


Is a whole circle, people from IT and SP go to DE, from DE to CH, from CH to USA, or Australia.


Australia is really not that attractive software wise

Seems to attract mostly the British and the Irish with an interest for sunnier but English speaking places


US is a big one, CA maybe secondary.




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